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TGW wrote:The Wizards are also a developmental team for other teams. Although that won’t be a problem for Sheppard because he picks scrubs.

Yeah, I wouldn't characterize the Wizards as a developmental team. I can't think of very many instances in recent history where a Wizard left DC to excel elsewhere.

Yeah, 20+ years ago there was Rip Hamilton, Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace and Chris Webber, but there haven't been many examples in the past decade or two. Guys that didn't pan out here didn't really pan out anywhere. Guys like Jared Jeffries, Jarvis Hayes, Nick Young, Javale McGee, Chris Singleton, Troy Brown and Otto Porter weren't any better on their new team than they were here. It's looking like Thomas Bryant and Rui Hachimura will continue the trend.

The only exception I can think of in the past 20 years or so is Steve Blake. And Blake bounced around for several years before finally putting it together.

payitforward wrote:

AFM wrote:

payitforward wrote:Forgive me, but even that question is irrelevant.

Ted comes to games; I'm sure he'd like to see us win rather than lose. He can be a fan.

But, he doesn't bring "being a basketball fan" into business meetings to have an effect on business decisions any more than you bring being a Wizards fan into your business meetings to allow it to affect business decisions.

This is not wrong or evil on his part. It's normal & correct.

All business decisions must either stimulate growth (without negatively affecting profit potential) or increase profit (without negatively affecting the potential to grow).

Everything else is just internal process stuff -- important in making it easier to run the joint & do product management but not key in the sense that growth & profit are key.

Who the Wiz FO is, what kinds of decisions they make, who they draft & trade, how they pay players (within the known parameters of cap & tax)... all that stuff is in the 3d category.

It'll stay there until it becomes a drag either on growth or profit.

If the Celtics have 3 bad seasons in a row, their fan-base starts to get mad. Management begins to worry. It's not like that here....

I don't think its irrelevant at all. And I don't need a less on capitalism either. Buying an NBA team, for most owners at least, means much more to them than just a financial investment. There are other ways to invest your money if you are a billionaire. Owners like Balmer and Cuban come to mind.

Sorry that I came off that way... not my intention at all. Probably just expressing my frustration at Leonsis, whom I view as a guy who got lucky running into Steve Case (who actually founded AOL). Nothing like Marc Cuban, IOW.

No worries--I think I probably expressed myself poorly. The point I was trying to make is, yes of course businesses try to maximize profits, usually. But owning a basketball team (for MOST owners) is a little different. It's their team, its a dream for most owners, and it's personal. They want to win, even if that means reduced short term profits (hence the willingness to pay the luxury tax). I'm just speculating but if Cuban could choose between 50M profit and the 9th seed vs 30M profit and a championship I would bet he would choose the latter. Maybe I'm being naive.
My point is to see Ted treat the Wizards like any old business is disheartening. If he only wants to do the bare minimum and sit back and receive a check from the NBA every year, then I wish he would have bought a bunch of gas stations instead.

This is where my point comes in -- i.e. that Leonsis doesn't "own the Wizards" but instead is the founder of & largest shareholder in a conglomerate sports, sports media, & gambling) venture.

When Cuban bought the Mavs, he immediately added a desk for himself right in the middle of the sales floor. He started cold-calling right along with all the rest of the salesmen. & what he told people he talked to was that he was going to turn the team around, he was going to make them a good team, one of the better (&, in time, one of the best) teams in the league. & that's exactly what he did.

Ted did something different. He brought together the Wizards, the Capitols, the arena, etc. as one business & went out & sought investors. He's got 20 partners with ownership in the conglomerate he's constructed, which owns & operates 6 professional sports teams & 5 venues, plus the company has 3 other ventures underway. The company employs something over 600 people.

Monumental is heavily into esports & gambling. Innovative & making big bets in that area (including some pretty innovative stuff!). Like him or not, he's an active entrepreneur focused on something way beyond team ownership (although owning the teams is necessary to what he's building).

I'm not trying to make a big deal out of this, but honestly I can't see a way any real concern about the Wizards themselves, being a contender, can be big in his mind. For sure, it's big in the mind of the Wizards FO (as is to be expected in any NBA FO). Sadly, however, they just aren't good at it.

YMMV. No need to debate this.

