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Official Trade Thread - Part XLI

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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1921 » by nate33 » Tue Sep 7, 2021 9:15 pm

Ruzious wrote:Here's a trade getting us Miles Bridges - sort of sneaking in the backway of a major trade between Philly and Charlotte so nobody notices Tommy pulled a fast one:

We get Miles Bridges (5.4) and Paul Reed (1.5) for Corey Kispert (3.4) and Deni Avdija (4.7).

Charlotte gets Ben Simmons (33.0) and Corey Kispert (3.4) for Gordon Hayward (29.9) and Miles Bridges (5.4).

Philly gets Gordon Hayward (29.9) and Deni Avdija (4.7) for Ben Simmons (33.0) and Paul Reed (1.5).

Washington - gets a dynamic up and coming 3 - improving their weakest position and making them a team that can get 45 plus wins this season and can gradually develop into a future star. They also get a young developmental PF/smallball center in Reed.

Charlotte - gets a needed star in Simmons who plays wherever he's needed the most. It's ok that he's playing with a PG. Plus they get a deadeye 3 point shooter to help their spacing and offset Simmons 1 weakness.

Philly - gets a shooter/creator at the 3 who they can count on for roughly 20/5/5 every game, made 41.5% of his 3's, and helps in their win now mode - along with a young 6'10ish play-making swing forward they can develop. That's not full value for Simmons, but they can't expect to get full value, and this gives them a chance to stay a contender without the drama. Oh, and Hayward's much better than whatever Pif will say. You can turn the volume down when he inevitably trashes him again.

I'm pretty sure Philly and Charlotte would cut us out of the deal. Philly would trade Simmons and stuff (Maxey? future picks?) for Hayward and Bridges and be done with it.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1922 » by Ruzious » Tue Sep 7, 2021 9:44 pm

nate33 wrote:
Ruzious wrote:Here's a trade getting us Miles Bridges - sort of sneaking in the backway of a major trade between Philly and Charlotte so nobody notices Tommy pulled a fast one:

We get Miles Bridges (5.4) and Paul Reed (1.5) for Corey Kispert (3.4) and Deni Avdija (4.7).

Charlotte gets Ben Simmons (33.0) and Corey Kispert (3.4) for Gordon Hayward (29.9) and Miles Bridges (5.4).

Philly gets Gordon Hayward (29.9) and Deni Avdija (4.7) for Ben Simmons (33.0) and Paul Reed (1.5).

Washington - gets a dynamic up and coming 3 - improving their weakest position and making them a team that can get 45 plus wins this season and can gradually develop into a future star. They also get a young developmental PF/smallball center in Reed.

Charlotte - gets a needed star in Simmons who plays wherever he's needed the most. It's ok that he's playing with a PG. Plus they get a deadeye 3 point shooter to help their spacing and offset Simmons 1 weakness.

Philly - gets a shooter/creator at the 3 who they can count on for roughly 20/5/5 every game, made 41.5% of his 3's, and helps in their win now mode - along with a young 6'10ish play-making swing forward they can develop. That's not full value for Simmons, but they can't expect to get full value, and this gives them a chance to stay a contender without the drama. Oh, and Hayward's much better than whatever Pif will say. You can turn the volume down when he inevitably trashes him again.

I'm pretty sure Philly and Charlotte would cut us out of the deal. Philly would trade Simmons and stuff (Maxey? future picks?) for Hayward and Bridges and be done with it.

Maybe stuff - but not Maxey. Once Philly trades Simmons, Maxey becomes more valuable to them. His weakness is outside shooting - same as Simmons' - it makes no sense to trade them both - especially to the same team. Charlotte would probably want a young shooter to go along with Simmons, and Philly doesn't have an extra shooter to spare.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1923 » by payitforward » Tue Sep 7, 2021 11:19 pm

Ruzious wrote:Here's a trade getting us Miles Bridges - sort of sneaking in the backway of a major trade between Philly and Charlotte so nobody notices Tommy pulled a fast one:

We get Miles Bridges (5.4) and Paul Reed (1.5) for Corey Kispert (3.4) and Deni Avdija (4.7).

Charlotte gets Ben Simmons (33.0) and Corey Kispert (3.4) for Gordon Hayward (29.9) and Miles Bridges (5.4).

