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Official Trade Thread - Part XLII

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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#381 » by Frichuela » Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:05 pm

Ruzious wrote:
Frichuela wrote:
nate33 wrote:Yes, that's a fair point. I still think Bertans at $16M is a worse contract than Kuzma at $13M, so I'd move Bertans first. But if Bertans can't be moved, moving Kuzma is the next best alternative, and probably a lot easier to pull off.


In this regard, would we want someone like Coby White? Chicago needs a PF desperately given that Pat Williams is injured all season.

If we think Coby White could be an answer as a third guard, maybe Coby White + D Jones Jr + Portland's 2022 1st (Top 14 protected) for Kuzma + Holiday?

Another option is to try something like Bertans+Todd for Coby White + D Jones Jr. Though here Chicago will likely say no...

Yeah, Chicago is 12-5 without a PF. Gotta figure there's an opportunity for the Wiz there. Agreed Chi would likely much prefer Kuzma over Bertans.


Another dream trade would be Bertans+Holiday for Derrick White of SAS...Derrick White has underperformed this season (29% in 3 pt shooting) and his contract runs identical to Bertans. However, realistically, we'll have to add more and I'm not sure what else we can offer. Maybe Todd+Neto (instead of Holiday) if SAS thinks Todd is worth the investment...
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#382 » by Ruzious » Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:30 pm

Frichuela wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
Frichuela wrote:
In this regard, would we want someone like Coby White? Chicago needs a PF desperately given that Pat Williams is injured all season.

If we think Coby White could be an answer as a third guard, maybe Coby White + D Jones Jr + Portland's 2022 1st (Top 14 protected) for Kuzma + Holiday?

Another option is to try something like Bertans+Todd for Coby White + D Jones Jr. Though here Chicago will likely say no...

Yeah, Chicago is 12-5 without a PF. Gotta figure there's an opportunity for the Wiz there. Agreed Chi would likely much prefer Kuzma over Bertans.


Another dream trade would be Bertans+Holiday for Derrick White of SAS...Derrick White has underperformed this season (29% in 3 pt shooting) and his contract runs identical to Bertans. However, realistically, we'll have to add more and I'm not sure what else we can offer. Maybe Todd+Neto (instead of Holiday) if SAS thinks Todd is worth the investment...

Well, SA's a rebuilding team - whether they want to or not - and they've already gotten rid of Bertans, so I don't see them having any interest in him, and I don't think Neto and Todd have any real trade value.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#383 » by payitforward » Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:34 pm

Ruzious wrote:
payitforward wrote:... don't we still have a R2 pick coming our way from Chicago? We do have OKC's R2 pick in the 2024 draft.....

Washington traded away 5 2nd round picks (3 to LAL, 1 to SA, and 1 to Brooklyn) plus a 2nd round swap in 2025 in Brooklyn's favor in the Westbrook trade. I think the pick SA got was the Chicago 2022 pick, and I believe we no longer have either of the picks you mentioned. The next 2nd rounder we have (unless trade(s) are made) will be a "lower of" pick in 2025. We have our own 2nd round pick in 2026 and 2027, but LAL has our 2028 2nd rounder. https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/future_drafts/detailed#:~:text=Future%20Traded%20Pick%20Details%20%20%20%20Team,York%20%20...%20%2015%20more%20rows%20

Right. I forgot that we voided ourselves that way in the Westbrook trade. Since it seems increasingly likely that we will lose our 2023 R1 pick, we are facing something of a problem in team development.

Any trades we make should focus on adding picks (R1 or R2) &/or making us younger. Not an easy task.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#384 » by NatP4 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:10 pm

I really think the trade for Derrick white would have to involve Rui+filler. He’s always been a prospect that I could see the Spurs really liking.

White is a great buy low candidate with his struggles so far this season. When he’s playing like himself, he’s a very underrated quality player on both ends and a perfect 3rd guard for Dinwiddie and Beal.

