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Official Trade Thread - Part XLII

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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#401 » by DCZards » Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:24 pm

Given his current issues and the fact that he hasn’t played yet this season, I think we’re stuck with Rui at least for the next 2-3 months.

But that’s probably a good thing because it will give the Zards a chance to see how Rui looks with a new coach and new teammates, and in a new system…and to find out if the improved play that emerged during the playoffs is legit.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#402 » by Frichuela » Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:30 pm

nate33 wrote:
Frichuela wrote:Do we honestly want to pay Beal the super Max?

If Philly bites, I’d seriously consider Simmons+Maxey for him. The latter is having a great season so far at just 21 years old.

Beal is still more important than most think he is as the guy who draws so much defensive attention. But yeah, I don't think Beal is worth the super max. That doesn't mean he shouldn't still be paid a lot of money. But he deserves to be paid more like Rudy Gobert, Gordon Hayward or Khris Middleton - a bit less than the max, without maximum raises. He's not in the Steph Curry, Kevin Durant, Jimmy Butler, Kawhi Leonard tier where you just pay him the most you can without thinking about it.

The way he is playing this year, I really don't think any good teams will gut their roster to come up with max cap room to pay him. The only teams with max cap room will be rebuilding teams. And they won't want a 29-year-old and Beal, and Beal won't want to play on a terrible team. So there will be negotiating leverage. I'd aim for a 4-year deal starting at roughly $35M and ending around $40M That puts him in line with guys like Middleton and Gobert, and pays him a bit more than younger stars maxed out on 2nd contracts (Booker, Murray, Simmons, Towns, Mitchell, Adebayo, Tatum, etc.). I'd actually try and frontload it since there is more cap flexibility now than there will be down the road, but that never seems to happen with the Wizards organization.

Regarding Beal for Simmons + Maxey, I'd think about it. But I'd still prefer to bring back Beal on a reasonable contract. I do like the loyalty angle of bringing Beal back. And it doesn't hurt to have a guy who you know busts his butt to make himself a better player every year. Also if we add Simmons, we'd have to make a ton of other changes to build the right kind of roster around him. Simmons won't work well with Harrell, Gafford or Rui, and maybe not even Avdija.


Problem is they already offered Beal the max possible extension so I struggle to see how realistically Terd & Tommy can convince Beal to take less and sacrifice for the good of the team.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#403 » by nate33 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:49 pm

Frichuela wrote:
nate33 wrote:
Frichuela wrote:Do we honestly want to pay Beal the super Max?

If Philly bites, I’d seriously consider Simmons+Maxey for him. The latter is having a great season so far at just 21 years old.

Beal is still more important than most think he is as the guy who draws so much defensive attention. But yeah, I don't think Beal is worth the super max. That doesn't mean he shouldn't still be paid a lot of money. But he deserves to be paid more like Rudy Gobert, Gordon Hayward or Khris Middleton - a bit less than the max, without maximum raises. He's not in the Steph Curry, Kevin Durant, Jimmy Butler, Kawhi Leonard tier where you just pay him the most you can without thinking about it.

The way he is playing this year, I really don't think any good teams will gut their roster to come up with max cap room to pay him. The only teams with max cap room will be rebuilding teams. And they won't want a 29-year-old and Beal, and Beal won't want to play on a terrible team. So there will be negotiating leverage. I'd aim for a 4-year deal starting at roughly $35M and ending around $40M That puts him in line with guys like Middleton and Gobert, and pays him a bit more than younger stars maxed out on 2nd contracts (Booker, Murray, Simmons, Towns, Mitchell, Adebayo, Tatum, etc.). I'd actually try and frontload it since there is more cap flexibility now than there will be down the road, but that never seems to happen with the Wizards organization.

Regarding Beal for Simmons + Maxey, I'd think about it. But I'd still prefer to bring back Beal on a reasonable contract. I do like the loyalty angle of bringing Beal back. And it doesn't hurt to have a guy who you know busts his butt to make himself a better player every year. Also if we add Simmons, we'd have to make a ton of other changes to build the right kind of roster around him. Simmons won't work well with Harrell, Gafford or Rui, and maybe not even Avdija.


