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Wizards Board COVID-19 Thread

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Wizards Board COVID-19 Thread 

Post#1 » by FAH1223 » Mon Aug 9, 2021 5:30 am

80sballboy wrote:So Wiz and so Washington/Baltimore area.(Lamar, Nats-Covid, Wiz-Covid regular season, Ravens-Covid)

Also, this has to be more than just bad luck. I don't hear about any other organizations having these issues. Says something about this organization.

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Re: 2021 Summer League Thread 

Post#2 » by gambitx777 » Mon Aug 9, 2021 7:25 am

How was this preventable ?


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Re: 2021 Summer League Thread 

Post#3 » by Ruzious » Mon Aug 9, 2021 10:25 am

gambitx777 wrote:How was this preventable ?


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The fact that it happened with Beal - costing him an Olympic Gold Metal - and then with 3 other players - while other teams aren't having this problem - certainly leads to questions about the lack of organizational efforts to avoid this situation. Honestly, it's disgraceful, imo.
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Re: 2021 Summer League Thread 

Post#4 » by doclinkin » Mon Aug 9, 2021 12:30 pm

gambitx777 wrote:How was this preventable ?



Vaccines? This was Beals wife:
In January
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Then still in April
Read on Twitter


Studies show unvaccinated people are three times more likely than those who are fully vaccinated to test positive for COVID-19. Researchers also said fully vaccinated people are less likely to transmit the virus to others. But some people think they are outsmarting everyone by remaining vulnerable. Maybe this doesn't represent Beal's views, but our franchise player hasn't shown public leadership in the opposite direction either.
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Re: 2021 Summer League Thread 

Post#5 » by nate33 » Mon Aug 9, 2021 1:27 pm

doclinkin wrote:Studies show unvaccinated people are three times more likely than those who are fully vaccinated to test positive for COVID-19. Researchers also said fully vaccinated people are less likely to transmit the virus to others. But some people think they are outsmarting everyone by remaining vulnerable. Maybe this doesn't represent Beal's views, but our franchise player hasn't shown public leadership in the opposite direction either.

Do you have a source for this?

I'm reading that the vaccines are fading in effectiveness over time with respect to their ability to prevent people from catching Covid (though they are definitely a big help in mitigating the symptoms). They're probably still a bit better than nothing to prevent you from catching it, but because vaccinated carriers are more likely to be asymptomatic, the end result is that they are walking superspreaders. So the vaccinated community are catching it as much as the unvaccinated because they are exposed to the virus more often.

The CDC director just said 2 days ago:
“Our vaccines are working exceptionally well. They continue to work well for Delta with regard to severe illness and death, they prevent it. But what they can’t do anymore is prevent transmission.”


Here's a link from the Washington Post about the Massachusetts Outbreak:

A sobering scientific analysis published Friday found that three-quarters of the people infected during an explosive coronavirus outbreak fueled by the delta variant were fully vaccinated. The report on the Massachusetts cases, from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, offers key evidence bolstering the hypothesis that vaccinated people can spread the more transmissible variant and may be a factor in the summer surge of infections.

Critically, the study found that vaccinated individuals carried as much virus in their noses as unvaccinated individuals, strongly suggesting that vaccinated people could spread the virus to others.

Similar findings may be emerging from other locations. The internal CDC document showed that national surveillance found that vaccinated people had larger amounts of virus in their nose when infected with the delta variant, compared with other variants. A report of cases from mid-July in Dane County, Wis., found a similar result, showing that fully vaccinated people had viral loads similar to those of unvaccinated people “and may be more capable of spreading COVID than was previously known.”

