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Wizards trade for Aaron Holiday

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Re: Wizards trade for Aaron Holiday 

Post#81 » by leswizards » Tue Aug 3, 2021 3:58 am

Kanyewest wrote:
long suffrin' boulez fan wrote:Continues a long Boulez tradition of getting the lesser brother.

Harvey Grant
Brent Price
Aaron Holiday


Robin Lopez
Markieff Morris (was considered better when we acquired him but ended up worse)


They had both mark and Brent price. But mark was injured and played almost no games for the bullets, so you could kind of say they were both the lesser brothers for the Wizards. They also had both Bernard and Albert king. So, Albert was another lesser brother.

The bullets also selected Duane Washington (Derek fisher’s brother), but he never played for them.

I remember Charles Jones from my youth, I don’t really remember his brothers, but I think Charles makes the list.
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Re: Wizards trade for Aaron Holiday 

Post#82 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Tue Aug 3, 2021 10:46 am

Ruzious wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:If the Wizards hold their powder and maintain with Aron Holiday they’ll be happy.

Maybe I think get Dennis Smith in the very minimum because like Holiday he can generate triple doubles and plays with youthful bounce. AH and DS both play well of Bradley.

Toronto used youthful and unproven Fred Van Vleet with short Kyle Lowry—to a championship run—years after Wall/Beal with Pierce et al swept the Raptors.
m
Defense and ball movement beats isolate ball

Except for teams with great iso players - like Brooklyn and - to a lesser extent - Portland, Dallas, LAC, and LAL.


Exactly. This year the team with Giannis Antetokounmpo won at all. He turned out to be a really great iso player against Phoenix. He also had two really good helpers with Middleton and Holiday providing big moments.

Your basic premise is exactly right — you’re not gonna beat the teams with a great iso player(s).

If Houston had not had injuries when Chris Paul and James Harden where I’m at team the Rockets might’ve won a championship.

The Wizards just need to form a team that starts winning sooner than later. That old expression is first you win and then you get good. I really believe even this year’s team can win 50 games which is something the wizards haven’t done in 50 years or thereabouts.
After the Wizards GM really went and did it by having an imaginative, strong, draft day. I totally feel this as well;

AFM wrote:Don't sleep on these white bois. That's all I'm saying.
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Re: Wizards trade for Aaron Holiday 

Post#83 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Tue Aug 3, 2021 10:49 am

TMI
After the Wizards GM really went and did it by having an imaginative, strong, draft day. I totally feel this as well;

AFM wrote:Don't sleep on these white bois. That's all I'm saying.
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Re: Wizards trade for Aaron Holiday 

Post#84 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Tue Aug 3, 2021 10:56 am

doclinkin wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:"So yeah, I agree with Ruz" (he is a backup) and "he has a chance to show himself as a competent starter" :D !?!

But I guess I have to be with you... because that is the way we are going to probably roll.



Agree with this:

payitforward wrote:
Ruzious wrote:...Overall, I'd rate Aaron a little above both Neto and Ish.

I can't see why, honestly.


That he rates Aaron above Neto and Ish. Which to me grades out as eventual competent starter.


Agreed. Eventual competent starter most likely.
After the Wizards GM really went and did it by having an imaginative, strong, draft day. I totally feel this as well;

AFM wrote:Don't sleep on these white bois. That's all I'm saying.
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Re: Wizards trade for Aaron Holiday 

Post#85 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Tue Aug 3, 2021 10:57 am

I believe it is a moot point about Aaron holiday because Spencer Dinwiddie will be the starter if they complete the trade it seems like they’re hell-bent on making.

And you know what? I like bringing in a gnome starter with a potential starter and I’m not even worried about the contract or how it affects wizards because I have complete faith in Tommy’s shepherd.
After the Wizards GM really went and did it by having an imaginative, strong, draft day. I totally feel this as well;

AFM wrote:Don't sleep on these white bois. That's all I'm saying.
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Re: Wizards trade for Aaron Holiday 

Post#86 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Tue Aug 3, 2021 10:58 am

Gnome starter :nod: :crazy: :)
After the Wizards GM really went and did it by having an imaginative, strong, draft day. I totally feel this as well;

AFM wrote:Don't sleep on these white bois. That's all I'm saying.
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Re: Wizards trade for Aaron Holiday 

Post#87 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Tue Aug 3, 2021 10:59 am

Nonsensical
After the Wizards GM really went and did it by having an imaginative, strong, draft day. I totally feel this as well;

AFM wrote:Don't sleep on these white bois. That's all I'm saying.
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Re: Wizards trade for Aaron Holiday 

Post#88 » by NatP4 » Wed Aug 4, 2021 11:37 pm

Just wanted to throw this out here:

in 2018-2019, Holiday was 6th in RPM for point guards, just below his brother Jrue, Kyrie Irving, Kyle Lowry, James Harden, and Steph Curry. He was 2nd on the Pacers in on/off differential at +3.6 and 3rd according to Raptor.

in 2019-2020, he ranked 31st in RPM for point guards. He was 4th on the pacers in on/off differential at +1.6 and 3rd in Raptor.