Problem is they already offered Beal the max possible extension so I struggle to see how realistically Terd & Tommy can convince Beal to take less and sacrifice for the good of the team.

This is a dynamic marketplace. Value changes constantly. Beal missed out on his opportunity to sign when his perceived value was highest. That was his fault, not Sheppard's. Honestly, Beal has fallen off quite a bit from the last two seasons (unless he plays EXTREMELY well over the remaining 60+ games). That should be reflected in his contract.

Also, they offered 4 years $181M, which is considerably less than the supermax they could theoretically offer this summer. That extension started at $40.5M with 8% raises. This summer, they could offer $46M with 8% raises and tack on a 5th year. But there's no reason to give him the full supermax. At the very least, stand firm at the 4 year $181M offer. And I'd offer less. We are bidding against ourselves here.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#404 » by Ruzious » Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:33 pm

Frichuela wrote:Do we honestly want to pay Beal the super Max?

If Philly bites, I’d seriously consider Simmons+Maxey for him. The latter is having a great season so far at just 21 years old.

I'd settle for Simmons and Seth Curry because of fit. Maxey's weakness is 3 point shooting - which is the same as Simmons'. They'd be a bad fit together - as you'd want all your perimeter players around Simmons to be good outside shooters. Hence Curry - even though Maxey will be a better player than him and is much younger. Curry's a great fit with Simmons because he's a legit great shooter, and with Simmons and Dinwiddie, we have big guards to play with Curry. I'd also have Philly include the rights to Petrusev in any trade (he's playing in Europe this season).
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#405 » by pcbothwel » Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:01 pm

Between the money, the loyalty, the improved roster, and the coaching... I dont see Beal leaving. So I'll table any discussion of a Beal trade until closer to the deadline.
To me, the goal is to move the the two players who have been fools gold from the start and I was immediately underwhelmed by our acquisition of... Kuzma and Holiday.

I like White in SA as he seems like the perfect 3rd guard on a contender, but who knows how they value him.
I'd also add that Orlando looks prime for a trade. They need to move one of Fultz, Cole, or Hampton. All three would pique my interest as a third guard given the right price and they need a PF.
I would assume that Fultz is the odd man out, so a Fultz for Kuzma trade seems like a great fit
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#406 » by nate33 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:13 pm

pcbothwel wrote:Between the money, the loyalty, the improved roster, and the coaching... I dont see Beal leaving. So I'll table any discussion of a Beal trade until closer to the deadline.
To me, the goal is to move the the two players who have been fools gold from the start and I was immediately underwhelmed by our acquisition of... Kuzma and Holiday.

I like White in SA as he seems like the perfect 3rd guard on a contender, but who knows how they value him.
I'd also add that Orlando looks prime for a trade. They need to move one of Fultz, Cole, or Hampton. All three would pique my interest as a third guard given the right price and they need a PF.
I would assume that Fultz is the odd man out, so a Fultz for Kuzma trade seems like a great fit

If we do trade Kuzma for a 3rd guard, I like Holiday as our 4th guard more so than Neto. Neto is a better playmaker, but presumably that 3rd guard acquired via trade would be handling playmaking duties. I'd like our 4th guard to be an extremely pesky defender and good 3-point shooter, and that's Holiday.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#407 » by DCZards » Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:06 pm

nate33 wrote:
pcbothwel wrote:Between the money, the loyalty, the improved roster, and the coaching... I dont see Beal leaving. So I'll table any discussion of a Beal trade until closer to the deadline.
To me, the goal is to move the the two players who have been fools gold from the start and I was immediately underwhelmed by our acquisition of... Kuzma and Holiday.

I like White in SA as he seems like the perfect 3rd guard on a contender, but who knows how they value him.
I'd also add that Orlando looks prime for a trade. They need to move one of Fultz, Cole, or Hampton. All three would pique my interest as a third guard given the right price and they need a PF.
I would assume that Fultz is the odd man out, so a Fultz for Kuzma trade seems like a great fit

If we do trade Kuzma for a 3rd guard, I like Holiday as our 4th guard more so than Neto. Neto is a better playmaker, but presumably that 3rd guard acquired via trade would be handling playmaking duties. I'd like our 4th guard to be an extremely pesky defender and good 3-point shooter, and that's Holiday.