Philly gets Gordon Hayward (29.9) and Deni Avdija (4.7) for Ben Simmons (33.0) and Paul Reed (1.5).

Washington - gets a dynamic up and coming 3 - improving their weakest position and making them a team that can get 45 plus wins this season and can gradually develop into a future star. They also get a young developmental PF/smallball center in Reed.

Charlotte - gets a needed star in Simmons who plays wherever he's needed the most. It's ok that he's playing with a PG. Plus they get a deadeye 3 point shooter to help their spacing and offset Simmons 1 weakness.

Philly - gets a shooter/creator at the 3 who they can count on for roughly 20/5/5 every game, made 41.5% of his 3's, and helps in their win now mode - along with a young 6'10ish play-making swing forward they can develop. That's not full value for Simmons, but they can't expect to get full value, and this gives them a chance to stay a contender without the drama. Oh, and Hayward's much better than whatever Pif will say. You can turn the volume down when he inevitably trashes him again.

Do I talk about you that way?

I like this trade, but we aren't required for it to happen.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1924 » by FAH1223 » Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:58 pm

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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1925 » by pcbothwel » Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:48 pm

FAH1223 wrote:
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I could not agree more. There are too many smart people on this board that have followed too many sports for too long. At the elite level, its all between the ears. Do you think Tiger was the most physically talented golfer? Brady with Football? No, not particularly. But they are ferocious competitors that worked at their craft and had immense belief in their ability.

Its strange to me that Ben gets a Pass. Have people looked at Trez Harrell's stat line over the past 4 years? Absolutely elite for a Center. But he went from getting a potential 18-20M/year, to the MLE, to depth expiring...all in 12-15 months... Why? Because it became apparent that his play style wasnt conducive to winning in the playoffs.

Russ appears to have the same problem, and its routinely discussed.
But for Ben, people keep looking at his regular season awards & stat line as a way to prove his "Star" value.

His rookie year he supposed to miss about half the season, but because his contract called for him to get a 5M bonus from Nike if he earned ROY, he sat out the entire year so that he would eligible the following year as he'd still be a "Rookie". Sorry, but he's a fraud.

Since then, he has played 4 straight year and 10k minutes of high level basketball on a team that won 52 games/year over that 4 years. And what has he done in those 4 years?

Less rebounds, worse shooting, worse AST:TOV ratio, less blocks, worse BPM, on lower usage.

I would trade Kuz, Harrell, and Deni/Kispert for him at the deadline... and thats it.
Keep betting on the Harden's, Kyrie's and Ben Simmons of the world. Unapologetic, narcissist that have been babied since they were young teens and have no concept of selflessness, humility, or accountability.

To me its clear. Kobe, Beal, Lebron, Curry, Russ, Kawhi... Men comfortable in their own skin. Found a good women and married them and had children early in their 20's because they knew the balance and fulfillment it would provide to them. Those are the guys I bet on.
And not to say being a bachelor somehow omits you from this group (See Jimmy Butler and Giannis). But it is certainly an indicator of certain personality traits that I like to see in an athlete that is the face of your franchise.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1926 » by payitforward » Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:39 pm

Some to agree with some to disagree with in your thoughtful post, pcbothwei.

First off, what made Tiger great was the low scores he posted -- i.e. his numbers. I don't care how "ferocious" he was: either the numbers are there or they aren't there.

Ben Simmons' numbers are there, & that is what makes him a tremendous player, the fact that those numbers are there. Period.

That doesn't mean I want to trade for him. An entirely different matter. & some of the points you make towards the end of your post support giving him a pass.

But, in that case, why would you want to trade for him?
pcbothwel wrote:...I would trade Kuz, Harrell, and Deni/Kispert for him ...


