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Is there still room for Rui on this team?

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Is there still room for Rui on this team? 

Post#1 » by Coach76 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:32 am

When he returns, where do you play him? You can't give him Deni's minutes. Do you take minutes from Kispert and potentially stunt his development?
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Re: Is there still room for Rui on this team? 

Post#2 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:22 am

Coach76 wrote:When he returns, where do you play him? You can't give him Deni's minutes. Do you take minutes from Kispert and potentially stunt his development?



Rui definitely fits in, IMO Bertans is odd man out.
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Re: Is there still room for Rui on this team? 

Post#3 » by FAH1223 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:24 am

Yes. Rui can create his own shot. And on ball he solid defensively.
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Re: Is there still room for Rui on this team? 

Post#4 » by smoothSeph » Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:48 am

Yes. When he’s up to speed you start him at the 3 or 4. Let’s not over think this.
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Re: Is there still room for Rui on this team? 

Post#5 » by long suffrin' boulez fan » Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:58 am

smoothSeph wrote:Yes. When he’s up to speed you start him at the 3 or 4. Let’s not over think this.


Absolutely. Our second unit struggles to score at times. Of course, he could end up dragging defenders into Trez’s space.

Gotta figure how to incorporate him and Bryant and push down Neto’s and Holiday’s minutes.

Maybe Rui and Kuz start with KCP stepping in as back up 2
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Re: Is there still room for Rui on this team? 

Post#6 » by smoothSeph » Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:04 am

long suffrin' boulez fan wrote:
smoothSeph wrote:Yes. When he’s up to speed you start him at the 3 or 4. Let’s not over think this.


Absolutely. Our second unit struggles to score at times. Of course, he could end up dragging defenders into Trez’s space.

Gotta figure how to incorporate him and Bryant and push down Neto’s and Holiday’s minutes.

Maybe Rui and Kuz start with KCP stepping in as back up 2

I’d be curious to see how Kuzma does in a 6th/7th man role vs lesser competition.

But if I’m Tommy I’m picking up the phone and seeing how to get a back up PG for Bertans. Holiday/Neto are looking like a ticking time bomb.
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Re: Is there still room for Rui on this team? 

Post#7 » by Kanyewest » Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:09 am

48 minutes combined between Neto, Holiday, and Kispert.
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Re: Is there still room for Rui on this team? 

Post#8 » by prime1time » Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:58 am

We're not a championship contender without him so the notion that there is no space for him is quite laughable...
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Re: Is there still room for Rui on this team? 

Post#9 » by gambitx777 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:25 am

Rui definitely starts over KCP with in weeks of him coming back .

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Re: Is there still room for Rui on this team? 

Post#10 » by Frichuela » Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:25 pm

gambitx777 wrote:Rui definitely starts over KCP with in weeks of him coming back .

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This. If I was Wes, once (and assuming/hoping) Rui is fully back to his old self, I’ll do:

Dinwiddie (30)/Back up guard (14)/Deni (4)
Beal (34)/KCP (14)
Rui (28)/KCP (10)/Kispert (10)
Kuzma (28)/Deni (20)
Gafford (22)/Trez (26)

I’ll try to trade Bertans for back up guard help.

If we get lucky: Bertans+Neto (or Holiday) for Sato + Temple.

And I’ll experiment with Deni for a few minutes per game as point forward, making sure there is another decent ball handler with him on court (eg Beal).
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Re: Is there still room for Rui on this team? 

Post#11 » by daSwami » Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:16 pm

I'd really like to see how Rui plays under Wes Jr. before thinking about moving him. Deni has flourished under WJr., especially defensively. Rui somehow became a good defender, despite Scott Brooks. Let's see if he takes another step up with new (better) coaching.
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Re: Is there still room for Rui on this team? 

Post#12 » by doclinkin » Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:18 pm

FAH1223 wrote:Yes. Rui can create his own shot. And on ball he solid defensively.


No he cannot.

And on defense off ball he is uninvolved and does not know how to play team ball or rebound or box out.

