RealGM

Im still not sure 100% how things work on this board so feel free to merge if needed.

1st off let me say that I have always been torn about our coaching situation. 1 minute I hate EJ and dont think we can win with him but the other half of me thinks that he is a very good Coach and I love his Offensive system. I actually hate watching Georgetown because JT still runs the tradiotinal style version of the Princeton which is ok for inferor talent like Princeton has but he should run EJ"s style at Georgetown. If he did that then they would win a ton more games. As of now I think kids will stop going there.

For the Wiz part of me wanted to bring in a strong Defensive Coach like Thibbedau. I use to love Avery a couple of years ago but I started to hate him so I never wanted him, Mitchell, or even Carlisle last season like others did. I dont think they fit right with this team. The main thing for me is that I love the Princeton Offense and I think that if we are fully healthy then it can be unstoppable with our players, espicaly with Gil becoming a much better passer. Thats why I kind of wanted Thibbedau as the HC but for Ernie to let it be known that we will still play uptempo and to keep Unseld Jr. to run the Princeton O. Then I started wanting Unseld to be the HC and bring in one of the Bucks assistants to be our top assitant because I have always loved Skiles style of Defense. 2 things that have always scared me about the Coaching search is us getting someone that will change our O and getting someone who doesnt really know our players and will pre judge them. Ewing wanted the job but I remember him in the past saying that Areans is ok but I dont like PG's like him. Maybe he wouldve came here and tried to move Gil to the 2. That wouldve been ok until last season when it was clear when he came back that he can be a true PG now.

Flip is a guy I have always liked and he was always my fall back choice. I dont know if he's my 1st pick but if you pick him then Im not upset. I like the fact that he was here in Camp so he may not exactly know our players and team but he's not foreign to them. I also love the thought of his Zone D. Lets face it, Gil is never ever going to go hard on D unless he's trying to make the Olympic team and AJ will always suck. We set records every year on D in the 3pt catagories. Maybe that Zone will help that. Im scared that it will hurt our rebounding but weve never been consistent at it anyways. My fear is that he's an Offensive Coach and his system is well respected so Im pretty sure he will change from the Princeton O. Ive heard some Wiz fans rip the Princeton but I love it. I feel 50/50 on the thought of changing it right now. A ton of players around the league say that it was so hard to stop and we were one of the few teams who could put up big numbers on even the top Defenses. On the flip side, we have good Offensive players so maybe they could thrive in any system. I would love for Ernie to tell him to keep Unseld so we can keep some of the Princeton though. The best thing is that I think Flip will play who he likes and will give guys like NY a fair shot

What Happens to the Princeton?

Me and Pete Carril keep repping it.


For serious though, depends on the coach. With Flip, I have no qualms giving up the Princeton in favor of a more traditional NBA offense, especially if it means we get the best out of Gilbert 2.0 (or Gilbert 3.0, whatever version we are on now), as he alluded to in some of his previous statements (about not forcing things because he knows he'll have the ball in his hands, etc.)

Let's hope it died with EJ. Like my old sig used to say, End Weave and Heave.

Wiz are still running big chunks of it now. Whoever they hire is probably going to change the offense. Flip Saunders, the name du jour, prefers the Hawk system (related to Wooden's old UCLA offense, and brought to the NBA by Hubie Brown) with adjustments. A lot of it gets keyed by running the SG off a high post screen. Flip's big innovation was running the Hawk stuff on both sides of the floor, which made it even tougher to defend.

TheSecretWeapon wrote:Wiz are still running big chunks of it now. Whoever they hire is probably going to change the offense. Flip Saunders, the name du jour, prefers the Hawk system (related to Wooden's old UCLA offense, and brought to the NBA by Hubie Brown) with adjustments. A lot of it gets keyed by running the SG off a high post screen. Flip's big innovation was running the Hawk stuff on both sides of the floor, which made it even tougher to defend.

Hmm. Has Flip's system been effective with a role-playing, offensively deficient SG? There's a big drop off from Spree and Rip to DeShawn and McGuire.

Maybe Flip can influence Ernie to get a real SG in here. Package some bums or something. Or run Gil at the 2 sometimes.

keynote wrote:

TheSecretWeapon wrote:Wiz are still running big chunks of it now. Whoever they hire is probably going to change the offense. Flip Saunders, the name du jour, prefers the Hawk system (related to Wooden's old UCLA offense, and brought to the NBA by Hubie Brown) with adjustments. A lot of it gets keyed by running the SG off a high post screen. Flip's big innovation was running the Hawk stuff on both sides of the floor, which made it even tougher to defend.

Hmm. Has Flip's system been effective with a role-playing, offensively deficient SG? There's a big drop off from Spree and Rip to DeShawn and McGuire.

It doesn't matter who gets designated SG on the offensive end. Saunders could use Arenas or Butler in that role.

