Are the Wiz better without Caron?

Donkey McDonkerton · Post #1 » by **Donkey McDonkerton** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:30 am

LOL

Have we had one of these threads this year?

JWizmentality · Post #2 » by **JWizmentality** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:23 am

As of today..yes the Wiz are better without Caron. Undefeated as a matter of fact.

toughjuice03 · Post #3 » by **toughjuice03** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:30 am

truwizfan4evr · Post #4 » by **truwizfan4evr** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:35 am

wow we better without him lol we only play thunder lol

closg00 · Post #5 » by **closg00** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:26 pm

Hey! you gotta take the good with the bad. W/o Caron, the team assist numbers shot way up last night. Caron of-late has played waaay too-much iso school-yard ball, jacking shots early etc. I was good to see what happens to team chemistry with him out for one game.

tkunit · Post #6 » by **tkunit** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:31 pm

I would love to trade caron.

Donkey McDonkerton · Post #7 » by **Donkey McDonkerton** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:40 pm

on a serious note (not what this thread was intended for, but we can mix it up), Caron has been pissing me off lately with his play. We are no way better without him when we are running as a real team, but he has gotten so frustrated, he thinks he is gil and tries to take over.

[/serious]

If we can sit Caron for 5 games, maybe we can have a 5 game win streak. I wonder what we can get for Caron at the deadline?

daSwami · Post #8 » by **daSwami** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:22 pm

This thread should be locked lest we diminish Caron's trade value with all the negativity. Then again, he does suck at defense. here's who we need (for obvious reasons):

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_pmkzOQqFi-I/RmSh6 ... atch24.JPG

Donkey McDonkerton · Post #9 » by **Donkey McDonkerton** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:28 pm

daSwami wrote:This thread should be locked lest we diminish Caron's trade value with all the negativity. Then again, he does suck at defense. here's who we need (for obvious reasons):

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_pmkzOQqFi-I/RmSh6 ... atch24.JPG

link no workie for me

mohammed10 · Post #10 » by **mohammed10** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:42 pm

truwizfan4evr wrote:wow we better without him lol we only play thunder lol

Can we play OKC like another 15-20 more times this year?

SayHeyKid · Post #11 » by **SayHeyKid** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:01 pm

Keep it up and the BLAZERS WOULD GLADLY take him off your hands for Raef's expiring. lol

JWizmentality · Post #12 » by **JWizmentality** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:27 pm

daSwami wrote:This thread should be locked lest we diminish Caron's trade value with all the negativity. Then again, he does suck at defense. here's who we need (for obvious reasons):

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_pmkzOQqFi-I/RmSh6 ... atch24.JPG

WizDynasty wet dream? :roll:

Post #13 » by **LyricalRico** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:51 pm

First of all, it's easy to look better against OKC.

But I think the real reason is that guys play better when they know they will get a chance. Butler being out meant guys would get minutes and they would get shots without having to worry about getting the forwards off first. I think it's another example of what could be possible if this organization stopped destroying the confidence of the young players.

truwizfan4evr · Post #14 » by **truwizfan4evr** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:59 am

trade caron yall are sick lol wiz aint **** without butler

JWizmentality · Post #15 » by **JWizmentality** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:02 am

truwizfan4evr wrote:trade caron yall are sick lol wiz aint **** without butler

I take it you're one those few whom sarcasm is lost upon.

WizarDynasty · Post #16 » by **WizarDynasty** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:10 am

Look caron is on offensive specialist and below average man to man defender. If I could trade caron for a7'1 wingspan s/f who is both above average offensive and above average man to man defender i would. Right now, this team has three offensive specialist in the starting line up. Giving up an offensive specialist for a defensive specialist or better yet a s/f who is above average man ot man defender with an above average offensive game..i would trade caron in a heart beat. Caron is not a true allstar, a true allstar is dominant on both sides of the court. Caron almost never hold the guy he is guarding below is seasons scoring average. We have three starting offensive specialist that almost never hold the guy they are guarding below their season scoring average. Guess who they are? Our one dimensional allstars....all with bad knees. Caron is one of them. Having starters who dominant on both sides of the court is what you need to win championship...Caron is a role player just like gilbert--Haywood is not dominant enough on defensive to cover up 3 of the offensive specialist lack of man to man defensive talents especially when going up against playoff squads who normally have 2 or more players who are above average offensively and above average man to man defenders. Caron on a playoff team is a bench player just like he was with the lakers. Same with Jamison with he was on Dallas. Having offensive specialist as your starters will not take you far in the playoffs. You can do damage with them coming off the bench but having them play the majority of the minutes in a playoff game is recipe for failure for a season worth of work.

