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Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread.

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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#281 » by JAR69 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:58 pm

Not sure the best place for this, but this seems good.

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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#282 » by Ruzious » Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:28 pm

SUPERBALLMAN wrote:
NatP4 wrote:
SUPERBALLMAN wrote:I'm interested to see Ayayi , I'd like to see him get a chance to see how he might fit in the rotation.


Same. I think he’s going to be a really good 3rd guard.

In 5 G-League games he’s averaging 14 points 7.7 assists and 6.7 rebounds per 36 on 67.8% TS. Shooting the 3 at 38.5%.

Those are basically identical to his junior year numbers at Gonzaga plus a massive increase in assists.



Yeah, I just like his skills as a guard who you could possibly play with either Dinwiddie or Beal, Good size, versatile, well rounded game & IQ.

Tbh, I'm not a huge fan of his, but I'd give him Neto's minutes against other team's backups - give him a chance to succeed.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#283 » by dckingsfan » Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:15 pm

I would not have guessed this - and I don't understand the "why". But Holiday/KCP are really bad when playing together. You will also note that the Avidja/Harrell combination continues to put distance between every other combination.

Click on NETRTG and it will give you the worst net rating.

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612764&GroupQuantity=3&sort=NET_RATING&dir=-1&CF=MIN*G*100
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#284 » by Frichuela » Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:29 pm

dckingsfan wrote:I would not have guessed this - and I don't understand the "why". But Holiday/KCP are really bad when playing together. You will also note that the Avidja/Harrell combination continues to put distance between every other combination.

Click on NETRTG and it will give you the worst net rating.

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612764&GroupQuantity=3&sort=NET_RATING&dir=-1&CF=MIN*G*100


Key takeaway: any line up with Harrell at C is beasting. Meanwhile, the results with Gafford are very underwhelming…
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#285 » by Frichuela » Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:31 pm

Frichuela wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:I would not have guessed this - and I don't understand the "why". But Holiday/KCP are really bad when playing together. You will also note that the Avidja/Harrell combination continues to put distance between every other combination.

Click on NETRTG and it will give you the worst net rating.

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612764&GroupQuantity=3&sort=NET_RATING&dir=-1&CF=MIN*G*100


Key takeaway: any line up with Harrell at C is beasting. Meanwhile, the results with Gafford are very underwhelming…


But Gafford individually has good advanced numbers: Ortg of 121 and Drtg of 101. Bizarre :crazy:
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#286 » by queridiculo » Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:09 pm

Frichuela wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:I would not have guessed this - and I don't understand the "why". But Holiday/KCP are really bad when playing together. You will also note that the Avidja/Harrell combination continues to put distance between every other combination.

Click on NETRTG and it will give you the worst net rating.

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612764&GroupQuantity=3&sort=NET_RATING&dir=-1&CF=MIN*G*100


Key takeaway: any line up with Harrell at C is beasting. Meanwhile, the results with Gafford are very underwhelming…


Yeah, it's interesting, I was looking at the five man lineups earlier.

Our starting lineup, and the lineup with the most playing time together so far this season has an awful net rating of -8.6.

I mean this group is first at 125 minutes by a margin of damn near 60 minutes compared to one of most effective lineups the Wizards have playing together (B. Beal, .K. Caldwell-Pope, .S. Dinwiddie, .M. Harrell, .K. Kuzma).

It's not the defensive however, it's the sheer ineptitude on offense that's consistently putting this team into a hole with that starting group.

In theory the starting five that should be able to stretch the floor and take advantage of Dinwiddie's and Beals ability to get to the hoop but most of the time the perimeter is so crowded that the offense gets bogged down.

All those dribble handoffs and pick and rolls featuring Gafford gum up the offense on the perimeter because it brings an extra defender and Washington hasn't figured out how to consistently take advantage when our center has a mismatch from the switches and blitzes defenses send at our ball handlers.

The lineup data is not kind to Gafford when he's on the floor at all unfortunately, and it's mostly because the offense lags so far behind with him out there.

Gafford should be parked in the dunker spot not spend his time being a facilitator on the perimeter, it doesn't suit his skillset at all.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#287 » by Frichuela » Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:15 pm

queridiculo wrote:
Frichuela wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:I would not have guessed this - and I don't understand the "why". But Holiday/KCP are really bad when playing together. You will also note that the Avidja/Harrell combination continues to put distance between every other combination.

Click on NETRTG and it will give you the worst net rating.

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612764&GroupQuantity=3&sort=NET_RATING&dir=-1&CF=MIN*G*100


Key takeaway: any line up with Harrell at C is beasting. Meanwhile, the results with Gafford are very underwhelming…


Yeah, it's interesting, I was looking at the five man lineups earlier.