Oh, & on a different subject, it looks like you mean to suggest that Deni & Kispert are somehow about equivalent. Or is that not what you mean?
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1927 » by Ruzious » Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:43 pm

I would bet pretty much any amount of money that Philly won't do any better in the playoffs this year after they trade Ben - even with young players like Maxey and Thybulle - who should improve - on the roster. It's like people didn't even notice that Embiid showed no energy in games 6 and 7 against the Hawks - and had 8 to's in each game. Fact is - they didn't notice because it didn't fit what they wanted to see. People want to write off Ben because he didn't carry Philly at age 24 in the playoffs... lol. He's probably not even going to be good enough to be a first ballot HOFER - what a loser!
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1928 » by payitforward » Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:49 pm

Ruzious wrote:I would bet pretty much any amount of money that Philly won't do any better in the playoffs this year after they trade Ben - even with young players like Maxey and Thybulle - who should improve - on the roster. It's like people didn't even notice that Embiid showed no energy in games 6 and 7 against the Hawks - and had 8 to's in each game. Fact is - they didn't notice because it didn't fit what they wanted to see. People want to write off Ben because he didn't carry Philly at age 24 in the playoffs... lol. He's probably not even going to be good enough to be a first ballot HOFER - what a loser!

This is on the money.

Ben Simmons came into the NBA & was one of the top few PGs in the league as a rookie. That's still what he is.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1929 » by DCZards » Fri Sep 10, 2021 10:29 pm

Ruzious wrote:I would bet pretty much any amount of money that Philly won't do any better in the playoffs this year after they trade Ben - even with young players like Maxey and Thybulle - who should improve - on the roster. It's like people didn't even notice that Embiid showed no energy in games 6 and 7 against the Hawks - and had 8 to's in each game. Fact is - they didn't notice because it didn't fit what they wanted to see. People want to write off Ben because he didn't carry Philly at age 24 in the playoffs... lol. He's probably not even going to be good enough to be a first ballot HOFER - what a loser!

How Philly does in the playoffs if they trade Simmons will depend on who they get for him in a trade. It ain't like Ben can't be replaced by player(s) who are capable of making Philly as good (or better) than they are with Ben.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1930 » by Ruzious » Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:14 am

DCZards wrote:
Ruzious wrote:I would bet pretty much any amount of money that Philly won't do any better in the playoffs this year after they trade Ben - even with young players like Maxey and Thybulle - who should improve - on the roster. It's like people didn't even notice that Embiid showed no energy in games 6 and 7 against the Hawks - and had 8 to's in each game. Fact is - they didn't notice because it didn't fit what they wanted to see. People want to write off Ben because he didn't carry Philly at age 24 in the playoffs... lol. He's probably not even going to be good enough to be a first ballot HOFER - what a loser!

How Philly does in the playoffs if they trade Simmons will depend on who they get for him in a trade. It ain't like Ben can't be replaced by player(s) who are capable of making Philly as good (or better) than they are with Ben.

Like who? It ain't like they'll get someone like Lillard for him.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1931 » by payitforward » Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:08 am

Well, I suppose if you make a trade you hope to get back as much value in players as you give up. But, maybe the way to accomplish that is not to talk down the guy you're trying to move...?
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1932 » by Dat2U » Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:56 am

pcbothwel wrote:
FAH1223 wrote:
Read on Twitter


I could not agree more. There are too many smart people on this board that have followed too many sports for too long. At the elite level, its all between the ears. Do you think Tiger was the most physically talented golfer? Brady with Football? No, not particularly. But they are ferocious competitors that worked at their craft and had immense belief in their ability.

Its strange to me that Ben gets a Pass. Have people looked at Trez Harrell's stat line over the past 4 years? Absolutely elite for a Center. But he went from getting a potential 18-20M/year, to the MLE, to depth expiring...all in 12-15 months... Why? Because it became apparent that his play style wasnt conducive to winning in the playoffs.

Russ appears to have the same problem, and its routinely discussed.
But for Ben, people keep looking at his regular season awards & stat line as a way to prove his "Star" value.

His rookie year he supposed to miss about half the season, but because his contract called for him to get a 5M bonus from Nike if he earned ROY, he sat out the entire year so that he would eligible the following year as he'd still be a "Rookie". Sorry, but he's a fraud.

Since then, he has played 4 straight year and 10k minutes of high level basketball on a team that won 52 games/year over that 4 years. And what has he done in those 4 years?

Less rebounds, worse shooting, worse AST:TOV ratio, less blocks, worse BPM, on lower usage.