Don’t see how any of that contradicts what I’m saying. If they want to get into esports and gambling, how does letting this team fade further into irrelevance help with that?
If anything, the way they run this team is shareholder negligence

Fair enough, & I agree -- that's a perfect term for it. Not to mention utter lack of respect for the fans.

Of course... there's always sheer incompetence as a reason that trumps all others!

It was interesting that in the Spring of '19, Ted basically couldn't get any of his high-profile candidates to take the job, which is why he turned to Tommy. Tells you something about how the gig is viewed.

Tim Connelly, to whom he offered the job, declined -- despite a long-term association with the team & the area earlier in his life/career. Then a couple of years later, he took the same job for the T'wolves.

payitforward wrote:Fair enough, & I agree -- that's a perfect term for it. Not to mention utter lack of respect for the fans.

Of course... there's always sheer incompetence as a reason that trumps all others!

It was interesting that in the Spring of '19, Ted basically couldn't get any of his high-profile candidates to take the job, which is why he turned to Tommy. Tells you something about how the gig is viewed.

Tim Connelly, to whom he offered the job, declined -- despite a long-term association with the team & the area earlier in his life/career. Then a couple of years later, he took the same job for the T'wolves.

This. Depressing as a fan but very true..

payitforward wrote:Fair enough, & I agree -- that's a perfect term for it. Not to mention utter lack of respect for the fans.

Of course... there's always sheer incompetence as a reason that trumps all others!

It was interesting that in the Spring of '19, Ted basically couldn't get any of his high-profile candidates to take the job, which is why he turned to Tommy. Tells you something about how the gig is viewed.

Tim Connelly, to whom he offered the job, declined -- despite a long-term association with the team & the area earlier in his life/career. Then a couple of years later, he took the same job for the T'wolves.

They did give Connelly $40 million and ownership equity. Also, the Wizards may have dodged a bullet considering the Gobert trade.

Kanyewest wrote:

payitforward wrote:Fair enough, & I agree -- that's a perfect term for it. Not to mention utter lack of respect for the fans.

Of course... there's always sheer incompetence as a reason that trumps all others!

It was interesting that in the Spring of '19, Ted basically couldn't get any of his high-profile candidates to take the job, which is why he turned to Tommy. Tells you something about how the gig is viewed.

Tim Connelly, to whom he offered the job, declined -- despite a long-term association with the team & the area earlier in his life/career. Then a couple of years later, he took the same job for the T'wolves.

They did give Connelly $40 million and ownership equity. Also, the Wizards may have dodged a bullet considering the Gobert trade.

Yeah Tim might very well find him self working with Bobby marks and playing rock paper scissors in the ESPN break room over who was part of the more disastrous trade.

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iirc, there have been instances in which Ted has interjected himself into personnel matters that were probably best left to the Front Office (e.g., vetoing the Beal/Chris Singleton for James Harden trade b/c he didn't want to part with Chris freaking Singleton.) Maybe he's more of a macro-managing, spread-sheet glancer now, but I don't think that's his MO, generally.

Ghost of Ernie

closg00 wrote:Ghost of Ernie

He's not the ghost of Ernie, not at all.

Ernie traded away draft picks & signed short-term, end-of-career veterans. He also never took a long-term point of view.

Tommy's never traded away a draft pick (the one exception being the Wall<>Westbrook trade -- & it's looking like we won't actually have to deliver that pick). Tommy also managed to unload John Wall's "untradable" contract.

OTOH, there's more than one way to be an ineffective GM, alas. & Tommy has been ineffective. 38 wins in '18-19 got Ernie fired. In 4 years, Tommy's new regime has gotten us nowhere. We are unlikely to make it to 38 wins.

We are, nonetheless, a better-positioned team than Ernie's last squad.
Here are a bunch of guys who played minutes for the '18-19 Wizards: John Jenkins, Devin Robinson, Sam Dekker, Chasson Randle, Austin Rivers, Ron Baker, Wes Johnson, & Okaro White.

To those 8, one can add Jabari Parker, Jeff Green, Trevor Ariza, Ian Mahinmi, Dwight Howard, Markieff Morris, Jason Smith & Bobby Portis, none of whom was both affordable & wise to bring back.