As much as I like Neto and his toughness I agree that Holiday is the one I'd keep between the two of them. A hard-nosed backcourt defender like Holiday is always an asset...even when they are not making shots or creating them for others.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#408 » by pcbothwel » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:27 pm

I disagree. Neto has proven to be the better scorer from 3 and at the rim and the better passer/AST:TOV ratio. They are both equal in terms of garnering STOCKS and rebounds, so you are preferring the less productive player at more than twice the price due to Holiday being "pesky" or "hard-nosed". Pass.
Holiday has been terrible this year as a scorer, which is in line with this career to date.
Neto has been almost as bad, but he is shooting 14 points below his career avg from 3 (24% vs 38%).

Neto shot 57/39/88 last year (58% TS), something that Holiday has never come close to sniffing.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#409 » by DCZards » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:34 pm

pcbothwel wrote:I disagree. Neto has proven to be the better scorer from 3 and at the rim and the better passer/AST:TOV ratio. They are both equal in terms of garnering STOCKS and rebounds, so you are preferring the less productive player at more than twice the price due to Holiday being "pesky" or "hard-nosed". Pass.
Holiday has been terrible this year as a scorer, which is in line with this career to date.
Neto has been almost as bad, but he is shooting 14 points below his career avg from 3 (24% vs 38%).

Neto shot 57/39/88 last year (58% TS), something that Holiday has never come close to sniffing.

On their careers, Holiday's offensive #s and Raul #s are pretty similar. Both have shot around 37% from 3 and 80% from the line. Raul has the edge when it comes to 2pt shooting.

Neither Raul or Aaron are making a ton of money (by NBA standards) so that's not a biggie, imo.

Raul's 3pt shooting and FT shooting have fallen off considerably this season. Holiday is outperforming him in both areas. Of course, there's plenty of time this season for Neto's shooting to improve.

Holiday is a much better (and bigger and stronger) defender and he's 24 years old in his fourth season, compared to Neto who is 29 years old in his 7th season.

Again, if I had to choose between the two, I prefer Holiday.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#410 » by pcbothwel » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:57 pm

Im still baffled by this.
- They are both expiring bench guards, so who really cares about the age discrepancy. You are not building around either. Oh, and Holiday is 25, not 24.
- We just paid a couple 2nds to move Hutch to the Spurs for just 5M, so dont act like 2.5M isnt something.
- You gloss over the difference in 2 point shooting as if 65-70% of their FGA arent 2PA...and Neto is a full 12 points higher

Again, outside of a small sample size this year, Neto has been the FAR better offensive player (Not even comparable) and a similar defensive player. Neto is also paid less than half the salary.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#411 » by gambitx777 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:28 pm

If we trade Beal. It's absiy not for Simmons. That's a slap in the face of every single player who values loyalty. That's how Ted thinks. Yes will not allowed a Beal for Simmons swap. Unless Beal specifically and openly says Philly or I walk.

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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#412 » by payitforward » Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:00 am

DCZards wrote:
pcbothwel wrote:I disagree. Neto has proven to be the better scorer from 3 and at the rim and the better passer/AST:TOV ratio. They are both equal in terms of garnering STOCKS and rebounds, so you are preferring the less productive player at more than twice the price due to Holiday being "pesky" or "hard-nosed". Pass.
Holiday has been terrible this year as a scorer, which is in line with this career to date.
Neto has been almost as bad, but he is shooting 14 points below his career avg from 3 (24% vs 38%).

Neto shot 57/39/88 last year (58% TS), something that Holiday has never come close to sniffing.

On their careers, Holiday's offensive #s and Raul #s are pretty similar. Both have shot around 37% from 3 and 80% from the line. Raul has the edge when it comes to 2pt shooting.