I think we can move on from Rui now that Deni looks like a really really good young player, capable of playing the 4 position full time. Kispert looks like the future at the 2/3.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#385 » by pcbothwel » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:23 pm

NatP4 wrote:I really think the trade for Derrick white would have to involve Rui+filler. He’s always been a prospect that I could see the Spurs really liking.

White is a great buy low candidate with his struggles so far this season. When he’s playing like himself, he’s a very underrated quality player on both ends and a perfect 3rd guard for Dinwiddie and Beal.

I think we can move on from Rui now that Deni looks like a really really good young player, capable of playing the 4 position full time. Kispert looks like the future at the 2/3.


Unless Rui is just terrible, no way to I trade him for Derrick White. Dude will be 28 when the finals roll around and has been awful this year. I trade Kuz in a straight swap and throw in Holiday if they like. Thats it given his contract.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#386 » by nate33 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:23 pm

NatP4 wrote:I really think the trade for Derrick white would have to involve Rui+filler. He’s always been a prospect that I could see the Spurs really liking.

White is a great buy low candidate with his struggles so far this season. When he’s playing like himself, he’s a very underrated quality player on both ends and a perfect 3rd guard for Dinwiddie and Beal.

I think we can move on from Rui now that Deni looks like a really really good young player, capable of playing the 4 position full time. Kispert looks like the future at the 2/3.

I want to see Hachimura play some this year before considering moving him. I think he's not far from being a reliable 3-point threat and that will open up a lot more offensive flexibility. And he and Avdija together could be a truly disruptive tandem on D. I agree that they're both natural 4's, but either guy can play a handful of minutes at the 3 (enough so they both get 30-32 total minutes a game). Then add a true 3 like KCP as the third guy, and it's a fine forward rotation.

As I said before, I'd move Kuzma before moving Rui. Now, if the return from a Rui trade is much higher than the return from a Kuzma trade, then that could change things.

Also, I'm definitely not sold on Kispert as "the future" at the 2/3. I think it's more likely that he is a future backup.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#387 » by NatP4 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:30 pm

Of course. Kuzma is a bad player and a bad contract. Rui is a former top 10 pick still on his rookie deal, an actual trade piece.

Rui, Bryant, Holiday for Derrick White is a realistic trade package.

I’d love to just send Kuzma and Todd. That would be great. The Spurs wouldn’t do that.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#388 » by NatP4 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:32 pm

pcbothwel wrote:
NatP4 wrote:I really think the trade for Derrick white would have to involve Rui+filler. He’s always been a prospect that I could see the Spurs really liking.

White is a great buy low candidate with his struggles so far this season. When he’s playing like himself, he’s a very underrated quality player on both ends and a perfect 3rd guard for Dinwiddie and Beal.

I think we can move on from Rui now that Deni looks like a really really good young player, capable of playing the 4 position full time. Kispert looks like the future at the 2/3.


Unless Rui is just terrible, no way to I trade him for Derrick White. Dude will be 28 when the finals roll around and has been awful this year. I trade Kuz in a straight swap and throw in Holiday if they like. Thats it given his contract.


That is completely ridiculous. You are talking about a 15 game sample size vs 188 games of being a very good player. White is a career 15-5-5-1-1 with less than 2 turnovers and a 56.3% TS and ELITE defense. He’s been one of the better guards in the league for multiple seasons.

This board continues to completely overvalue Hachimura.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#389 » by NatP4 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:39 pm

nate33 wrote:
pcbothwel wrote:The guy I look to move is Kuzma. He's redundant with Rui and Deni and just too inefficient.

Yes, that's a fair point. I still think Bertans at $16M is a worse contract than Kuzma at $13M, so I'd move Bertans first. But if Bertans can't be moved, moving Kuzma is the next best alternative, and probably a lot easier to pull off.


How can someone actually think this? Is this based on the 7 games from this season?

Kuzma has been a total boat anchor for his entire career. When he is on the floor the team sucks, when he’s off, the team is significantly better. Bertans has been the total opposite, a massive positive his entire career. They are quite literally opposite ends of spectrum in terms of impact.