It is unfortunate he missed training camp since he needs fundamentals most of all. He has tremendous physical talent but as a professional he is still learning the game of basketball.

To the first point:

Take a walk through any of the metrics of the basic offensive plays that the NBA has stats for and Rui comes up short.

Isolation. 14th percentile.

spot up. 26th percentile.

post up. 43rd percentile

hand off. zeroth percentile. there is no data (*) of him attempting to score off this play type last year. (* fewer than 10 attempts last year),

off ball cut. 39th percentile.

off screen. zeroth percentile. there is no data of him attempting to score off this play type last year.

pick and roll man. 36th percentile.

pick and roll ball handler. zeroth percentile. no data that he has tried this either.

offensive putbacks. 20th percentile.

Here is where he was good:

transition bucket. 86th percentile.

miscellaneous. 60th percentile. with a frequency of half a possession per game.

And in the playoffs he hit his catch and shoot threes.

Maybe miscellaneous is what we are talking about making his own offense? Scoring off mid range fade-aways where he dribbled into the defense then pulled up.

If by 'makes his own offense' we mean 'does not run plays in a team offense'' then alright.

His talent is undeniable. Size, ability in isolation defense to stifle big scorers (above 6'6"). The scorching hot 3-pt shooting of the playoffs. If he maintans a high percentage there then he is useful and playable. But. His understanding of the team game is lacking. Really of all the players on the team he was the one who most needed that early pre-season work in the gym with Wes. Drilling fundamentals, learning how to fit next to the other players.

For now, joining mid-season, getting his focus right, as a late addition to a team that has developed solid chemistry etc. I wouldn't put too much pressure on the idea that he will eat up many minutes. If you can play a box and one with him matched against a heavy usage Big, then his defense can be key at times. Expecting him to start at some point in the season seems unlikely or even an unfair expectation. He needs to learn to box out, set screens, set picks, make cuts, dive for putbacks, learn low post footwork, cut off angles, not ball watch on defense --pick any two-three of these -- before he can play in a team scheme. The skills he does have on offense he will need to do more efficiently.

Wes is a solid solid coach for player development. Good character low-pressure but intense teacher who will help Rui build skill and confidence. There's a learning curve though before the team has rehabilitated his value, in both on court minutes and as a possible trade piece.
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Re: Is there still room for Rui on this team? 

Post#13 » by CobraCommander » Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:09 pm

prime1time wrote:We're not a championship contender without him so the notion that there is no space for him is quite laughable...

Quite laughable indeed! Can I interest you in a guy giving you 13 and 8 on their rookie deal with a deadly mid range jumper and huge hands that can dunk in transition with one hand- EITHER hand -

Yeah if Rui wants to play, we want him
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Re: Is there still room for Rui on this team? 

Post#14 » by CobraCommander » Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:13 pm

doclinkin wrote:
FAH1223 wrote:Yes. Rui can create his own shot. And on ball he solid defensively.


No he cannot.

And on defense off ball he is uninvolved and does not know how to play team ball or rebound or box out.

It is unfortunate he missed training camp since he needs fundamentals most of all. He has tremendous physical talent but as a professional he is still learning the game of basketball.

To the first point:

Take a walk through any of the metrics of the basic offensive plays that the NBA has stats for and Rui comes up short.

Isolation. 14th percentile.

spot up. 26th percentile.

post up. 43rd percentile

hand off. zeroth percentile. there is no data (*) of him attempting to score off this play type last year. (* fewer than 10 attempts last year),

off ball cut. 39th percentile.

off screen. zeroth percentile. there is no data of him attempting to score off this play type last year.

pick and roll man. 36th percentile.

pick and roll ball handler. zeroth percentile. no data that he has tried this either.

offensive putbacks. 20th percentile.

Here is where he was good:

transition bucket. 86th percentile.

miscellaneous. 60th percentile. with a frequency of half a possession per game.

And in the playoffs he hit his catch and shoot threes.