That left:
Satoransky -- who was expiring & whom Tommy managed to trade for two high R2 picks -- an excellent deal, IMO.
Troy Brown -- whom Tommy traded for Gafford (obviously an excellent deal).
John Wall -- injured & could not play while carrying an "untradable" contract.
Thomas Bryant -- whom Tommy signed to a high-value 3-year deal. Unfortunately we only got 1 of those seasons from him before injury derailed him.
Bradley Beal -- there was obviously NO WAY the team was going to trade Brad in the 2018-19 off-season.

It's easy to forget what a mess Ernie left: when Tommy took the job, he had as close to absolutely nothing to work with as can be imagined.

1. Next to no one who could even take the court (Beal, Brown, Bryant, Mahinmi & McRae -- that's it!)
2. Next to no one who could be traded (Sato brought a couple of future R2 picks; Howard brought the corpse of CJ Miles)

He filled out the roster by sleight of hand; did an incredible job to tell the truth!

If Tommy had managed the 2019 & 2020 drafts well, we'd be singing his praises in chorus!

But... he didn't. Then he didn't manage the '21 draft any better. & screwed up the '22 draft.

payitforward wrote:

closg00 wrote:Ghost of Ernie

He's not the ghost of Ernie, not at all.

Ernie traded away draft picks & signed short-term, end-of-career veterans. He also never took a long-term point of view.

Tommy's never traded away a draft pick (the one exception being the Wall<>Westbrook trade -- & it's looking like we won't actually have to deliver that pick). Tommy also managed to unload John Wall's "untradable" contract.

OTOH, there's more than one way to be an ineffective GM, alas. & Tommy has been ineffective. 38 wins in '18-19 got Ernie fired. In 4 years, Tommy's new regime has gotten us nowhere. We are unlikely to make it to 38 wins.

We are, nonetheless, a better-positioned team than Ernie's last squad.
Here are a bunch of guys who played minutes for the '18-19 Wizards: John Jenkins, Devin Robinson, Sam Dekker, Chasson Randle, Austin Rivers, Ron Baker, Wes Johnson, & Okaro White.

To those 8, one can add Jabari Parker, Jeff Green, Trevor Ariza, Ian Mahinmi, Dwight Howard, Markieff Morris, Jason Smith & Bobby Portis, none of whom was both affordable & wise to bring back.

That left:
Satoransky -- who was expiring & whom Tommy managed to trade for two high R2 picks -- an excellent deal, IMO.
Troy Brown -- whom Tommy traded for Gafford (obviously an excellent deal).
John Wall -- injured & could not play while carrying an "untradable" contract.
Thomas Bryant -- whom Tommy signed to a high-value 3-year deal. Unfortunately we only got 1 of those seasons from him before injury derailed him.
Bradley Beal -- there was obviously NO WAY the team was going to trade Brad in the 2018-19 off-season.

It's easy to forget what a mess Ernie left: when Tommy took the job, he had as close to absolutely nothing to work with as can be imagined.

1. Next to no one who could even take the court (Beal, Brown, Bryant, Mahinmi & McRae -- that's it!)
2. Next to no one who could be traded (Sato brought a couple of future R2 picks; Howard brought the corpse of CJ Miles)

He filled out the roster by sleight of hand; did an incredible job to tell the truth!

If Tommy had managed the 2019 & 2020 drafts well, we'd be singing his praises in chorus!

But... he didn't. Then he didn't manage the '21 draft any better. & screwed up the '22 draft.

Drafting is a big part of gm. It’s like saying we have a good quarterback except the throwing part

Personally I think Tommy would be a great team president with a really good talent evaluation guy in the GM spot.

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gambitx777 wrote:Personally I think Tommy would be a great team president with a really good talent evaluation guy in the GM spot.

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Why? I honestly don't get your love for this man. He has done nothing to make this team better. As a matter of fact, he should be fired now. Out of the building. He represents mediocrity, a losing culture, bad draft picks, and an overall malaise within in the rganization.

I don't get why people are so hard-pressed to defend this man. He sucks balls at his job.

TGW wrote:

gambitx777 wrote:Personally I think Tommy would be a great team president with a really good talent evaluation guy in the GM spot.

...I honestly don't get your love for this man....

Independent of everything else, I'd say this is a fair & interesting question. Not just of gamby; e.g. I keep rooting for Tommy, wanting him to succeed (i.e. "him" -- the team too, but it's 2 different things). Why...?

Partly I think it's rooting for the underdog, the "common man." None of the big shots around the league would take the job. No one even wanted to come in for an interview! It would have been great for Tommy to have made them look stupid!