You think the 3 million difference in salary wipes all of that out? A healthy Bertans is exactly what this team needs. Right now teams can zone us and we don’t have enough shooting to break it.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#390 » by nate33 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:01 pm

NatP4 wrote:
nate33 wrote:
pcbothwel wrote:The guy I look to move is Kuzma. He's redundant with Rui and Deni and just too inefficient.

Yes, that's a fair point. I still think Bertans at $16M is a worse contract than Kuzma at $13M, so I'd move Bertans first. But if Bertans can't be moved, moving Kuzma is the next best alternative, and probably a lot easier to pull off.


How can someone actually think this? Is this based on the 7 games from this season?

Kuzma has been a total boat anchor for his entire career. When he is on the floor the team sucks, when he’s off, the team is significantly better. Bertans has been the total opposite, a massive positive his entire career. They are quite literally opposite ends of spectrum in terms of impact.

You think the 3 million difference in salary wipes all of that out? A healthy Bertans is exactly what this team needs. Right now teams can zone us and we don’t have enough shooting to break it.

We've had this discussion before. On/off is not that useful of an evaluation metric when one guy is always going against starters and the other guy is going against backups. It's also pretty close to useless with sample sizes this small.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#391 » by nate33 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:04 pm

NatP4 wrote:
pcbothwel wrote:
NatP4 wrote:I really think the trade for Derrick white would have to involve Rui+filler. He’s always been a prospect that I could see the Spurs really liking.

White is a great buy low candidate with his struggles so far this season. When he’s playing like himself, he’s a very underrated quality player on both ends and a perfect 3rd guard for Dinwiddie and Beal.

I think we can move on from Rui now that Deni looks like a really really good young player, capable of playing the 4 position full time. Kispert looks like the future at the 2/3.


Unless Rui is just terrible, no way to I trade him for Derrick White. Dude will be 28 when the finals roll around and has been awful this year. I trade Kuz in a straight swap and throw in Holiday if they like. Thats it given his contract.


That is completely ridiculous. You are talking about a 15 game sample size vs 188 games of being a very good player. White is a career 15-5-5-1-1 with less than 2 turnovers and a 56.3% TS and ELITE defense. He’s been one of the better guards in the league for multiple seasons.

This board continues to completely overvalue Hachimura.

White has DEFINITELY declined since peaking two years ago. The injuries have sapped his athleticism. Maybe he'll get better the more time elapses since his injury. On the other hand, maybe he'll get hurt again.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#392 » by NatP4 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:22 pm

nate33 wrote:
NatP4 wrote:
nate33 wrote:Yes, that's a fair point. I still think Bertans at $16M is a worse contract than Kuzma at $13M, so I'd move Bertans first. But if Bertans can't be moved, moving Kuzma is the next best alternative, and probably a lot easier to pull off.


How can someone actually think this? Is this based on the 7 games from this season?

Kuzma has been a total boat anchor for his entire career. When he is on the floor the team sucks, when he’s off, the team is significantly better. Bertans has been the total opposite, a massive positive his entire career. They are quite literally opposite ends of spectrum in terms of impact.

You think the 3 million difference in salary wipes all of that out? A healthy Bertans is exactly what this team needs. Right now teams can zone us and we don’t have enough shooting to break it.

We've had this discussion before. On/off is not that useful of an evaluation metric when one guy is always going against starters and the other guy is going against backups. It's also pretty close to useless with sample sizes this small.


We are talking about a sample size of more than 4 full seasons.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#393 » by nate33 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:30 pm

NatP4 wrote:
nate33 wrote:
NatP4 wrote:
How can someone actually think this? Is this based on the 7 games from this season?

Kuzma has been a total boat anchor for his entire career. When he is on the floor the team sucks, when he’s off, the team is significantly better. Bertans has been the total opposite, a massive positive his entire career. They are quite literally opposite ends of spectrum in terms of impact.

You think the 3 million difference in salary wipes all of that out? A healthy Bertans is exactly what this team needs. Right now teams can zone us and we don’t have enough shooting to break it.

