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Wizards Board COVID-19 Thread

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Re: Wizards Board COVID-19 Thread 

Post#221 » by Dat2U » Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:55 pm

Ruzious wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
nate33 wrote:
It's probably just a small sample size issue, now that Dat2U has pointed out that it's just one office. But if it was the entire NIH, I would consider it to be a noteworthy data point.


To clarify, the 60-70% as of 9/9 as referring to all of NIH. And no the remaining 30% of those folks aren't all janitors lol.

The article Ruz pointed to was indicating the results for just one specific branch.

There's probably ZERO scientists there that have not been vaccinated.


Ok, if you say so, lol. Clearly anyone here with a scientific background is monolithic in their thinking despite the incredibly diverse backgrounds many come from. No chance there's a hint of disagreement from anyone capable of writing a dissertation or containing half a brain for that matter.
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Re: Wizards Board COVID-19 Thread 

Post#222 » by Ruzious » Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:14 am

Dat2U wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
To clarify, the 60-70% as of 9/9 as referring to all of NIH. And no the remaining 30% of those folks aren't all janitors lol.

The article Ruz pointed to was indicating the results for just one specific branch.

There's probably ZERO scientists there that have not been vaccinated.


Ok, if you say so, lol. Clearly anyone here with a scientific background is monolithic in their thinking despite the incredibly diverse backgrounds many come from. No chance there's a hint of disagreement from anyone capable of writing a dissertation or containing half a brain for that matter.

I don't think science should vary depending on your background - certainly not for basic things like whether or not a vaccine is effective.
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Re: Wizards Board COVID-19 Thread 

Post#223 » by badinage » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:18 am

Man, Beal’s wife. Pretty, but pretty ignorant.

Which for me pretty much wipes out the pretty.

This is the great problem of social media — people who know nothing, and who say that nothing in profoundly uninteresting ways, getting a chance to talk.

We have people to do that. They’re called writers and thinkers.
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Re: Wizards Board COVID-19 Thread 

Post#224 » by DCZards » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:20 am

badinage wrote:Man, Beal’s wife. Pretty, but pretty ignorant.

Which for me pretty much wipes out the pretty.

This is the great problem of social media — people who know nothing, and who say that nothing in profoundly uninteresting ways, getting a chance to talk.

We have people to do that. They’re called writers and thinkers.

Yeah...I'm not a much of a fan of Beal's wife social media activity. But there is that pesky little thing called the First Amendment.

And I'm also not a fan of so-called "writers and thinkers" being the only ones whose opinions we should pay attention to...because a lot of them don't know what the hell they're talking about either.
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Re: Wizards Board COVID-19 Thread 

Post#225 » by dckingsfan » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:54 pm

Ruzious wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
Ruzious wrote:There's probably ZERO scientists there that have not been vaccinated.

Ok, if you say so, lol. Clearly anyone here with a scientific background is monolithic in their thinking despite the incredibly diverse backgrounds many come from. No chance there's a hint of disagreement from anyone capable of writing a dissertation or containing half a brain for that matter.

I don't think science should vary depending on your background - certainly not for basic things like whether or not a vaccine is effective.

I think the key here is look at the doctor and PhD vaccination rates (especially among immunologists, virologists, et. al.). It is approaching 100%.

If you are going to take advice on getting or not getting a vaccine it shouldn't be from some schmoe.

There are disagreements among that cohort around a third dose, for example. But there is virtually no disagreement that the vaccine is efficacious and safe. There is no disagreement that it is the best way forward to not overwhelm our fragile hospital systems.

The citing that some at NIH haven't vaccinated was a red herring/strawman against the reality that doctors and PhD's (in this subject matter) is nearing 100% was intentionally ignored.
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Re: Wizards Board COVID-19 Thread 

Post#226 » by nate33 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:20 pm

dckingsfan wrote:The citing that some at NIH haven't vaccinated was a red herring/strawman against the reality that doctors and PhD's (in this subject matter) is nearing 100% was intentionally ignored.