Nick Young might be very effective coming off picks. We know he can hit the off-balance turnaround fadeaway.

Remember, the offense is "keyed" or "initiated" by the SG making a cut off a high post screen. The actual Hawk offense involves a series of screens and cuts with myriad options and counters. It also flows nicely into a continuity system like passing game.

nate33 wrote:Nick Young might be very effective coming off picks. We know he can hit the off-balance turnaround fadeaway.

+1 Most everyone on this board says that N1 is a more athletic version of Rip Hamilton. He'd be dynamic if the offense was more focused on him getting free for mid-range jumpers. Flip is no fool I'm sure he see's Nick and thinks the same thing. The difference between Hamilton and Young is that Young is a much better athlete who can dribble drive and is a finish better than Hamilton. I don't feel that their mid-range games are that different. Young will stay, Stevenson will go if anything.

Well if thats his O then we should only use it when NY is in the game. Im definatly not with all this talk about using Gil in that role. In the past, yes. Now, he's a legit PG who is just capable of getting 30. He changed when he came back last year. He was much more willing to pass and was elite at it. You saw that again in his 2 games this year. Thats why I would love to see us have the Princeton one more time with Gil running it as a true PG. It would be like when New Jersey had Jason Kidd except Gil can also get 30. I think we wouldve been super hard to stop. I will like it if we bring in Cassell though. Id much rather him him around our PG's instead of Tapscott. I would also like to see us keep Massenburg. Im also scared of the fact that we could have a good team next year from the jump if we keep that Princeton but if we take Saunders O then it may take us 20 games or so to really start clicking with it. In those 20 games it may cause an irrevesersable sadness where they start to think that they are now healthy and still arent anything but an average team while guys are struggling to put up any kind of consistent numbers

I don't think the offensive system is that big a deal, especially for Gil. He's smart and extremely talented, and assuming he's healthy, he's going to excel in any offensive system. The guys most likely to be affected by a system change already don't the Princeton system well enough.

As for looking like the Nets on offense when Kidd was there, no thanks. The Nets were a mediocre offensive team when Kidd was the PG. They went to the Finals because of their defense.

Die Princeton "offense" die Princeton offense, die, Die, DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here's a nice writeup on the Hawk offense. A few highlights:

The basic option of the Hawk offense is the off guard's rub cut off a high post screen. The point guard initiates the action with dribble penetration to the wing as the high post sets a back screen for the off guard.

1. POINT ISOLATION: The point guard has the option of turning the corner for a drive to the basket whenever he feels he can beat his defender one-on-one.

2. HIGH POST RUB: The point guard O1 looks to feed O2 making a basket cut off O4’s high post screen or posting up against a smaller or weaker defender. Should the defender get hung up on O4’s high post screen or trail O2 it will certainly result in an easy lay up.

3. BALL REVERSAL: If O1 cannot feed O2 inside, O1 then looks to make a reversal pass out to O4 stepping out to initiate weakside, post isolation action. As O4 receives the ball, post O5 flashes to the middle for a Hi/Lo pass from O4. When O5’s defender X5 overplays the Hi/Lo pass, O4 passes to wing O3 who in turn will feed O5 rolling to the basket against the defensive overplay.

4. CONTINUNITY: Most teams flow into a motion or passing game continuity.

Hopefully, our PG will regain the ability to turn the corner whenever he feels he can beat his defender one-on-one.

TheSecretWeapon wrote:I don't think the offensive system is that big a deal, especially for Gil. He's smart and extremely talented, and assuming he's healthy, he's going to excel in any offensive system. The guys most likely to be affected by a system change already don't the Princeton system well enough.

As for looking like the Nets on offense when Kidd was there, no thanks. The Nets were a mediocre offensive team when Kidd was the PG. They went to the Finals because of their defense.

Yeah but thats the thing. WE would look like them except Gil can score way more then Kidd, the big 2 are way better pure scorers then there next 2, and our role players are better scorers then theres. I just think it wouldve been perfect. I do agree that guys like NY & Blatche or whoever may play alot better in Flips system then the Princeton

I'm not at all worried about the offense under Flip.

Butler and Jamison are talented offensive players who've scored well on different teams and for many different coaches. Like TSW said, Gil's a talented offensive player in any system. I think Nick Young will do well.

Offense is not a concern to me at all. The players are offensive players. That's not going to change under Saunders.

God please get rid of Stevenson and Etan...just cut them. Please god, please.