We've had this discussion before. On/off is not that useful of an evaluation metric when one guy is always going against starters and the other guy is going against backups. It's also pretty close to useless with sample sizes this small.


We are talking about a sample size of more than 4 full seasons.

4 seasons showing Bertans, as a backup playing against backups, has outperformed a very weak starting lineup in Washington (Beal, Bryant and trash one year, and Westbrook, Beal and trash the next year), and he has played alongside a very strong bench unit in San Antonio to outperform their very weak starting unit.

And 4 seasons showing that Kuzma could not post positive on/off numbers when he got on the floor to replace Lebron freaking James, and before that his on/off numbers were breakeven as a rookie and 2nd year player.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#394 » by long suffrin' boulez fan » Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:39 am

Could Eric Gordon be had for an expiring? Maybe Bryant.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#395 » by gambitx777 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:33 am

long suffrin' boulez fan wrote:Could Eric Gordon be had for an expiring? Maybe Bryant.
No way on earth I'm moving Bryant for Gordon.

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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#396 » by gambitx777 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:45 am

Bertans hasn't been able to stay healthy and I don't believe luz is anywhere near as bad as people think. I'd trade bertans in a heart beat if I could. Ruis 3 pt shooting was showing some promise so I'll hope that develops before I hope bertans can stay healthy again.


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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#397 » by 9 and 20 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:07 am

Bertans had everything going for him to be a Scalabrine-type local legend. The neck beard, the red-ish hair, the non-basketball player body, and general busted-ness. Head looks like a bruised pear.

All he had to do was try a little bit. Instead, he quit playing halfway during the bubble season, pocketed that big contract, and has been too fat to play ever since. This dude is so unlikable.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#398 » by doclinkin » Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:40 pm

9 and 20 wrote:Bertans had everything going for him to be a Scalabrine-type local legend. The neck beard, the red-ish hair, the non-basketball player body, and general busted-ness. Head looks like a bruised pear.

All he had to do was try a little bit. Instead, he quit playing halfway during the bubble season, pocketed that big contract, and has been too fat to play ever since. This dude is so unlikable.


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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#399 » by Frichuela » Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:56 pm

Do we honestly want to pay Beal the super Max?

If Philly bites, I’d seriously consider Simmons+Maxey for him. The latter is having a great season so far at just 21 years old.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#400 » by nate33 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:41 pm

Frichuela wrote:Do we honestly want to pay Beal the super Max?

If Philly bites, I’d seriously consider Simmons+Maxey for him. The latter is having a great season so far at just 21 years old.

Beal is still more important than most think he is as the guy who draws so much defensive attention. But yeah, I don't think Beal is worth the super max. That doesn't mean he shouldn't still be paid a lot of money. But he deserves to be paid more like Rudy Gobert, Gordon Hayward or Khris Middleton - a bit less than the max, without maximum raises. He's not in the Steph Curry, Kevin Durant, Jimmy Butler, Kawhi Leonard tier where you just pay him the most you can without thinking about it.

The way he is playing this year, I really don't think any good teams will gut their roster to come up with max cap room to pay him. The only teams with max cap room will be rebuilding teams. And they won't want a 29-year-old and Beal, and Beal won't want to play on a terrible team. So there will be negotiating leverage. I'd aim for a 4-year deal starting at roughly $35M and ending around $40M That puts him in line with guys like Middleton and Gobert, and pays him a bit more than younger stars maxed out on 2nd contracts (Booker, Murray, Simmons, Towns, Mitchell, Adebayo, Tatum, etc.). I'd actually try and frontload it since there is more cap flexibility now than there will be down the road, but that never seems to happen with the Wizards organization.

Regarding Beal for Simmons + Maxey, I'd think about it. But I'd still prefer to bring back Beal on a reasonable contract. I do like the loyalty angle of bringing Beal back. And it doesn't hurt to have a guy who you know busts his butt to make himself a better player every year. Also if we add Simmons, we'd have to make a ton of other changes to build the right kind of roster around him. Simmons won't work well with Harrell, Gafford or Rui, and maybe not even Avdija.

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