Neither Raul or Aaron are making a ton of money (by NBA standards) so that's not a biggie, imo.

Raul's 3pt shooting and FT shooting have fallen off considerably this season. Holiday is outperforming him in both areas. Of course, there's plenty of time this season for Neto's shooting to improve.

Holiday is a much better (and bigger and stronger) defender and he's 24 years old in his fourth season, compared to Neto who is 29 years old in his 7th season.

Again, if I had to choose between the two, I prefer Holiday.

How does the saying go? "You pays your money & you takes your choice...." :)

That said, these guys are not similar at all -- not even a little bit. Raul Neto is a proven commodity who is having, so far, an off year. Aaron Holiday has never had a single year comparable to Neto's average.

Holiday is also 25 not 24 (still a lot younger than Neto, however!), & he's listed at 6'0" to Neto's 6'1" & at about the same weight.

The reason to keep Neto over Holiday would be that it's conceivable he could return to the productivity level of last year, in which case no one would keep Holiday over him. The reason to keep Holiday over Neto would be that he's younger.

I might keep Cassius Winston over either of them, to tell the truth.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#413 » by DCZards » Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:23 am

payitforward wrote:
DCZards wrote:
pcbothwel wrote:I disagree. Neto has proven to be the better scorer from 3 and at the rim and the better passer/AST:TOV ratio. They are both equal in terms of garnering STOCKS and rebounds, so you are preferring the less productive player at more than twice the price due to Holiday being "pesky" or "hard-nosed". Pass.
Holiday has been terrible this year as a scorer, which is in line with this career to date.
Neto has been almost as bad, but he is shooting 14 points below his career avg from 3 (24% vs 38%).

Neto shot 57/39/88 last year (58% TS), something that Holiday has never come close to sniffing.

On their careers, Holiday's offensive #s and Raul #s are pretty similar. Both have shot around 37% from 3 and 80% from the line. Raul has the edge when it comes to 2pt shooting.

Neither Raul or Aaron are making a ton of money (by NBA standards) so that's not a biggie, imo.

Raul's 3pt shooting and FT shooting have fallen off considerably this season. Holiday is outperforming him in both areas. Of course, there's plenty of time this season for Neto's shooting to improve.

Holiday is a much better (and bigger and stronger) defender and he's 24 years old in his fourth season, compared to Neto who is 29 years old in his 7th season.

Again, if I had to choose between the two, I prefer Holiday.

How does the saying go? "You pays your money & you takes your choice...." :)

That said, these guys are not similar at all -- not even a little bit. Raul Neto is a proven commodity who is having, so far, an off year. Aaron Holiday has never had a single year comparable to Neto's average.

Holiday is also 25 not 24 (still a lot younger than Neto, however!), & he's listed at 6'0" to Neto's 6'1" & at about the same weight.

The reason to keep Neto over Holiday would be that it's conceivable he could return to the productivity level of last year, in which case no one would keep Holiday over him. The reason to keep Holiday over Neto would be that he's younger.

I might keep Cassius Winston over either of them, to tell the truth.

I want to see me some Cassius. He's been in uniform the last few games (he wasn't earlier in the season). The Zards need a playmaking, pass first PG in the worst way. Beal & Spencer are both really SGs and that ain't getting it done.

Why not give Winston a look. He already looks to be a decent 3pt shooter. Cassius was a career 43% 3pt shooter in college. (Kispert shot 40% on a similar # of attempts.) Cassius averaged over 6 assists in college.

Neto might be taller and about the same weight as Holiday, but Aaron is physically bigger, thicker and, and, almost certainly,, stronger. Holiday is also a better defender...which counts for something given that neither is really known for their offense or passing.

But I like Neto, a lot. Let's hope he returns to last season's form.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#414 » by payitforward » Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:47 am

I can't find the "what are you watching" thread; somebody feel free to move this.

I cannot recommend highly enough the one hour movie, 100 years from Mississippi, which you can see at https://www.abff.com/miami/2021-screenings/documentary-features/

free through 11/28. It's absolutely wonderful, exceptional. Mamie Kirkland, who lived to be 110, is an extraordinary human being, & this is an extraordinary story. Don't miss this film.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#415 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:38 pm

payitforward wrote:Wait... I just noticed that OKC has 2 traded player exceptions, amounting to almost $22.4m, that expire right around the trade deadline in February.