I would trade Kuz, Harrell, and Deni/Kispert for him at the deadline... and thats it.
Keep betting on the Harden's, Kyrie's and Ben Simmons of the world. Unapologetic, narcissist that have been babied since they were young teens and have no concept of selflessness, humility, or accountability.

To me its clear. Kobe, Beal, Lebron, Curry, Russ, Kawhi... Men comfortable in their own skin. Found a good women and married them and had children early in their 20's because they knew the balance and fulfillment it would provide to them. Those are the guys I bet on.
And not to say being a bachelor somehow omits you from this group (See Jimmy Butler and Giannis). But it is certainly an indicator of certain personality traits that I like to see in an athlete that is the face of your franchise.


If you wanna call Ben underachieving based on his talent level, fine. If you want to say he's a relative disappointment compared to the hype coming out, fine. If you want to say he hasn't improved significantly since he first came into the league, fine. But Ben Simmons is still a very very good player and immediate game changer. Unfortunately he did not become LeBron or even Magic so folks gotta kill em for that. But if you took anyone off the Wizards outside of Beal and replaced them with Simmons we'd become a 50 win team. You take Simmons off of Philly and as Ruz said, they are no longer a contender.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1933 » by Ruzious » Sat Sep 11, 2021 11:09 am

pcbothwel wrote:To me its clear. Kobe, Beal, Lebron, Curry, Russ, Kawhi... Men comfortable in their own skin. Found a good women and married them and had children early in their 20's because they knew the balance and fulfillment it would provide to them. Those are the guys I bet on.
And not to say being a bachelor somehow omits you from this group (See Jimmy Butler and Giannis). But it is certainly an indicator of certain personality traits that I like to see in an athlete that is the face of your franchise.

Do you remember what Kobe was going through when he was Ben's age?
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1934 » by pcbothwel » Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:12 pm

payitforward wrote:Ben Simmons' numbers are there, & that is what makes him a tremendous player, the fact that those numbers are there. Period.
------
Oh, & on a different subject, it looks like you mean to suggest that Deni & Kispert are somehow about equivalent. Or is that not what you mean?


1) I just pointed out that Simmons has either stagnated or gotten worse across the board. Im not sure how you see a "Tremendous" player. I simply see an extremely talented, but flawed one.
2) Deni & Kispert probably have the same amount of value, but Im sure it changes depending on who you ask.

Dat2U wrote:If you want to say he hasn't improved significantly since he first came into the league, fine.


Ugghhh... He hasnt improved AT ALL, let alone significantly.


I dont think what I am saying is unclear or misguided. Point out a player in the league that made zero improvements from 21-25 in over 10k minutes.
Now, which of those players made any sort of significant jump after 25? Fact is, Simmons is closer to Dejounte Murray or Rubio than he is to Lebron or Giannis.
If you look at Enes Kanter's stat lines over the past 5-6 years you would think he's a top 5 Big in the league. But his scoring efficiency and rebounding cant overcome his liabilities as a defender.
Similarly, Simmons is a terror in the open court and as a versatile defender, but inability to shoot outside 10 feet and ineffectiveness in the half court limit his upside.

Give me a 22 y/o Vanderbilt on a 3/12M contract than a 25 y/o Simmons at 10X the salary, plus the outgoing assets to acquire him.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1935 » by pcbothwel » Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:27 pm

Ruzious wrote:
pcbothwel wrote:To me its clear. Kobe, Beal, Lebron, Curry, Russ, Kawhi... Men comfortable in their own skin. Found a good women and married them and had children early in their 20's because they knew the balance and fulfillment it would provide to them. Those are the guys I bet on.
And not to say being a bachelor somehow omits you from this group (See Jimmy Butler and Giannis). But it is certainly an indicator of certain personality traits that I like to see in an athlete that is the face of your franchise.

Do you remember what Kobe was going through when he was Ben's age?


Bringing up a single allegation of assault shows how superficial you viewed that statement. Kobe locked him self in the gym morning, noon, and night to become the greatest player in the world. Simmons locks himself in his mansion for hours to become the greatest IG influencer in the world.