Do you have a source for that 100% figure? You've stated it twice. I'm not disputing you, I honestly have no idea.
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Re: Wizards Board COVID-19 Thread 

Post#227 » by doclinkin » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:33 pm

nate33 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:The citing that some at NIH haven't vaccinated was a red herring/strawman against the reality that doctors and PhD's (in this subject matter) is nearing 100% was intentionally ignored.

Do you have a source for that 100% figure? You've stated it twice. I'm not disputing you, I honestly have no idea.


AMA:
96% as of June.

https://www.ama-assn.org/system/files/2021-06/physician-vaccination-study-topline-report.pdf

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/09/02/fact-check-viral-post-vaccinated-politicians-doctors-little-off/5670809001/
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Re: Wizards Board COVID-19 Thread 

Post#228 » by dckingsfan » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:41 pm

nate33 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:The citing that some at NIH haven't vaccinated was a red herring/strawman against the reality that doctors and PhD's (in this subject matter) is nearing 100% was intentionally ignored.

Do you have a source for that 100% figure? You've stated it twice. I'm not disputing you, I honestly have no idea.

This was back in June...

https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-survey-shows-over-96-doctors-fully-vaccinated-against-covid-19
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Re: Wizards Board COVID-19 Thread 

Post#229 » by badinage » Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:01 pm

DCZards wrote:
badinage wrote:Man, Beal’s wife. Pretty, but pretty ignorant.

Which for me pretty much wipes out the pretty.

This is the great problem of social media — people who know nothing, and who say that nothing in profoundly uninteresting ways, getting a chance to talk.

We have people to do that. They’re called writers and thinkers.

Yeah...I'm not a much of a fan of Beal's wife social media activity. But there is that pesky little thing called the First Amendment.

And I'm also not a fan of so-called "writers and thinkers" being the only ones whose opinions we should pay attention to...because a lot of them don't know what the hell they're talking about either.



Oh, she has a right to say what she wants.

But in a better world, no one would pay attention. No one would care.

As for knowing what you’re talking about — that’s not my issue, exactly. Would be nice. But being able to use words in a way that is interesting, that is thoughtful (even if not expert) — that’s more of the meat for me.

And that is what writers and thinkers can do.

Real writers and real thinkers — who, if we had a society, that valued the right things, that rewarded the right things, would be given the place they deserve in the culture. The status they deserve.

Instead, this depressing cavalcade of people with a platform.
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Re: Wizards Board COVID-19 Thread 

Post#230 » by nate33 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:13 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
nate33 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:The citing that some at NIH haven't vaccinated was a red herring/strawman against the reality that doctors and PhD's (in this subject matter) is nearing 100% was intentionally ignored.

Do you have a source for that 100% figure? You've stated it twice. I'm not disputing you, I honestly have no idea.

This was back in June...

https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-survey-shows-over-96-doctors-fully-vaccinated-against-covid-19

Thanks.

To be fair, the mandates imposed by their employers are presumably a significant factor. I'd be curious to know the vaccination rate for heath care researchers, epidemiologists, biologists, etc. It's probably pretty high too, but it would less likely to be a statistic distorted by employer mandates.

I recall a while ago (early Spring) that Fauci let slip that 30-40% of the CDC and FDA were not vaccinated despite vaccines being available for several months. At the time, their vaccination rate was lower than the rate for U.S. adults.
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Re: Wizards Board COVID-19 Thread 

Post#231 » by dckingsfan » Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:42 pm

nate33 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
nate33 wrote:Do you have a source for that 100% figure? You've stated it twice. I'm not disputing you, I honestly have no idea.

This was back in June...

https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-survey-shows-over-96-doctors-fully-vaccinated-against-covid-19

Thanks.

To be fair, the mandates imposed by their employers are presumably a significant factor. I'd be curious to know the vaccination rate for heath care researchers, epidemiologists, biologists, etc. It's probably pretty high too, but it would less likely to be a statistic distorted by employer mandates.