This whole blame game needs to stop. The vaccines are helpful, but not perfect. They're not going to stop the spread even if everyone is vaccinated. Iceland is currently having a breakout despite a 93% vaccination rate:

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The same holds true for Israel, UK, and other nations with a higher vaccination rate than the United States. With the vaccines unable to stop the spread, vaccination is no longer a public health choice. It's an individual health choice. Maybe the unvaccinated are being stupid for subjecting themselves to greater hospitalization and death risk from Covid, but they're not subjecting the general public to risk any more than the vaccinated are.
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Re: 2021 Summer League Thread 

Post#6 » by doclinkin » Mon Aug 9, 2021 1:49 pm

nate33 wrote:
doclinkin wrote:Studies show unvaccinated people are three times more likely than those who are fully vaccinated to test positive for COVID-19. Researchers also said fully vaccinated people are less likely to transmit the virus to others. But some people think they are outsmarting everyone by remaining vulnerable. Maybe this doesn't represent Beal's views, but our franchise player hasn't shown public leadership in the opposite direction either.

Do you have a source for this?


https://spiral.imperial.ac.uk/bitstream/10044/1/90800/2/react1_r13_final_preprint_final.pdf

Last subject batch of people tested was June 24-July 12. Pretty current.

Let me see if I can find an article that breaks it down. Hang on.

Boom:

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/risks-of-the-delta-variant-for-vaccinated-vs-unvaccinated-people

There will be more variants as long as more and more people get sick and continue to spread it. Yes even if you are vaccinated you should be wearing a mask to avoid spreading it in case you do contract it and are asymptomatic. Leadership on this issue is a matter of personal choice as well, but it can save more lives than shouting about personal choice does.
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Re: 2021 Summer League Thread 

Post#7 » by nate33 » Mon Aug 9, 2021 2:29 pm

doclinkin wrote:
nate33 wrote:
doclinkin wrote:Studies show unvaccinated people are three times more likely than those who are fully vaccinated to test positive for COVID-19. Researchers also said fully vaccinated people are less likely to transmit the virus to others. But some people think they are outsmarting everyone by remaining vulnerable. Maybe this doesn't represent Beal's views, but our franchise player hasn't shown public leadership in the opposite direction either.

Do you have a source for this?


https://spiral.imperial.ac.uk/bitstream/10044/1/90800/2/react1_r13_final_preprint_final.pdf

Last subject batch of people tested was June 24-July 12. Pretty current.

Let me see if I can find an article that breaks it down. Hang on.

Boom:

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/risks-of-the-delta-variant-for-vaccinated-vs-unvaccinated-people

There will be more variants as long as more and more people get sick and continue to spread it. Yes even if you are vaccinated you should be wearing a mask to avoid spreading it in case you do contract it and are asymptomatic. Leadership on this issue is a matter of personal choice as well, but it can save more lives than shouting about personal choice does.

Thanks, Doc.

From that first link:
However, in round 13, 44% of infections occurred in fully vaccinated individuals, reflecting imperfect vaccine effectiveness against infection despite high overall levels of vaccination. Using self-reported vaccination status, we estimated adjusted vaccine effectiveness against infection in round 13 of 49% (22%, 67%) among participants aged 18 to 64 years, which rose to 58% (33%, 73%) when considering only strong positives (Cycle threshold [Ct] values < 27); also, we estimated adjusted vaccine effectiveness against symptomatic infection of 59%


So vaccine effectiveness is only 44% in the most recent round, increasing from 33% in the prior round. So, as I said, it's trending in the wrong direction as the vaccine loses effectiveness. And at just 44% effective, I'd say the vaccinated are probably just as likely to be spreading as the unvaccinated, since they are more likely to be walking around and attending social gatherings rather than being at home with a headache or fever.
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Re: 2021 Summer League Thread 

Post#8 » by DCZards » Mon Aug 9, 2021 2:47 pm

nate33 wrote:So vaccine effectiveness is only 44% in the most recent round, increasing from 33% in the prior round. So, as I said, it's trending in the wrong direction as the vaccine loses effectiveness. And at just 44% effective, I'd say the vaccinated are probably just as likely to be spreading as the unvaccinated, since they are more likely to be walking around and attending social gatherings rather than being at home with a headache or fever.