Our starting lineup, and the lineup with the most playing time together so far this season has an awful net rating of -8.6.

I mean this group is first at 125 minutes by a margin of damn near 60 minutes compared to one of most effective lineups the Wizards have playing together (B. Beal, .K. Caldwell-Pope, .S. Dinwiddie, .M. Harrell, .K. Kuzma).

It's not the defensive however, it's the sheer ineptitude on offense that's consistently putting this team into a hole with that starting group.

In theory the starting five that should be able to stretch the floor and take advantage of Dinwiddie's and Beals ability to get to the hoop but most of the time the perimeter is so crowded that the offense gets bogged down.

All those dribble handoffs and pick and rolls featuring Gafford gum up the offense on the perimeter because it brings an extra defender and Washington hasn't figured out how to consistently take advantage when our center has a mismatch from the switches and blitzes defenses send at our ball handlers.

The lineup data is not kind to Gafford when he's on the floor at all unfortunately, and it's mostly because the offense lags so far behind with him out there.

Gafford should be parked in the dunker spot not spend his time being a facilitator on the perimeter, it doesn't suit his skillset at all.


Yep. Agreed. Good point.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#288 » by nate33 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:20 pm

queridiculo wrote:All those dribble handoffs and pick and rolls featuring Gafford gum up the offense on the perimeter because it brings an extra defender and Washington hasn't figured out how to consistently take advantage when our center has a mismatch from the switches and blitzes defenses send at our ball handlers.

The lineup data is not kind to Gafford when he's on the floor at all unfortunately, and it's mostly because the offense lags so far behind with him out there.

Gafford should be parked in the dunker spot not spend his time being a facilitator on the perimeter, it doesn't suit his skillset at all.

This is an interesting thought. It would be nice to see Wes Jr. explore it some. It would be interesting to have Bertans be the screen setter at the high post so he can run pick and pop. His man couldn't afford to hedge onto the ball handler, allowing the ball handler to attack the basket with only Gafford and Gafford's defender near the rim, so it would be a 2 on 1.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#289 » by dckingsfan » Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:49 pm

Frichuela wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:I would not have guessed this - and I don't understand the "why". But Holiday/KCP are really bad when playing together. You will also note that the Avidja/Harrell combination continues to put distance between every other combination.

Click on NETRTG and it will give you the worst net rating.

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612764&GroupQuantity=3&sort=NET_RATING&dir=-1&CF=MIN*G*100


Key takeaway: any line up with Harrell at C is beasting. Meanwhile, the results with Gafford are very underwhelming…

Harrell/Kuzma is pretty underwhelming compared to Harrell/Avidja with around the same sample size of 250+ minutes... Interesting, no?

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612764&GroupQuantity=2&sort=NET_RATING&dir=1&CF=MIN*G*250
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#290 » by Dolevi » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:08 pm

The Deni-Montrezl chemistry on the floor it's really something lovely to see. No doubt those are the stats. Not surprised.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#291 » by Frichuela » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:14 pm

Dolevi wrote:The Deni-Montrezl chemistry on the floor it's really something lovely to see. No doubt those are the stats. Not surprised.


Yep. Both the eye and the stats corroborate this.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#292 » by doclinkin » Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:58 am

nate33 wrote:
queridiculo wrote:All those dribble handoffs and pick and rolls featuring Gafford gum up the offense on the perimeter because it brings an extra defender and Washington hasn't figured out how to consistently take advantage when our center has a mismatch from the switches and blitzes defenses send at our ball handlers.

The lineup data is not kind to Gafford when he's on the floor at all unfortunately, and it's mostly because the offense lags so far behind with him out there.

Gafford should be parked in the dunker spot not spend his time being a facilitator on the perimeter, it doesn't suit his skillset at all.

This is an interesting thought. It would be nice to see Wes Jr. explore it some. It would be interesting to have Bertans be the screen setter at the high post so he can run pick and pop. His man couldn't afford to hedge onto the ball handler, allowing the ball handler to attack the basket with only Gafford and Gafford's defender near the rim, so it would be a 2 on 1.


Right, and Bertans actually sets a better screen than Gafford. Gafford slips every pick or screen. Or sets a weak one. So there is no point for him to be out there since he ends up basically dragging another defender to clog things up and get in the way, without erasing one. The passer can't find him because they are swallowed up by the doubleteam.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#293 » by FAH1223 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:47 am

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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#294 » by Pistol King » Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:52 pm

dckingsfan wrote:I would not have guessed this - and I don't understand the "why". But Holiday/KCP are really bad when playing together. You will also note that the Avidja/Harrell combination continues to put distance between every other combination.