Does this help? Or motivate them in any way?
Give me Aaron Wiggins for what. BEAL is doing so far
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#416 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:39 pm

mhd wrote:
nate33 wrote:
mhd wrote:
The Kemba trade is a good barometer of the asking price for dumping a long-term deal. Kemba had 2 years 73 million left. After this year, Bertans has 3 years, 49 million left. If we want to dump Bertans, it'll cost our 2022 1st rounder (deal would have to be done on draft day to avoid the Sepian rule).

You have to factor the actual value of the player too.

Kemba was such a negative value because he was making $36M a year and was honestly only worth maybe $6M a year as a player. He's basically backup PG at this point. So he represents roughly $30M in wasted money per year, or $60M total.

Bertans is being paid $16M a year and is probably worth about $10M a year as a legit floor stretcher at the PF position who always has incredible on/off numbers. So he's about $6M a year of wasted money a year, or $18M total.



I wonder if we could get a team to just trade for him while we don't have to give up additional assets? His floor spacing could surely help teams. Heck, even if he's missing, he does open up lanes for our offense.


I think WUJ should do the counterintuitive.

Move DAVIS into the starting lineup.

Move KCP to the bench.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#417 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:40 pm

J-Ves wrote:
mhd wrote:If trading Bertans has to be done, then OKC is obviously the landing place. It will stink, but if we drop protections on our 1st rounder that they have the rights to (from the Wall trade), then a simple Bertans for Favors swap works.

What about this deal:
Wiz trade Bryant+Bertans+dropping our protections to the 2023 1st (make it top 1 protected) for Favors+OKC's 2022 2nd rounder?

With the way Trez is playing, Bryant isn't going to get PT when he comes back (which he'd want since he's a pending FA). Favors is a vet center who can be an emergency banger against the Jokic/Embiid types. Bertans gives us spacing (even if he's been shooting poorly in a small sample size), and he'd actually help OKC LOL.


Nope. To dump Bertans it will take dropping the protections on the 2023 first rounder and a future first or equivalent asset. You don’t get to dump two terrible contracts with one asset.
Move Davis into the starting lineup he's going to get hot and then trade him
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#418 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:41 pm

gambitx777 wrote:
payitforward wrote:Wait... I just noticed that OKC has 2 traded player exceptions, amounting to almost $22.4m, that expire right around the trade deadline in February.

Does this help? Or motivate them in any way?
Them being 34.2 mill under the cap, not the tax the cap . They have room to take on multiple contracts for assets. So yes, it does infact help because they don't have to pick and choose their spots when it comes to waiting for the best deal, they can do it multiple times.

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SGA is a dynamic talent wasting away in OKC.

We need to make sure at least try to acquire a young talent in exchange for Bradley Beal even if it means the Wizards add a pick.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#419 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:42 pm

nate33 wrote:A San Antonio poster on the Trade Board is shopping for a PF.

I really think it would make a ton of sense to trade Rui for one of Devin Vassell or Keldon Johnson. I prefer Vassell because he is younger and has an extra year on his rookie deal.

It would really round out the team nicely with a quality veteran at every position and a developing young understudy alongside him:

PG Dinwiddie - Holiday
SG Beal - Kispert
SF KCP - Vassell
PF Kuzma - Avdija
C Harrell - Gafford/Bryant
Yes
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLII 

Post#420 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:42 pm

payitforward wrote:Maybe, just maybe, there could have been a trade of Rui for Keldon Johnson straight up at the end of last year, when Rui had a few good games -- though I wouldn't be sure of it -- but I can't imagine SA would give Johnson for him now. Vassell would be even less likely.
Trade Bradley to the Spurs
After the Wizards GM really went and did it by having an imaginative, strong, draft day. I totally feel this as well;

AFM wrote:Don't sleep on these white bois. That's all I'm saying.

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