Yeah…but if the vaccinated folks are attending social gatherings and spreading the virus to other vaccinated people very few of them are likely to end up at home with a headache or bad fever.

It’s the knuckleheads who are refusing to get vaccinated for stupid a** reasons who are ending up hospitalized or dead…and forcing the rest of us to face another shutdown.
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Re: 2021 Summer League Thread 

Post#9 » by nate33 » Mon Aug 9, 2021 2:50 pm

DCZards wrote:
nate33 wrote:So vaccine effectiveness is only 44% in the most recent round, increasing from 33% in the prior round. So, as I said, it's trending in the wrong direction as the vaccine loses effectiveness. And at just 44% effective, I'd say the vaccinated are probably just as likely to be spreading as the unvaccinated, since they are more likely to be walking around and attending social gatherings rather than being at home with a headache or fever.

Yeah…but if the vaccinated folks are spreading it to other vaccinated people then few people are likely to be home with a headache or fever.

It’s the knuckleheads who are refusing to get vaccinated for simple a** reasons who are ending up hospitalized or dead…and forcing the rest of us to face another shutdown.

Nobody is forcing us to face another shutdown. As you said, the vaccinated aren't being hospitalized or dying. The unvaccinated have made their choice. They can live with it. If you ask them, I'm sure they'd be against another shutdown too.
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Re: 2021 Summer League Thread 

Post#10 » by DCZards » Mon Aug 9, 2021 2:54 pm

nate33 wrote:
DCZards wrote:
nate33 wrote:So vaccine effectiveness is only 44% in the most recent round, increasing from 33% in the prior round. So, as I said, it's trending in the wrong direction as the vaccine loses effectiveness. And at just 44% effective, I'd say the vaccinated are probably just as likely to be spreading as the unvaccinated, since they are more likely to be walking around and attending social gatherings rather than being at home with a headache or fever.

Yeah…but if the vaccinated folks are spreading it to other vaccinated people then few people are likely to be home with a headache or fever.

It’s the knuckleheads who are refusing to get vaccinated for simple a** reasons who are ending up hospitalized or dead…and forcing the rest of us to face another shutdown.

Nobody is forcing us to face another shutdown. As you said, the vaccinated aren't being hospitalized or dying. The unvaccinated have made their choice. They can live with it. If you ask them, I'm sure they'd be against another shutdown too.

Do you think DC and Maryland would have returned to a mask mandate if people weren’t being hospitalized and dying…almost all of whom are unvaccinated?

If you’re truly against another shutdown get your butt vaccinated. It’s not rocket science.
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Re: 2021 Summer League Thread 

Post#11 » by nate33 » Mon Aug 9, 2021 3:01 pm

DCZards wrote:
nate33 wrote:
DCZards wrote:Yeah…but if the vaccinated folks are spreading it to other vaccinated people then few people are likely to be home with a headache or fever.

It’s the knuckleheads who are refusing to get vaccinated for simple a** reasons who are ending up hospitalized or dead…and forcing the rest of us to face another shutdown.

Nobody is forcing us to face another shutdown. As you said, the vaccinated aren't being hospitalized or dying. The unvaccinated have made their choice. They can live with it. If you ask them, I'm sure they'd be against another shutdown too.

Do you think DC and Maryland would have returned to a mask mandate if people weren’t being hospitalized and dying…almost all of whom are unvaccinated?

I can't help that the politicians in DC and Maryland are doing things against the will of their people. Or maybe it's what their people want, in which case, there's nothing wrong with that either.
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Re: 2021 Summer League Thread 

Post#12 » by nate33 » Mon Aug 9, 2021 3:04 pm

DCZards wrote:If you’re truly against another shutdown get your butt vaccinated. It’s not rocket science.