Partly, also, the fact that he just went ahead & changed the team utterly, made some pretty impressive moves (Bertans for a tpe, etc.) -- suddenly everything seemed different.

As well, his ability to make *big* trades is undeniable. Ridding us of Wall's drag sail contract, turning Russ into a bunch of assets, acquiring KP: those were some eye-catching moves!

TGW wrote:...He has done nothing to make this team better....

Well, we're not better. That's certainly true.

TGW wrote:...he should be fired now. Out of the building. He represents mediocrity, a losing culture, bad draft picks, and an overall malaise within in the organization....

You don't "fire" GMs. You replace them. Who do you have in mind to step into the job?

There's the problem. & we can give it a name: Ted Leonsis.

payitforward wrote:

closg00 wrote:Ghost of Ernie

He's not the ghost of Ernie, not at all.

Ernie traded away draft picks & signed short-term, end-of-career veterans. He also never took a long-term point of view.

Tommy's never traded away a draft pick (the one exception being the Wall<>Westbrook trade -- & it's looking like we won't actually have to deliver that pick). Tommy also managed to unload John Wall's "untradable" contract.

OTOH, there's more than one way to be an ineffective GM, alas. & Tommy has been ineffective. 38 wins in '18-19 got Ernie fired. In 4 years, Tommy's new regime has gotten us nowhere. We are unlikely to make it to 38 wins.

We are, nonetheless, a better-positioned team than Ernie's last squad.
Here are a bunch of guys who played minutes for the '18-19 Wizards: John Jenkins, Devin Robinson, Sam Dekker, Chasson Randle, Austin Rivers, Ron Baker, Wes Johnson, & Okaro White.

To those 8, one can add Jabari Parker, Jeff Green, Trevor Ariza, Ian Mahinmi, Dwight Howard, Markieff Morris, Jason Smith & Bobby Portis, none of whom was both affordable & wise to bring back.

That left:
Satoransky -- who was expiring & whom Tommy managed to trade for two high R2 picks -- an excellent deal, IMO.
Troy Brown -- whom Tommy traded for Gafford (obviously an excellent deal).
John Wall -- injured & could not play while carrying an "untradable" contract.
Thomas Bryant -- whom Tommy signed to a high-value 3-year deal. Unfortunately we only got 1 of those seasons from him before injury derailed him.
Bradley Beal -- there was obviously NO WAY the team was going to trade Brad in the 2018-19 off-season.

It's easy to forget what a mess Ernie left: when Tommy took the job, he had as close to absolutely nothing to work with as can be imagined.

1. Next to no one who could even take the court (Beal, Brown, Bryant, Mahinmi & McRae -- that's it!)
2. Next to no one who could be traded (Sato brought a couple of future R2 picks; Howard brought the corpse of CJ Miles)

He filled out the roster by sleight of hand; did an incredible job to tell the truth!

If Tommy had managed the 2019 & 2020 drafts well, we'd be singing his praises in chorus!

But... he didn't. Then he didn't manage the '21 draft any better. & screwed up the '22 draft.

Your applying the definition of the word ghost too-literally to Ernie with-respect to Tommy.

TGW wrote:

gambitx777 wrote:Personally I think Tommy would be a great team president with a really good talent evaluation guy in the GM spot.

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Why? I honestly don't get your love for this man. He has done nothing to make this team better. As a matter of fact, he should be fired now. Out of the building. He represents mediocrity, a losing culture, bad draft picks, and an overall malaise within in the rganization.

I don't get why people are so hard-pressed to defend this man. He sucks balls at his job.

He has taken some rotten bear meat and turned it in tona pretty good stew a few times. I give him credit where credit is due.

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Hopefully these are the last few days of this terrible tenure. Get a new GM Turd. Grunfeld's flunkie isn't qualified.

TGW wrote:Hopefully these are the last few days of this terrible tenure. Get a new GM Turd. Grunfeld's flunkie isn't qualified.

100%. This sorry franchise needs a new approach. Turd should also sit with Beal and convince him to waive his NTC and be traded in the off-season. After all, this is Turd’s mess…

This team would be much more interesting to watch if they were a young and developing team with 4 or 5 fewer wins - like Orlando. I'd rather pay tickets to see that than to see a hopeless team that isn't good enough to win a playoff game now and doesn't project to be any better in the future.