Maybe miscellaneous is what we are talking about making his own offense? Scoring off mid range fade-aways where he dribbled into the defense then pulled up.

If by 'makes his own offense' we mean 'does not run plays in a team offense'' then alright.

His talent is undeniable. Size, ability in isolation defense to stifle big scorers (above 6'6"). The scorching hot 3-pt shooting of the playoffs. If he maintans a high percentage there then he is useful and playable. But. His understanding of the team game is lacking. Really of all the players on the team he was the one who most needed that early pre-season work in the gym with Wes. Drilling fundamentals, learning how to fit next to the other players.

For now, joining mid-season, getting his focus right, as a late addition to a team that has developed solid chemistry etc. I wouldn't put too much pressure on the idea that he will eat up many minutes. If you can play a box and one with him matched against a heavy usage Big, then his defense can be key at times. Expecting him to start at some point in the season seems unlikely or even an unfair expectation. He needs to learn to box out, set screens, set picks, make cuts, dive for putbacks, learn low post footwork, cut off angles, not ball watch on defense --pick any two-three of these -- before he can play in a team scheme. The skills he does have on offense he will need to do more efficiently.

Wes is a solid solid coach for player development. Good character low-pressure but intense teacher who will help Rui build skill and confidence. There's a learning curve though before the team has rehabilitated his value, in both on court minutes and as a possible trade piece.

Let’s say I agree with your points, the team has guys taking days off randomly, so I would expect Rui to get some starts simply because of that. If Rui is smart, and by all accounts he is, he is watching the team play, talking to coaches and should have a grasp on the way to do things properly well before he hits the floor.
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Re: Is there still room for Rui on this team? 

Post#15 » by nate33 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:24 pm

Last year, I thought Hachimura was critically important because he was the only guy with the size and strength to contend with bigger forwards (guys like Randall, Zion, Collins and Giannis) and he did so very well. He has never been all that essential to our offense.

With the unexpected emergence of Avdija as a first rate defensive stopper, I'm not seeing nearly as much value to playing Hachimura. He is going to have to improve offensively to earn minutes on this team - which mostly means he is going to have to start taking 3's without hesitation and making them. If he can't do that at least as well as Kuzma, then what is he bringing?

I don't agree that he can just take KCP's minutes. KCP is better than Rui at guarding smaller wings, and he is definitely a better 3-point shooter. KCP fills a role on this team that isn't really filled by anyone else.

The way I see it, our rotation only has room for two among Avdija, Kuzma and Hachimura, and two among KCP, Bertans and Kispert. The third guy in each of those groups won't get minutes if everyone is healthy. Obviously, it's pretty rare for everyone to be healthy so it's not THAT much of a problem.
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Re: Is there still room for Rui on this team? 

Post#16 » by NatP4 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:46 pm

Yep. Hachimura brought one skill that was unique to everyone else on the roster, and that is the ability to guard the superstar ball handling wings 1 on 1. Avdija wasn’t strong enough last year. This year he has turned into a total wing stopper. Rui no longer has a fit.

I would still rather give him opportunities to Rui over Kuzma, who is nothing more than a journeyman. There’s still potential there.

I always predicted this from the start: we will be at our best with Avdija playing the 4 position.

We want Kispert to turn into a quality rotation piece that can be the primary backup wing by playoff time. Avdija will be starting at the 3 or 4.

We wanna be here by playoff time:

Dinwiddie Neto
Beal
KCP Kispert
Avdija (maybe Bertans)
Gafford Harrell
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Re: Is there still room for Rui on this team? 

Post#17 » by DCZards » Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:11 pm

Frichuela wrote:
gambitx777 wrote:Rui definitely starts over KCP with in weeks of him coming back .

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This. If I was Wes, once (and assuming/hoping) Rui is fully back to his old self, I’ll do:

Dinwiddie (30)/Back up guard (14)/Deni (4)
Beal (34)/KCP (14)
Rui (28)/KCP (10)/Kispert (10)
Kuzma (28)/Deni (20)
Gafford (22)/Trez (26)

I’ll try to trade Bertans for back up guard help.