As I posted earlier, Iceland, with a 93% vaccination rate, is having a case surge just as big as the U.S. And that's despite being a cold weather country. (One of the reasons for the U.S. surge is that people in hot southern states are now staying indoors where there is air conditioning. We had the same pattern last year.)
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Re: 2021 Summer League Thread 

Post#13 » by Ruzious » Mon Aug 9, 2021 3:27 pm

DCZards wrote:
nate33 wrote:So vaccine effectiveness is only 44% in the most recent round, increasing from 33% in the prior round. So, as I said, it's trending in the wrong direction as the vaccine loses effectiveness. And at just 44% effective, I'd say the vaccinated are probably just as likely to be spreading as the unvaccinated, since they are more likely to be walking around and attending social gatherings rather than being at home with a headache or fever.

Yeah…but if the vaccinated folks are attending social gatherings and spreading the virus to other vaccinated people very few of them are likely to end up at home with a headache or bad fever.

It’s the knuckleheads who are refusing to get vaccinated for stupid a** reasons who are ending up hospitalized or dead…and forcing the rest of us to face another shutdown.

The unvaccinated include children - who have not made choices. Of course, there are enormous problems with the unvaccinated - including the crowding of hospitals here and all over the world - which lowers the quality of care for hospital patients in general and over-burdens hospital workers - also resulting in lower quality of care for hospital patients in general. Generally speaking, civilizations tend to frown on people unnecessarily suffering and dying from pandemics.
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Re: 2021 Summer League Thread 

Post#14 » by nate33 » Mon Aug 9, 2021 3:30 pm

Ruzious wrote:
DCZards wrote:
nate33 wrote:So vaccine effectiveness is only 44% in the most recent round, increasing from 33% in the prior round. So, as I said, it's trending in the wrong direction as the vaccine loses effectiveness. And at just 44% effective, I'd say the vaccinated are probably just as likely to be spreading as the unvaccinated, since they are more likely to be walking around and attending social gatherings rather than being at home with a headache or fever.

Yeah…but if the vaccinated folks are attending social gatherings and spreading the virus to other vaccinated people very few of them are likely to end up at home with a headache or bad fever.

It’s the knuckleheads who are refusing to get vaccinated for stupid a** reasons who are ending up hospitalized or dead…and forcing the rest of us to face another shutdown.

The unvaccinated include children - who have not made choices. Of course, there are enormous problems with the unvaccinated - including the crowding of hospitals here and all over the world - which lowers the quality of care for hospital patients in general and over-burdens hospital workers - also resulting in lower quality of care for hospital patients in general. Generally speaking, civilizations tend to frown on people unnecessarily suffering and dying from pandemics.

Fine. Then let's ban obesity. Fat people can't eat at restaurants anymore. Ban smoking too. How far down the road of medical tyranny do you want to take this?

Right now, the Covid risk for children is less than their flu risk. Should we mandate vaccines for them? The Covid death risk for people who have already recovered from Covid is virtually zero for anyone other than the extremely elderly, are we going to mandate that they take the vaccine anyhow? For any non-obese person under 50, the Covid risk is less than the risk of dying in a car crash. Are we still going to mandate vaccines for them?
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Re: 2021 Summer League Thread 

Post#15 » by Ruzious » Mon Aug 9, 2021 3:42 pm

nate33 wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
DCZards wrote:Yeah…but if the vaccinated folks are attending social gatherings and spreading the virus to other vaccinated people very few of them are likely to end up at home with a headache or bad fever.

It’s the knuckleheads who are refusing to get vaccinated for stupid a** reasons who are ending up hospitalized or dead…and forcing the rest of us to face another shutdown.

The unvaccinated include children - who have not made choices. Of course, there are enormous problems with the unvaccinated - including the crowding of hospitals here and all over the world - which lowers the quality of care for hospital patients in general and over-burdens hospital workers - also resulting in lower quality of care for hospital patients in general. Generally speaking, civilizations tend to frown on people unnecessarily suffering and dying from pandemics.