2020-2021 just wasn't the same story. Had a really mediocre season. I have no idea why, I did not watch Pacers games, obviously, but he seems like a good bounce back/breakout candidate. I like the move.

if you get the guy from his first couple of seasons, you are getting a good starting caliber PG. Even still, he's definitely a quality backup PG. Good replacement for the quality backup PG we had last year in Neto.
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Re: Wizards trade for Aaron Holiday 

Post#89 » by doclinkin » Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:56 am



Remarkable how comfortable he is shooting the 3 vs how awkward he is with anything inside the arc. Still that three ball is smooth, balanced, quick release, as proficient off the dribble as it is on a catch and shoot. He can hit it from any spot on the curve.

Oh and I can't stand the guy in the purple shirt -- for no good reason.
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Re: Wizards trade for Aaron Holiday 

Post#90 » by payitforward » Wed Aug 18, 2021 2:56 am

Aaron Holiday is an NBA player. If he didn't look good in a video like this... they'd make another one. Caleb Homesley would look good in a video like this (don't mean to be dinging him, btw).

You don't learn anything about an NBA player by looking at footage to answer the question, "Is this guy good at basketball?" Of course he's good at basketball! He's an NBA player! The worst player in the league is a tremendous basketball player! Duh.

The idea that Holiday was "a good starting caliber PG" his first couple of seasons is just plain ridiculous. His assists were way below average. His scoring and TS% were below average. His fouls were above average. His rebounding (yes, guards do have to rebound) was way below average.

Then, in his 3d season, absolutely everything got worse. A fair amount worse.

You want to make an argument that he's a plus defender? Great! He'd better be.

Holiday's 2d year was by far his best year, & it was not good at all -- as in not as good as Ish Smith the same year. "Not as good" as in not as many points per 40 mimuites, a lower efg%, fewer defensive boards, fewer offensive boards, fewer assists, fewer blocked shots, & more fouls. He had the same # of steals & turnovers as Ish. & he is a very good FT shooter.

Is that all perfectly straightforward? Now... he's a lot younger than Ish, so maybe he'll improve.

Next we'll see video of a game in which he played well, along with the claim that "see, he's terrific."

I want Aaron Holiday to play well for us. But calling a guy good doesn't make him good.
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Re: Wizards trade for Aaron Holiday 

Post#91 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:26 am

My opinion ATM is Miles McBride is way better than AH. Jared Butler seems like a sure solid rotation player.

Holiday is from a basketball family. I expect I will look back at his play and say he was real solid. 6 or 7 out of 10
After the Wizards GM really went and did it by having an imaginative, strong, draft day. I totally feel this as well;

AFM wrote:Don't sleep on these white bois. That's all I'm saying.
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Re: Wizards trade for Aaron Holiday 

Post#92 » by doclinkin » Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:11 am

payitforward wrote:(more of the same)


Were you quoting someone or just being generally disagreeable?

Here I posted a video saying Baby Holiday shoots a pretty 3. Not that he is already great. Or good. Hell even in this thread I said that if he develops as he had been (before last year where he was moved off ball and on a team decimated by injury and for a coach who lost the respect of his team and was apparently clinically depressed) that he *could eventually become* a *competent* starter. But yeah he hits a pretty three and defends well. Video was provided to add content and value. Confirmed: looks smooth outside, crappy inside.

Stats agree? He has hit nearly 40% his 2nd year, a career 37% from 3. That's a solid percentage. Crappy inside: .425 career from 2pt. Defense: Opponent stats suggest when he is at his normal position (his 1st 2 seasons) and in a competent defensive scheme he holds opposing point guards below their average in shooting %'s, and forces them out of their comfort zone.

Now ok. You've made it clear you disapprove of the trade for Holiday. Question: Do you think no one has heard your opinion on that? Is there new information you'd like to offer? Because if you constantly rush in to pi55 on the campfire as soon as someone thinks about roasting a marshmallow, well, folks may end up dragging your tent to the lake when you fall asleep. Then all sing Kumbaya while you splash around and cuss.
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Re: Wizards trade for Aaron Holiday 

Post#93 » by pcbothwel » Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:57 am

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:My opinion ATM is Miles McBride is way better than AH. Jared Butler seems like a sure solid rotation player.