Post #17 » by **miller31time** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:08 am

WizarDynasty wrote:Caron is not a true allstar, a true allstar is dominant on both sides of the court. Caron almost never hold the guy he is guarding below is seasons scoring average.

I think this is where you have it wrong. What you mean to say is that "Caron is not a superstar". There are plenty of legitimate NBA All-Stars who play either average or slightly below average defense (as Caron does). There are, however, no NBA superstars who play below average defense.

To look at it very simplistically, Caron is a guy who puts up around 20-22ppg, 5-6rebs, and 4-5asts on above-average efficiency with either average or slightly below average defense. That's legitimate All-Star numbers. That's star-player-numbers. But that's not the work of a superstar (obviously).

truwizfan4evr · Post #18 » by **truwizfan4evr** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:10 am

we not tradeing caron thats the end of it

WizarDynasty · Post #19 » by **WizarDynasty** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:41 am

miller31time wrote:
WizarDynasty wrote:Caron is not a true allstar, a true allstar is dominant on both sides of the court. Caron almost never hold the guy he is guarding below is seasons scoring average.

I think this is where you have it wrong. What you mean to say is that "Caron is not a superstar". There are plenty of legitimate NBA All-Stars who play either average or slightly below average defense (as Caron does). There are, however, no NBA superstars who play below average defense.

To look at it very simplistically, Caron is a guy who puts up around 20-22ppg, 5-6rebs, and 4-5asts on above-average efficiency with either average or slightly below average defense. That's legitimate All-Star numbers. That's star-player-numbers. But that's not the work of a superstar (obviously).

Its really easy to understand. In each matchup--players on each side have a normal oil production that they normally produce each game. Every time Jamison and caron allow their players to produce even more oil than what they average..jamison and caron have to produce even more oil just to make up for their poor defence and keep the race even.
With Arenas, the wizards normally got a ton of easy free throws every game to make up the extra points that jamison, butler, and arenas gave up on offense.
What you take these easy points away...-wizards have to find a way to make up for it. If you lose ten easy points per game..the only way to make up for it is to take away ten points per game from the opposing team.
Caron and Jamison are definitely not taking ten points away from the opposing team because each time they allow the guy they are guarding to score above their season average..caron and butler aren't producing more oil just to make for this difference. The only time the wizards have won was when Caron exceed his average more than he allowed the player he was guarding to exceed his average. Championship Playoff teams win because their star players decrease production while maintaining... who they are guardings average. Until caron is sent to bench a replaced with a player who decreases his opponent production while maintaining his own, this team will not be winning any top ranked playoff matches against true contenders in a 7 game series.
The problem Grunfeld should have realized is that those easy 10 points the wizards rely from arenas to make up for the extra points they give up are taken away from them in away games during the playoffs. Arenas does not get those easy calls that he gets in the regular season and the wizards aren't able to play above average man to man defense for the majority of the game with their big three who are on the court for the majority of the minutes. if you pay attention, almost all championship squads are built around a player who is above offensive play and above average man to man defender. Caron does not have the attributes to lead this team to a championship, neither does jamison, neither does arenas. They are role players collected by a shortsighted GM. Blatche shows potential to be above average on both sides of the court but I don't see anyone else on this team with this ability.

Post #20 » by **miller31time** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:50 am

WizarDynasty wrote:If caron almost never holds the opposing small forward below his season average...i would not consider him a "slightly below average defender".

You say "almost never" meaning sometimes he does but most of the time, he doesn't. The question is, when he doesn't hold the opposing small forward below his season average, how much extra does that player score?