Fine. Then let's ban obesity. Fat people can't eat at restaurants anymore. Ban smoking too. How far down the road of medical tyranny do you want to take this?

Right now, the Covid risk for children is less than their flu risk. Should we mandate vaccines for them? The Covid death risk for people who have already recovered from Covid is virtually zero for anyone other than the extremely elderly, are we going to mandate that they take the vaccine anyhow? For any non-obese person under 50, the Covid risk is less than the risk of dying in a car crash. Are we still going to mandate vaccines for them?

STOP WITH THE MORONIC RATIONALIZATIONS!!!
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Re: 2021 Summer League Thread 

Post#16 » by nate33 » Mon Aug 9, 2021 4:00 pm

Ruzious wrote:
nate33 wrote:
Ruzious wrote:The unvaccinated include children - who have not made choices. Of course, there are enormous problems with the unvaccinated - including the crowding of hospitals here and all over the world - which lowers the quality of care for hospital patients in general and over-burdens hospital workers - also resulting in lower quality of care for hospital patients in general. Generally speaking, civilizations tend to frown on people unnecessarily suffering and dying from pandemics.

Fine. Then let's ban obesity. Fat people can't eat at restaurants anymore. Ban smoking too. How far down the road of medical tyranny do you want to take this?

Right now, the Covid risk for children is less than their flu risk. Should we mandate vaccines for them? The Covid death risk for people who have already recovered from Covid is virtually zero for anyone other than the extremely elderly, are we going to mandate that they take the vaccine anyhow? For any non-obese person under 50, the Covid risk is less than the risk of dying in a car crash. Are we still going to mandate vaccines for them?

STOP WITH THE MORONIC RATIONALIZATIONS!!!

Why are you getting upset?

This is a very important conversation to have. The fact that vaccines don't stop transmission is a fundamental change in how we approach this problem. As much as people want to believe it to be so, this is not smallpox type of situation. Smallpox could be eliminated because the vaccines were extremely effective in stopping transmission and there are no animal reservoirs where the vaccine can hide. But with SARS-Cov-2, vaccination will not extinguish the virus. The vaccines are too leaky, and there are animal reservoirs including bats, cats, and deer. We know this from Iceland and Israel, and we are now seeing it here. Near total vaccination does not stop the spread. The virus will become endemic. It will decline in severity over time as all viruses do, but it will not go away entirely. It's basically another flu, not another smallpox. Sooner or later, we will ALL get it.

I'm not trying to be obstinate about this. This is a serious discussion on how we should handle this from a public policy standpoint. People have to get out of their heads that there is an end to this. They believe that if we just do X,Y and Z, it will end. It won't! It will become endemic. This is a fact. With that the case, we need to get out of the mindset that slowing the spread with masks or social distancing is at all useful. Masks and social distancing aren't cures, they are delaying tactics. But delaying for what? The vaccines are already here and they're as good as they're going to get.

The only rationale for masks and social distancing at this point is if hospitals get overwhelmed. But if they weren't overwhelmed last year with no vaccines and only 5% natural immunity, they're not going to get overwhelmed this year with 60% vaccination rate and 30% natural immunity.

Covid policy should now be viewed form a standpoint of individual health, not public health. If we don't demand that people lose weight and quit smoking for their own good, there is no rationale to demand that they take a vaccine for their own good. Particularly when the vaccine does have some health risks associated with it, and the long term potential for Antibody-Dependent Enhancement hasn't been completely ruled out.
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Re: 2021 Summer League Thread 

Post#17 » by DCZards » Mon Aug 9, 2021 4:22 pm

nate33 wrote:The only rationale for masks and social distancing at this point is if hospitals get overwhelmed. But if they weren't overwhelmed last year with no vaccines and only 5% natural immunity, they're not going to get overwhelmed this year with 60% vaccination rate and 30% natural immunity.

What are you talking about!! Many hospitals and healthcare workers were overwhelmed last year...and those unvaccinated fools have begun overwhelming some hospitals again.