Holiday is from a basketball family. I expect I will look back at his play and say he was real solid. 6 or 7 out of 10


This was my problem. If you have Dinwiddie, Neto, Winston, and even Beal as the primary ball handler... why the need for another vet presence?
I was a big McBride fan and see no reason why the Holiday trade was needed. We could of picked McBride AND Todd (Though I wouldnt have) instead of the Holiday trade. This would have saved us money (No need to trade our 2nd to move Hutch) and given us more player control (Holiday is an expiring).
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Re: Wizards trade for Aaron Holiday 

Post#94 » by doclinkin » Wed Aug 18, 2021 12:05 pm

pcbothwel wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:My opinion ATM is Miles McBride is way better than AH. Jared Butler seems like a sure solid rotation player.

Holiday is from a basketball family. I expect I will look back at his play and say he was real solid. 6 or 7 out of 10


This was my problem. If you have Dinwiddie, Neto, Winston, and even Beal as the primary ball handler... why the need for another vet presence?
I was a big McBride fan and see no reason why the Holiday trade was needed. We could of picked McBride AND Todd (Though I wouldnt have) instead of the Holiday trade. This would have saved us money (No need to trade our 2nd to move Hutch) and given us more player control (Holiday is an expiring).


Just to remind you: When we traded for Holiday we had only Beal of your list.

Trading for Holiday dropped us out of 1st round guaranteed contract at a time when we were staring at the luxury tax. The Dinwiddie deal was very much in question, many unknowns had to be hammered out before landing him. As a sign and trade we could not patch him in to the LA deal until free agency opened. He was shoehorned into the Westbrook trade later, and looking at it in advance Brooklyn wanted us to take a player contract with him. We didn't and still had to dump assets to dodge the lux tax. The whole 5 team transaction was dicey, nothing that could have been predicted in advance. It has been cited as one of the most complicated NBA trades ever.

Dinwiddie was quoted that he was stressed about the move not coming through due to the 48 hours of wait-time even after the terms were agreed. On those 48 hours of wait time before the deal was finalized:

“They were terrible. They were terrible because you gotta remember this wasn’t just, 'Oh, I’m going to the Wizards, and we’re just figuring out the dollars.' Is it 58? Is it 60? That wasn’t it. You had to get all these parties to agree, and if any of the parties said no, the whole trade falls through.”


The Nets were trying to leverage a 1st round pick from the deal, as free agent guards were being snapped up. Tommy didn't flinch. Having a PG on the roster (Holiday) gave us a cushion.

So. But. If all of that had fallen through we would have been left with Beal, a rookie PG with the LA pick if we could make that work somehow, a bloated roster, and a lux tax bill too big to sign anyone of consequence. Neto was the last player we added, again as an UFA we had no guarantee he would choose us.

We traded the LA pick for Holiday. Yeah. But if we hadn't then we might not have been able to get Dinwiddie after all. So, is the rookie PG you wanted worth Dinwiddie+Holiday a first round pick and a happier Bradley Beal?
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Re: Wizards trade for Aaron Holiday 

Post#95 » by long suffrin' boulez fan » Wed Aug 18, 2021 12:35 pm

doclinkin wrote:

Remarkable how comfortable he is shooting the 3 vs how awkward he is with anything inside the arc. Still that three ball is smooth, balanced, quick release, as proficient off the dribble as it is on a catch and shoot. He can hit it from any spot on the curve.

Oh and I can't stand the guy in the purple shirt -- for no good reason.


Two primary take aways from the video. 1. Apparently Aaron Holiday makes every shot that he takes. 2. Purple Shirt dude is a “free guy.”
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Re: Wizards trade for Aaron Holiday 

Post#96 » by doclinkin » Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:11 pm

long suffrin' boulez fan wrote:
Two primary take aways from the video. 1. Apparently Aaron Holiday makes every shot that he takes. 2. Purple Shirt dude is a “free guy.”


Well I like that purple dude's kids were screening for him etc. And didn't the little girl face guard him once. But nah he missed damn near every shot in the paint seemed like. Some of the shots were like "what is this word 'lay-up'? Is that even in basketball?". He's still shooting jumpshots when he's 3 feet from the basket.
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Re: Wizards trade for Aaron Holiday 

Post#97 » by DCZards » Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:33 pm

I believe Tommy & Co. see something in Holiday beyond what the 24 year old has been able to show thus far in his short career.