If we get lucky: Bertans+Neto (or Holiday) for Sato + Temple.

And I’ll experiment with Deni for a few minutes per game as point forward, making sure there is another decent ball handler with him on court (eg Beal).

I want to see how Rui plays under Wes Jr. before even thinking about where and when he fits in. He and Deni give us two excellent man-to-man defenders...with Deni having better playmaking skills and Rui being the better scorer.

14 mins for KCP? You seriously underestimate KCP's contributions to the Zards. He's a great defender and maybe the Zards most clutch 3 pt shooter...something he also proved to be during the Lakers championship run in 2020.

KCP is an on court leader. I can't tell you how many times I've seen him (calmly) talking to refs during time outs on behalf of himself and/or teammates when the Zards weren't getting the calls they should be getting.

KCP is this team's glue guy. He should be playing at least 28 mins and will almost certainly be on the court at the end of close games.
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Re: Is there still room for Rui on this team? 

Post#18 » by nate33 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:47 pm

DCZards wrote:
Frichuela wrote:
gambitx777 wrote:Rui definitely starts over KCP with in weeks of him coming back .

Sent from my SM-G991U1 using RealGM mobile app


This. If I was Wes, once (and assuming/hoping) Rui is fully back to his old self, I’ll do:

Dinwiddie (30)/Back up guard (14)/Deni (4)
Beal (34)/KCP (14)
Rui (28)/KCP (10)/Kispert (10)
Kuzma (28)/Deni (20)
Gafford (22)/Trez (26)

I’ll try to trade Bertans for back up guard help.

If we get lucky: Bertans+Neto (or Holiday) for Sato + Temple.

And I’ll experiment with Deni for a few minutes per game as point forward, making sure there is another decent ball handler with him on court (eg Beal).

I want to see how Rui plays under Wes Jr. before even thinking about where and when he fits in. He and Deni give us two excellent man-to-man defenders...with Deni having better playmaking skills and Rui being the better scorer.

14 mins for KCP? You seriously underestimate KCP's contributions to the Zards. He's a great defender and maybe the Zards most clutch 3 pt shooter...something he also proved to be during the Lakers championship run in 2020.

KCP is an on court leader. I can't tell you how many times I've seen him (calmly) talking to refs during time outs on behalf of himself and/or teammates when the Zards weren't getting the calls they should be getting.

KCP is this team's glue guy. He should be playing at least 28 mins and will almost certainly be on the court at the end of close games.

He has KCP with 24 minutes, not 14.

That said, the lineup is far too light on ball handling/shot creation. It's unrealistic to expect Deni to play PG, and it's a little iffy to play KCP at SG when he's not much of a ball handler either.

It's just not that easy to take away so many Neto/Holiday minutes.

Also, Bertans is going to get at least 18-20 minutes. He'll take them from Kispert and some other forwards.
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Re: Is there still room for Rui on this team? 

Post#19 » by smoothSeph » Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:52 pm

From the top of the organization down to the players there are countless quotes of how irreplaceable and important Rui is to our team success. I don't think I've ever seen such a disparity of a teams view of a player vs the fanbases. It's quite interesting.

If you asked Beal this he'd probably hit you with a, "next question." :lol:
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Re: Is there still room for Rui on this team? 

Post#20 » by nate33 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:29 pm

smoothSeph wrote:From the top of the organization down to the players there are countless quotes of how irreplaceable and important Rui is to our team success. I don't think I've ever seen such a disparity of a teams view of a player vs the fanbases. It's quite interesting.

If you asked Beal this he'd probably hit you with a, "next question." :lol:

He WAS irreplaceable last year. But with improvement from Deni and the addition of Kuzma, he went from being the best PF on the roster to arguably the 3rd best. Now, if he has improved in the offseason, or if he can manage to play like "playoff Rui" permanently, then that's a different story.

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