I recall a while ago (early Spring) that Fauci let slip that 30-40% of the CDC and FDA were not vaccinated despite vaccines being available for several months. At the time, their vaccination rate was lower than the rate for U.S. adults.

Nah - docs were vaccinated way before any mandates. By the time Houston Methodist put in a mandate the docs were 100% vaccinated.

Some say, watch what someone does and not what they say. Well, docs have walked the walk. The rest is just noise...
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Re: Wizards Board COVID-19 Thread 

Post#232 » by Illuminaire » Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:58 pm

nate33 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
nate33 wrote:Do you have a source for that 100% figure? You've stated it twice. I'm not disputing you, I honestly have no idea.

This was back in June...

https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-survey-shows-over-96-doctors-fully-vaccinated-against-covid-19

Thanks.

To be fair, the mandates imposed by their employers are presumably a significant factor. I'd be curious to know the vaccination rate for heath care researchers, epidemiologists, biologists, etc. It's probably pretty high too, but it would less likely to be a statistic distorted by employer mandates.

I recall a while ago (early Spring) that Fauci let slip that 30-40% of the CDC and FDA were not vaccinated despite vaccines being available for several months. At the time, their vaccination rate was lower than the rate for U.S. adults.


I have a small grain of salt for that figure. One, I can't find any details on how the survey was conducted. (If you find the full published version with methodology, please link it!)

Surveys can be easily skewed if the surveying party has an a priori position, which the AMA most certainly does.

Two, Canada is exceptionally pro-vaccine, but their reported numbers are quite a lot lower than 96% plus. The available data for Canadian physicians is between 80 and 90% vaccinated.

I don't doubt that a large majority of physicians have gone for vaccination, but if I was asked to wager, it's closer to 90% than it is to one hundred.
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Re: Wizards Board COVID-19 Thread 

Post#233 » by Kanyewest » Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:54 pm

Illuminaire wrote:
nate33 wrote:

Thanks.

To be fair, the mandates imposed by their employers are presumably a significant factor. I'd be curious to know the vaccination rate for heath care researchers, epidemiologists, biologists, etc. It's probably pretty high too, but it would less likely to be a statistic distorted by employer mandates.

I recall a while ago (early Spring) that Fauci let slip that 30-40% of the CDC and FDA were not vaccinated despite vaccines being available for several months. At the time, their vaccination rate was lower than the rate for U.S. adults.


I have a small grain of salt for that figure. One, I can't find any details on how the survey was conducted. (If you find the full published version with methodology, please link it!)

Surveys can be easily skewed if the surveying party has an a priori position, which the AMA most certainly does.

Two, Canada is exceptionally pro-vaccine, but their reported numbers are quite a lot lower than 96% plus. The available data for Canadian physicians is between 80 and 90% vaccinated.

I don't doubt that a large majority of physicians have gone for vaccination, but if I was asked to wager, it's closer to 90% than it is to one hundred.

Within the article itself there is a link to the power point that describes how they collected the data.

Objective:
• The AMA’s Advocacy team would like to survey practicing physicians to determine
current COVID-19 vaccination rates.
Methodology:
• AMA developed the survey questionnaire and WebMD programmed and fielded the
5–7 minute survey through their physician panel
• The survey was fielded from June 3 to June 8, 2021.
• Sample size – N=301; respondent mix includes:
• N=150 PCPs (Family Medicine, Internal Medicine, General Medicine, Pediatrics,
OB/GYN)
• N=151 Specialists (All other specialties)


https://www.ama-assn.org/system/files/2021-06/physician-vaccination-study-topline-report.pdf
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Re: Wizards Board COVID-19 Thread 

Post#234 » by badinage » Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:16 am

badinage wrote:
DCZards wrote:
badinage wrote:Man, Beal’s wife. Pretty, but pretty ignorant.

Which for me pretty much wipes out the pretty.