Maybe TS sees it in the analytics. Maybe it’s in the scouting and videos.

Tommy was right on Neto and, while he was overpaid, they were right on Capt. Hook (Lopez). I’ve got a hunch TS could be right on Holiday and his upside as well.
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Re: Wizards trade for Aaron Holiday 

Post#98 » by payitforward » Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:51 pm

doclinkin wrote:
payitforward wrote:(more of the same)


Were you quoting someone or just being generally disagreeable?

Here I posted a video saying Baby Holiday shoots a pretty 3. Not that he is already great. Or good. Hell even in this thread I said that if he develops as he had been (before last year where he was moved off ball and on a team decimated by injury and for a coach who lost the respect of his team and was apparently clinically depressed) that he *could eventually become* a *competent* starter. But yeah he hits a pretty three and defends well. Video was provided to add content and value. Confirmed: looks smooth outside, crappy inside.

Stats agree? He has hit nearly 40% his 2nd year, a career 37% from 3. That's a solid percentage. Crappy inside: .425 career from 2pt. Defense: Opponent stats suggest when he is at his normal position (his 1st 2 seasons) and in a competent defensive scheme he holds opposing point guards below their average in shooting %'s, and forces them out of their comfort zone.

Now ok. You've made it clear you disapprove of the trade for Holiday. Question: Do you think no one has heard your opinion on that? Is there new information you'd like to offer? Because if you constantly rush in to pi55 on the campfire as soon as someone thinks about roasting a marshmallow, well, folks may end up dragging your tent to the lake when you fall asleep. Then all sing Kumbaya while you splash around and cuss.

I should have made it clear that I was speaking to natp4's reply to your video -- in which he suggested that Aaron Holiday's first 2 years showed "a competent starting point guard."

You didn't say anything of that kind. You said, in effect, "Take a look. See? He's good at something." That's worth saying. Then you said, essentially, "if he continues to develop (i.e. gets better), he'll be better (i.e. have continued to develop)." Anodyne, & by definition is true of absolutely any player (of anyone doing anything whatever!).

Still... let me continue along the same lines: if Holiday gets back to shooting the 3 at the % he posted his 2d year, while shooting the number of them he did as a rookie (& also shooting the 2 as well, & getting to the line at least as often as he did his rookie year -- yet shooting the FT% of his 2d year), & he also gets steals at the level of his 3d year (but fouls only as often as his 2d year) ... if he does all these things plus he also makes a few other improvements in his game, well then he has a shot to reach the level of an average NBA point guard. Not an average starter, mind you, just an overall average PG.

Combine all that with being a good defender, & it would make Aaron Holiday a player worth having. Right now, however, they are still walking around the Front Office in Indiana, exclaiming "Do you believe we traded Aaron for the 22d pick in the 2021 draft? Plus... what is his name...? Oh yeah, Isaiah Todd?"

OTOH, if he's a killer defender... hey, then maybe I'm wrong.
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Re: Wizards trade for Aaron Holiday 

Post#99 » by payitforward » Wed Aug 18, 2021 2:04 pm

As to being "disagreeable," doc -- what I am is frustrated. I'm a Wizards fan, & I'm tired of the decades & decades of overall dismal performance, broken occasionally by an unexpected surge all the way up to meh.

We just traded away a Round 1 pick. When's the last time that turned out to be a good idea? There must be a case or two out there.... But, I'd a whole lot rather have one of Isaiah Jackson, Usman Garuba, Bones Hyland, Quentin Grimes or Jaden Springer than I would Holiday plus Isaiah Todd.

Now... had we done something sensible with that #31 pick, something we could easily have done as we both know, & so wound up with, say, Miles McBride & Neemias Queta, that would be different.
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Re: Wizards trade for Aaron Holiday 

Post#100 » by doclinkin » Wed Aug 18, 2021 2:31 pm

payitforward wrote:if Holiday gets back to shooting the 3 at the % he posted his 2d year, while shooting the number of them he did as a rookie (& also shooting the 2 as well, & getting to the line at least as often as he did his rookie year -- yet shooting the FT% of his 2d year), & he also gets steals at the level of his 3d year (but fouls only as often as his 2d year) ... if he does all these things plus he also makes a few other improvements in his game, well then he has a shot to reach the level of an average NBA point guard. Not an average starter, mind you, just an overall average PG.

Combine all that with being a good defender, & it would make Aaron Holiday a player worth having.


I would say, given his solid 3FG and his solid defense, on this team all he has to do to improve is pass more.

And then for Isaiah Todd to become an all-star.

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