Click on NETRTG and it will give you the worst net rating.

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612764&GroupQuantity=3&sort=NET_RATING&dir=-1&CF=MIN*G*100

Something really catches me in those stats: Deni appears on all of the top 6 three players lineups net rating combinations. Harrell appears in five of the top six:
https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612764&GroupQuantity=3&sort=NET_RATING&dir=1&CF=MIN*G*100

Also Deni appears in 4 of the top six two players line ups net rating combinations. Interestingly Harrell appears only on two of the top six two players combinations:
https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612764&GroupQuantity=2&sort=NET_RATING&dir=1&CF=MIN*G*100

I'd assume Deni appears in more two players line ups than Trez because he's more versatile, can play few different positions which helps him to bond well with different type of players.

For me it's absolutely a miracle that Deni has such a high net rating metrics despite playing almost consistently alongside Neto, who is the team's worst player so far this year.

Advanced stats clearly show the team is so much better when Deni and Harrell are on the court. What a smart coach would do: trying put them on the court as much as possible. What WUJ is doing game after game: giving heavy minutes to one dimensional midgets like Neto and Holiday, and letting the starting line up having way more minutes than what they're actually deserve according to their play level. Now I'm afraid he will start letting Davis a green light to do whatever he wants as well, and with his zero defense it might be too painful to watch. Yeah, from time to time he would get from him a random 7/9 from 3 game, but we know it's fool's gold.

I'm saying it as a big WUJ fan. Loved everything about his press conferences and he's such a refresh after having Brooks, He has a true potential as a good NBA coach, but so far it seems he's going to live and die with his 'favorable players' even if they don't justify it, and it costs and will cost unnecessary losses. We've been 18 games in and I can't recall even one time when the Wizards start a game in a bad way and he would make an early line up change according to what is happening on the floor. He's just riding the same players at the same moments almost blindly, and it's disappointing.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#295 » by dckingsfan » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:19 pm

Pistol King wrote:I'm saying it as a big WUJ fan. Loved everything about his press conferences and he's such a refresh after having Brooks, He has a true potential as a good NBA coach, but so far it seems he's going to live and die with his 'favorable players' even if they don't justify it, and it costs and will cost unnecessary losses. We've been 18 games in and I can't recall even one time when the Wizards start a game in a bad way and he would make an early line up change according to what is happening on the floor. He's just riding the same players at the same moments almost blindly, and it's disappointing.

Wes definitely has some tough decisions coming up... the starting lineup isn't helping him as it us currently constituted. I don't really have an answer though. Dinwiddie/Beal aren't going to be changed as the starting backcourt - but they haven't yet meshed (maybe because Beal got off to such a slow start?). I am guessing that they aren't going to move Gafford to the bench for Harrell, but if they do, they should move Avidja with him. And then what to do with Rui and Bertans when they roll into form.

What I like is that Harrell/Avidja have often been the first off the bench and he has stuck with that effective combo. I like that Harrell is playing 28 minutes to Gaffords 20.

What I don't like anytime we have more than two guards in our lineup - our strength is at forward. And I think that Kuz is getting a few too many minutes (maybe Beal as well).

Regardless - Wes had them ready out of training camp - keeping that momentum going is going to take some adjustments.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#296 » by Dolevi » Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:01 am

Pistol King wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:I would not have guessed this - and I don't understand the "why". But Holiday/KCP are really bad when playing together. You will also note that the Avidja/Harrell combination continues to put distance between every other combination.

Click on NETRTG and it will give you the worst net rating.

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612764&GroupQuantity=3&sort=NET_RATING&dir=-1&CF=MIN*G*100

Something really catches me in those stats: Deni appears on all of the top 6 three players lineups net rating combinations. Harrell appears in five of the top six:
https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612764&GroupQuantity=3&sort=NET_RATING&dir=1&CF=MIN*G*100

Also Deni appears in 4 of the top six two players line ups net rating combinations. Interestingly Harrell appears only on two of the top six two players combinations:
https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612764&GroupQuantity=2&sort=NET_RATING&dir=1&CF=MIN*G*100

I'd assume Deni appears in more two players line ups than Trez because he's more versatile, can play few different positions which help him to bond well with different type of players.

For me it's absolutely a miracle that Deni has such a high net rating metrics despite playing almost consistently alongside Neto, who is the team's worst player so far this year.