This is the great problem of social media — people who know nothing, and who say that nothing in profoundly uninteresting ways, getting a chance to talk.

We have people to do that. They’re called writers and thinkers.

Yeah...I'm not a much of a fan of Beal's wife social media activity. But there is that pesky little thing called the First Amendment.

And I'm also not a fan of so-called "writers and thinkers" being the only ones whose opinions we should pay attention to...because a lot of them don't know what the hell they're talking about either.



Oh, she has a right to say what she wants.

But in a better world, no one would pay attention. No one would care.

As for knowing what you’re talking about — that’s not my issue, exactly. Would be nice. But being able to use words in a way that is interesting, that is thoughtful (even if not expert) — that’s more of the meat for me.

And that is what writers and thinkers can do.

Real writers and real thinkers — who, if we had a society that valued the right things, that rewarded the right things, would be given the place they deserve in the culture. The status they deserve.

Instead, this depressing cavalcade of people with a platform.
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Re: Wizards Board COVID-19 Thread 

Post#235 » by DCZards » Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:19 am

Illuminaire wrote:I have a small grain of salt for that figure. One, I can't find any details on how the survey was conducted. (If you find the full published version with methodology, please link it!)

Surveys can be easily skewed if the surveying party has an a priori position, which the AMA most certainly does.

Two, Canada is exceptionally pro-vaccine, but their reported numbers are quite a lot lower than 96% plus. The available data for Canadian physicians is between 80 and 90% vaccinated.

I don't doubt that a large majority of physicians have gone for vaccination, but if I was asked to wager, it's closer to 90% than it is to one hundred.

It's very unlikely that 100% of Canadian docs are vaccinated. Just like the general population there are probably some docs who have health/medical reasons for not getting vaccinated...like bad reactions to other vaccines.

But the fact that 85-90% of the Canadian docs are vaccinated (which is also probably true of docs in the US) speaks volumes...and should send a message to those who fear the vaccines based on misinformation about the risks.
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Re: Wizards Board COVID-19 Thread 

Post#236 » by Illuminaire » Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:36 am

Kanyewest wrote:Within the article itself there is a link to the power point that describes how they collected the data.

Objective:
• The AMA’s Advocacy team would like to survey practicing physicians to determine
current COVID-19 vaccination rates.
Methodology:
• AMA developed the survey questionnaire and WebMD programmed and fielded the
5–7 minute survey through their physician panel
• The survey was fielded from June 3 to June 8, 2021.
• Sample size – N=301; respondent mix includes:
• N=150 PCPs (Family Medicine, Internal Medicine, General Medicine, Pediatrics,
OB/GYN)
• N=151 Specialists (All other specialties)


https://www.ama-assn.org/system/files/2021-06/physician-vaccination-study-topline-report.pdf


I appreciate the link that I apparently missed! I'll check it out.
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Re: Wizards Board COVID-19 Thread 

Post#237 » by Illuminaire » Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:57 am

DCZards wrote:It's very unlikely that 100% of Canadian docs are vaccinated. Just like the general population there are probably some docs who have health/medical reasons for not getting vaccinated...like bad reactions to other vaccines.

But the fact that 85-90% of the Canadian docs are vaccinated (which is also probably true of docs in the US) speaks volumes...and should send a message to those who fear the vaccines based on misinformation about the risks.


I hear you. I also feel like I should respond to that statement about fearing the vaccine. That's true for some, but I think for many, it's a complicated nest of issues.

For one, there is a general distrust of corporate-driven consensus, including that of pharmaceutical companies. Just in the last few decades, there have been many cases of drugs or vaccines being touted as safe and effective, only for people to find out years later that very real dangers were covered up or ignored. (Even considering well meaning doctors, bear in mind that there was a time when 99.9% of physicians refused to believe that washing their hands could save lives.)

Another part of the picture is that we cannot possibly know potential long term side effects at this time. In parallel, we have a fairly solid grasp on the statistical risk of covid based on age, health factors, and other key consideations. For many people, physicians or not, the choice is between a very low, known risk and a giant question mark.