Fact is, Simmons will always leave you wanting more. His play style also forces other lineup/roster issues as well, but he is so talented that its worth being slightly disappointed at times and the lineup adjustments.
HOWEVER, the scale tilts towards the other end when you have to pay him 1/3rd of your salary cap as well as the litany of assets that Morey wants. With no Beal or Dame, some team will squint as hard as they can to see the Ben that can shoot, and they'll pay for it.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1936 » by payitforward » Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:36 pm

Dat2U wrote:If you wanna call Ben underachieving based on his talent level, fine. If you want to say he's a relative disappointment compared to the hype coming out, fine. If you want to say he hasn't improved significantly since he first came into the league, fine. But Ben Simmons is still a very very good player and immediate game changer. Unfortunately he did not become LeBron or even Magic so folks gotta kill em for that. But if you took anyone off the Wizards outside of Beal and replaced them with Simmons we'd become a 50 win team. You take Simmons off of Philly and as Ruz said, they are no longer a contender.

I'd call this completely accurate.

Ben Simmons hasn't gotten a lot better since his rookie year. Then again, if you are at the productivity level overall of Chris Paul & Steph Curry as a rookie, i.e. one of the 3 best point guards in the league (maybe the best one), there isn't a whole lot of room to improve overall.

When Philly trades him -- for a lot less than he's worth -- & proceed to become a significantly worse team, we'll get to read lots of people here trying to explain that it's really for other reasons, not b/c Ben is gone.

& when the team that acquires him proceeds to win a whole bunch more games than they did last year, we'll get to read the explanations of how that's not b/c of Ben being gone.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1937 » by Ruzious » Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:27 am

pcbothwel wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
pcbothwel wrote:To me its clear. Kobe, Beal, Lebron, Curry, Russ, Kawhi... Men comfortable in their own skin. Found a good women and married them and had children early in their 20's because they knew the balance and fulfillment it would provide to them. Those are the guys I bet on.
And not to say being a bachelor somehow omits you from this group (See Jimmy Butler and Giannis). But it is certainly an indicator of certain personality traits that I like to see in an athlete that is the face of your franchise.

Do you remember what Kobe was going through when he was Ben's age?


Bringing up a single allegation of assault shows how superficial you viewed that statement. Kobe locked him self in the gym morning, noon, and night to become the greatest player in the world. Simmons locks himself in his mansion for hours to become the greatest IG influencer in the world.

Fact is, Simmons will always leave you wanting more. His play style also forces other lineup/roster issues as well, but he is so talented that its worth being slightly disappointed at times and the lineup adjustments.
HOWEVER, the scale tilts towards the other end when you have to pay him 1/3rd of your salary cap as well as the litany of assets that Morey wants. With no Beal or Dame, some team will squint as hard as they can to see the Ben that can shoot, and they'll pay for it.

Poopooing that "single allegation of assault" is a bit ridiculous; don't ya think? It could have ended his career. Even being innocent, it was certainly an indication that he was far from living a noble lifestyle at the time. The gym wasn't the only thing he was locking in.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1938 » by payitforward » Sun Sep 12, 2021 3:06 am

It seems strange to me -- no, better, it's just that I simply don't understand -- the high level of judgment Ben Simmons causes to arise in a number of you. There's an awful lot of moralizing goes on around this young man.

Basketball is a brilliantly entertaining sport to watch. The guys who play in the NBA are extraordinary athletes. They are incredibly special.

Special in that way -- but in no other. For the rest they are just on the ordinary spectrum of personalities you might find anywhere in the world. Just as there are few ideal heroes in the usual run of people you meet there are few of them playing basketball. The same at the other end of the spectrum.

So a description like "...Unapologetic, narcissist ...babied since they were young teens ...no concept of selflessness, humility, or accountability" for example... that's a caricature not a description of a real human being.

It's not up to me to correct it. I don't own the truth, alas. But it's hard to take that kind of stuff seriously....
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1939 » by badinage » Sun Sep 12, 2021 3:32 am

^This is wisdom. Thank you.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1940 » by payitforward » Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:02 pm

Thanks.

Naturally, the moment after I wrote the post, I thought "...well I'm as guilty of 'overdoing it' as anyone else, so I should just shut up," but I left it there all the same.

For clarity, I'm not criticizing anyone, certainly not pcbothwei, whose words I quoted & who is one of my very favorite participants on this board. We are all suckers for the hero/villain paradigm.
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