Advanced stats clearly show the team is so much better when Deni and Harrell are on the court. What a smart coach would do: trying put them on the court as much as possible. What WUJ is doing game after game: giving heavy minutes to one dimensional midgets like Neto and Holiday, and letting the starting line up having way more minutes than what they're actually deserve according to their play level. Now I'm afraid he will start letting Davis a green light to do whatever he wants as well, and with his zero defense it might be too painful to watch. Yeah, from time to time he would get from him a random 7/9 from 3 game, but we know it's fool's gold.

I'm saying it as a big WUJ fan. Loved everything about his press conferences and he's such a refresh after having Brooks, He has a true potential as a good NBA coach, but so far it seems he's going to live and die with his 'favorable players' even if they don't justify it, and it costs and will cost unnecessary losses. We've been 18 games in and I can't recall even one time when the Wizards start a game in a bad way and he would make an early line up change according to what is happening on the floor. He's just riding the same players at the same moments almost blindly, and it's disappointing.


:clap: :clap:
Deni is the best defender in the team, and in the offensive side he always searches his teamates and the extra pass. These stats confirms his high level BBIQ. About Harrell - he's just a monster, but a smart one with a brain which connects to Deni. Wes should try him and Harrell both in the line-up, and then see what happens. They earned this chance.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#297 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:37 am

Pistol King wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:I would not have guessed this - and I don't understand the "why". But Holiday/KCP are really bad when playing together. You will also note that the Avidja/Harrell combination continues to put distance between every other combination.

Click on NETRTG and it will give you the worst net rating.

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612764&GroupQuantity=3&sort=NET_RATING&dir=-1&CF=MIN*G*100

Something really catches me in those stats: Deni appears on all of the top 6 three players lineups net rating combinations. Harrell appears in five of the top six:
https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612764&GroupQuantity=3&sort=NET_RATING&dir=1&CF=MIN*G*100

Also Deni appears in 4 of the top six two players line ups net rating combinations. Interestingly Harrell appears only on two of the top six two players combinations:
https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612764&GroupQuantity=2&sort=NET_RATING&dir=1&CF=MIN*G*100

I'd assume Deni appears in more two players line ups than Trez because he's more versatile, can play few different positions which help him to bond well with different type of players.

For me it's absolutely a miracle that Deni has such a high net rating metrics despite playing almost consistently alongside Neto, who is the team's worst player so far this year.

Advanced stats clearly show the team is so much better when Deni and Harrell are on the court. What a smart coach would do: trying put them on the court as much as possible. What WUJ is doing game after game: giving heavy minutes to one dimensional midgets like Neto and Holiday, and letting the starting line up having way more minutes than what they're actually deserve according to their play level. Now I'm afraid he will start letting Davis a green light to do whatever he wants as well, and with his zero defense it might be too painful to watch. Yeah, from time to time he would get from him a random 7/9 from 3 game, but we know it's fool's gold.

I'm saying it as a big WUJ fan. Loved everything about his press conferences and he's such a refresh after having Brooks, He has a true potential as a good NBA coach, but so far it seems he's going to live and die with his 'favorable players' even if they don't justify it, and it costs and will cost unnecessary losses. We've been 18 games in and I can't recall even one time when the Wizards start a game in a bad way and he would make an early line up change according to what is happening on the floor. He's just riding the same players at the same moments almost blindly, and it's disappointing.
I agree with every word of this.

He would do better to start Harrell with Deni. Kuzma ahead of Rui...
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#298 » by penbeast0 » Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:48 pm

I understand starting Gafford. You are trying to set a defensive tone for the game and great as Harrell has been, he doesn't do that. If Beal and Dinwiddie start hot, you leave him out there for awhile, if not, bring in Harrell quickly to get us going.

I would like to see Avdija starting at PF and, when Bryant comes back, an extended experiment with bringing in both Harrell and Bryant to play together to see if they work. I'd resign them both and see if Harrell can play PF next to Bryant. Heck, I'd start Bertans ahead of Kuzma as we have both our most creative guards in then.

Then dump Kuzma and possibly Hachimura (who I still haven't seen much to be impressed with) for what you can get (hopefully a 2nd and a late 1st respectively) and run with Gafford/Avdija/Harrell/Bryant/Bertans/Todd up front. That's more than enough big men.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#299 » by pcbothwel » Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:44 pm

I actually think Kuzma could play some small ball 5 as a 3rd center. If he can rebound at his current rate and hit 35% of his 3's, then he becomes an intriguing mismatch if we dont get a decent deal for him.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#300 » by nate33 » Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:25 pm

What did Brooks do differently to convert Gafford into a pretty effective offensive weapon whereas now, under Wes Jr., Gafford seems to be a lane-clogging offensive liability?

Was it just Westbrook? Or is there a difference in scheme at play?

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