The good news is that recent numbers show that the unvaccinated are finally getting a clue and starting to get vaccinated.
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Re: 2021 Summer League Thread 

Post#18 » by nate33 » Mon Aug 9, 2021 4:51 pm

DCZards wrote:
nate33 wrote:The only rationale for masks and social distancing at this point is if hospitals get overwhelmed. But if they weren't overwhelmed last year with no vaccines and only 5% natural immunity, they're not going to get overwhelmed this year with 60% vaccination rate and 30% natural immunity.

What are you talking about!! Many hospitals and healthcare workers were overwhelmed last year...and those unvaccinated fools have begun overwhelming some hospitals again.

The good news is that recent numbers show that the unvaccinated are finally getting a clue and starting to get vaccinated.

Case rates nationwide are 70% off the peak last year. And death rates are 85% off the peak. DC and MD are currently doing a bit better than the national average, so the situation there is even less of a concern.
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Re: 2021 Summer League Thread 

Post#19 » by doclinkin » Mon Aug 9, 2021 5:22 pm

nate33 wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
DCZards wrote:Yeah…but if the vaccinated folks are attending social gatherings and spreading the virus to other vaccinated people very few of them are likely to end up at home with a headache or bad fever.

It’s the knuckleheads who are refusing to get vaccinated for stupid a** reasons who are ending up hospitalized or dead…and forcing the rest of us to face another shutdown.

The unvaccinated include children - who have not made choices. Of course, there are enormous problems with the unvaccinated - including the crowding of hospitals here and all over the world - which lowers the quality of care for hospital patients in general and over-burdens hospital workers - also resulting in lower quality of care for hospital patients in general. Generally speaking, civilizations tend to frown on people unnecessarily suffering and dying from pandemics.

Fine. Then let's ban obesity. Fat people can't eat at restaurants anymore. Ban smoking too. How far down the road of medical tyranny do you want to take this?


You can't acccidentaly pass obesity to other people. You can't contract cigarette smoking through airborne particles. The road of medical tyranny should stop at, hmm, I guess most things short of a global pandemic. That said, kids are required to get MMR vaccines before they can attend public schools, so I'd suggest perhaps exactly that level of medical tyranny.
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Re: 2021 Summer League Thread 

Post#20 » by I_Like_Dirt » Mon Aug 9, 2021 5:34 pm

doclinkin wrote:
nate33 wrote:
Ruzious wrote:The unvaccinated include children - who have not made choices. Of course, there are enormous problems with the unvaccinated - including the crowding of hospitals here and all over the world - which lowers the quality of care for hospital patients in general and over-burdens hospital workers - also resulting in lower quality of care for hospital patients in general. Generally speaking, civilizations tend to frown on people unnecessarily suffering and dying from pandemics.

Fine. Then let's ban obesity. Fat people can't eat at restaurants anymore. Ban smoking too. How far down the road of medical tyranny do you want to take this?


You can't acccidentaly pass obesity to other people. You can't contract cigarette smoking through airborne particles. The road of medical tyranny should stop at, hmm, I guess most things short of a global pandemic. That said, kids are required to get MMR vaccines before they can attend public schools, so I'd suggest perhaps exactly that level of medical tyranny.
We do actually have restrictions on where you can and can't smoke anyway.

The entire push for individual health over public health kind of misses the point. To effectively combat covid beyond a superficial level you need to take a mass approach to the problem. Getting 60% of the population vaccinated doesn't actually do much. Treating it as an individual health issue is like arguing polio should be an individual health issue because we'd rather have that back. The in-between mostly just leans towards no vaccinations. Vaccines do help but they aren't some suit of armor for an individual. They are a collective treatment. I don't think Iceland is a very good comparison for a whole host of reasons - more tests, smaller population where everyone is in an island and related, etc. There are things to learn from them for sure but vaccines don't help isn't one of them.
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