I guess we could move Caron to the 2 and Dom to the 3. We did that for most of this season because Tap was an idiot. Caron totally sucks at the 2 as he is forced to catch the ball much further out on the floor. He then switched Caron back to the 3 when Gil came back and ever since he looked like the Caron of last year. In Flip's system if it goes by those reports then I could see Caron playing the 2 and thriving at it. He's great in the mid range gurl and could do well coming off the screens. I also love the fact that it allows the PG to turn the Corner because even when Gil was last healthy I felt he started falling in love with the J to much and not penetrating like he use to. Maybe this system would get him back to that

Bump


I had to bump this thread right no. Lets just hope that I was right in my 2nd post about it taking 20 games to get going and not causing an irreversible sadness. I just read Gil's comments on the insider about how hard it is to get everyone involved while still staying aggressive. I hate how Gil never takes responsibilty and throws everyone else under the bus so I was glad to hear him finally say this. Alot of people will take that as Gil struggling to do it because he's not a real PG but I dont buy that at all. Again, I think him and our O would be lighting it up right now with the Princeton and he would have a ton of assist. Gil blamed EJ for his lack of assist but I always said that was garbage. He then also said that it was because DS was at the 2 so he had to score but I still said that was garbage. He just was a scorer at that time with no PG skills, plain & simple. It all changed when he missed that year and we won without him. People try to say that he changed at the end of last season but it really changed when he missed that 1st season and we won those games. If you saw the way he played when he came back late in the year then you could tell he had it down pat. He was getting like 20 & 6 off the bench in limited minutes. His assist were really even better than that because he had a ton of passes to guys that were getting fouled while shooting. They dont count as assist but you could tell it was easy for him. Then last year he is dead hurt and gets 10ast in both games. I think he would be lighting it up right now in the Princeton while easily being able to keep everyone involved. Flips system is much different. To me I can see why Pistons fans say that you cant win in the playoffs with it. They said that its designed for all jumpers and a great Defensive team can easily take away the plays in the playoffs.

Again, the #1 thing I hate is that it takes away our high screen play with Gil. Flip doesnt run it like EJ or the rest of the teams. Gil use to come off a Haywood pick real tight and be one on one with the opposing teams Center in the middle of the lane. They cant stop a quck guard like him. Its either going to be a bucket or a foul. Flip never runs it tight and its always moreso to make Gil pass it. Mostly all our pick & rolls are loose, meaning that the guy who sets the screen always peels off early or is not close enough to Gil to make a switch. This allows the PG to get back in front of Gil like half the time. The other half of the time a team traps Gil and he takes it way sideways. Never ever is Gil basically coming off it and going directly to the hoop. Its moreso he just drifts sideways to give it back to AJ or to force the trap and swing it. Thats the #1 play for us to run for scores in the past because of Gil and now its gone. Then most of our other plays Gil is just sitting at the top and has to wait for a wing to come off a screen and he just gives it to him. Its basic stuff. Thats why Gil said that its not hard to learn. No kidding. Its so basic to me and even though all these PG's scored well in it, its still moreso designed for the PG to make passes.

As good as all the PG's Flip had were, none of them were Gil. None of them were the #1 scoring option on the team so the opponents D was never designed to stop them 1st. Our's is. Opponents are always going to try to stop Gil 1st so it makes him even more of a passer. Dont get me wrong, he's not doing all passing but my point is that most of his shots because of that will be contested J's. Then after none of that works, you see Gil say screw it, Im going one on one. Thats when he starts setting his guy up out top by going through the legs a few times. Its a great move and he always blows by his guy but you can see him setting it up a mile away so its so easy for the rest of the D to come over and stop it.

The other problem I have is that its always a long setup play where the Princeton is based on alot of guys moving and you can get guys in quick scoring position. This Offense seems more like Gil has to wait at the top, bigs setting screens, while everyone waits for the SG to curl. The easiest play by far is Gil runnning the pick & roll with AJ just to give it back to AJ. Everything else is basic and dependant. Its like Gil cant even be the man by himself right now even if he wanted to. He almost says that on the insider. He basicaly says that he needs Miller or Foye to start because they come off that screen and can shoot or drive and make plays themselves. It truly is super hard for him to dominate a game like in the past with the way the system is designed right now.

The good thing is that we are only 12 games in and have mad talent. As I said in the 1st post, it may take 20 games before guys feel comfortable since its totally different than the Princeton. I think guys do have to adjust. Wood & AJ cant be black holes. They think they are supposed to shoot it every time they get it. Gil passes, Caron passes, and Miller passes. AJ & Wood rarely ever make the extra pass. If they do that more then the O will be better. Gil has to stop setting guys up one on one with all the dribbles out front. It doesnt work in this system. He will score much easier one on one if he just goes with it. He's quick enough to go by guys without the crosses. As soon as he receives the ball back sometimes he should just go or like a football player, make one move and go. If he sets his guy up then the D will always recover and it wont work in this system. You have to make quicker moves. Its the same with Caron. The Princeton was about isos and making moves. This system you have to make quick decisions and go. No hesistation, no setting guys up. Thats the major adjustment. When they figure that out then we will score 120 every game. Flip also has to cut down the rotation. You cant start two guards and then come off the bench with 3 guards. It wont work. One of those bench guys have to be out of the rotation or they will all just get scattered minutes and suck. Even vet guys