Then there is the component where that has been high profile, highly public disinformation and wild policy swings coming out of the Federal government. There is a natural human response to question things that seem true, when the same source said things that definitely were not.

I do think there is an emotional fear component to all of this reasoning, but that's true of everyone involved. Some are afraid of what covid can do to them. Others, what covid can do to their loved ones. Some are afraid of what the vaccine might cause now, or years down the line. Some are afraid of an overbearing government, and how no crisis goes to waste. There's a lot of fear to be had, it's the number one product of the pandemic.

If you've read this far, thanks for reading my rambling thoughts. I'm not trying to change your mind, or anyone here. I'm just trying to add some context to your image of what people who think differently are actually thinking, so you can understand both the rational and the emotional drivers behind them.
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Re: Wizards Board COVID-19 Thread 

Post#238 » by tontoz » Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:28 pm

Long term side effects are far less likely for vaccines than with ordinary drugs for a simple reason, they don't stay in your system long. A typical drug you might take for days, weeks or months. Vaccine is one or two shots and you are done.

Side effects from a vaccine are almost always short term. If you don't notice anything unusual a month after the vaccine then you are almost certainly completely safe. The severe reactions, especially allergic reactions, happen quickly.
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Re: Wizards Board COVID-19 Thread 

Post#239 » by Ruzious » Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:38 pm

tontoz wrote:Long term side effects are far less likely for vaccines than with ordinary drugs for a simple reason, they don't stay in your system long. A typical drug you might take for days, weeks or months. Vaccine is one or two shots and you are done.

Side effects from a vaccine are almost always short term. If you don't notice anything unusual a month after the vaccine then you are almost certainly completely safe. The severe reactions, especially allergic reactions, happen quickly.

It's interesting that you generally don't have to worry about vaccines interactions with prescription drugs - though there are probably some exceptions. They don't work in the same way.
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Re: Wizards Board COVID-19 Thread 

Post#240 » by nate33 » Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:38 pm

tontoz wrote:Long term side effects are far less likely for vaccines than with ordinary drugs for a simple reason, they don't stay in your system long. A typical drug you might take for days, weeks or months. Vaccine is one or two shots and you are done.

Side effects from a vaccine are almost always short term. If you don't notice anything unusual a month after the vaccine then you are almost certainly completely safe. The severe reactions, especially allergic reactions, happen quickly.

My long term concern isn't really about a side effect of the vaccine. I agree that severe reactions will happen within a month, or not at all. My long term concern is for the potential of ADE - Antibody Dependent Enhancement. As I understand it, the evidence for ADE has been virtually non-existent so far, but as the virus mutates, that could change.

Ultimately, it's not a very big concern, it's just one of the small risks that must be considered with the vaccine, in addition to the small risk of blood clots and myocarditis. For most people, particularly those who are old or have comorbidities, those risks are small relative to the risk of Covid. But for young healthy people, the risk of Covid is also quite small so those vaccine risks become worthy of consideration.

What bugs me is that inability and unwillingness of the media to properly articulate how small the Covid risk is for healthy, young people (and people who have already survived infection). Data available from Scotland (which is quite good because it factors age and comorbidities) shows a total of 10,395 Covid deaths so far out of 5.4 million Scots. Of those 10,395 deaths, only 704 (6.7%) have been to people without comorbidities. And only 10 have been to people under age 40 with no comorbidities. Those 10 deaths represent just one-tenth of one percent of total Covid deaths. And assuming roughly 40% of Scots have now been infected by Covid so far, the data shows that just 12 Scots per million who are under 40 without comorbidities have died after contracting Covid. With a Covid risk so low, why take on the risk of a vaccine? Even if the vaccine is almost certainly safe, you really aren't improving your odds of living enough for it to be worth it. For comparison, the odds of dying in a car accident, each year, is 520 per million.

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