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Abe Pollin Dies (RIP)

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Re: Abe Pollin Dies (RIP) 

Post#101 » by Kanyewest » Thu Dec 3, 2009 6:59 pm

Pradamaster wrote:
Kanyewest wrote:^^^ In other words looking at it rationally, you can't argue that Chris Webber wasn't a top 5 player on the basketball court during that span of time. OK. Look I don't like Kobe Bryant and the Colorado incident was indicative of his character, especially how he told the police how Shaq does this king of thing all the time. He's still a top 3 player in the league and the Lakers were right to stick behind him when the rape allegations reached their height.

You also seem to have a different version of history. I remember the Sacremento Kings losing to the Dallas Mavericks in 7 games right after Chris Webber went down with that knee injury in game 2. I'm pretty sure the Kings were a heavy favorites and without Webber, the tables turned with that injury.

As for them having a nice regular season, that was to be expected especially with the acquisition of Brad Miller as opposed to an aging Vlade Divac. And as I said before, Chris Webber was no longer the same player he was after the knee injury so it makes sense that they struggled after his return to the lineup.

I would also argue that the Wizards could have taken a different direction, but not when you are getting Mitch Richmond at the end of his career along Otis Thorpe. Ultimately, the direction that the Wizards were going, trading malcontent for model citizen didn't make sense AT ALL because they didn't evaluate how the trade worked on the basketball court. Abe Pollin is to blame for taking the Wizards in that direction. Instead of waiting for Webber's value to rebound over time, he moved Webber when his value was pennies on the dollar.


Dallas was 60-22 that year; Sacramento was 59-23. Not sure how that makes Sacramento a huge favorite.


The Kings had already won game 1 in the series at Dallas. The mavericks certainly played well in the regular season (the Vax Exel, Steve Nash, and Dirk Nowitzki. Plus Dallas just got out of the 1st round against the Portland Trail Blazers in a 7 game series (the Mavericks blew a 3-0 series lead and had to come from behind to win game 7) and the Blazers were not exactly a great team. Yes the Mavericks had a better regular season record but nobody was predicting that the Mavericks would defeat the King, hence it would have been a major upset had Chris Webber been healthy.
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Re: Abe Pollin Dies (RIP) 

Post#102 » by dobrojim » Thu Dec 3, 2009 7:36 pm

my bottom line

Abe was well within reason to want to trade him.
He had been with the team 4 years w/ one playoff
appearance, no playoff wins.

Yes, it's quite likely that more patience would have yielded
a better return. But I think Mitch's rapid decline was not as foreseeable
as some have argued. For 10 years in a row he put up 21.9 (low)
to as high as 25+ ppg 2 years before he came here.
A lot of what we call 'thought' is just mental activity
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Re: Abe Pollin Dies (RIP) 

Post#103 » by Kanyewest » Fri Dec 4, 2009 5:01 am

^^ Except for the fact that the Wizards traded for Mitch Richmond who also hadn't done jack in the playoffs. Sure, Abe wouldn't have been wrong to trade him had they gone for a youth movement. But trading for Mitch Richmond was HORRIBLE. I knew it was a horrible trade the day it was announced, although even I underestimated how bad of a deal it actually was because I didn't realize that it would relegate the rest of the team as untradeable (at least for anything worthwhile).

Not getting a playoff win isn't as bad as it sounds considering that they played the Chicago Bulls in the 1st round, who were last time I checked, one of the greatest teams ever in NBA history. And the Eastern Conference was much stronger back then than it was in recent history. The Wizards finished with a 42-40 that season, which was the same record the Wizards had in the 2005-06 and 2006-07 where they made the playoffs.

So trading Chris Webber for an older shooting guard who hadn't done jack in the playoffs either over a longer career and in a weaker conference made sense? There's a reason why Wes Unseld is considered one of the worst GMs of all time.
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Re: Abe Pollin Dies (RIP) 

Post#104 » by dobrojim » Fri Dec 4, 2009 5:25 pm

you're right that winning a game vs CHI would have been really tough.
But why was that team an 8th seed!?!??! Underachievement, I say.
You had 77, CWebb, Juwan, Strickland, and good backup Cs in Jimmy Mac.

My other point I think remains, Mitch had been a stud his whole career.
That he would regress IMMEDIATELY and significantly on his arrival was not
that foreseeable.

Bottom line - you like CWebb, I saw him as talented but ultimately flawed.
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Re: Abe Pollin Dies (RIP) 

Post#105 » by Kanyewest » Fri Dec 4, 2009 6:38 pm

dobrojim wrote:you're right that winning a game vs CHI would have been really tough.
But why was that team an 8th seed!?!??! Underachievement, I say.
You had 77, CWebb, Juwan, Strickland, and good backup Cs in Jimmy Mac.

My other point I think remains, Mitch had been a stud his whole career.
That he would regress IMMEDIATELY and significantly on his arrival was not
that foreseeable.

Bottom line - you like CWebb, I saw him as talented but ultimately flawed.


Jimmy MacLavaine wasn't on that team that made the playoffs (he would have helped had the Supersonics not overpaid for his services). Juwan Howard aside from one season was VERY overrated. Yes Strickland waas a good distributor and was crafty in his ability to score. But by no means was Calbert Cheaney a good enough player at the shooting guard position for this team to go anywhere in the playoffs (see Jordan torching Cheaney in the 1996-97 playoffs).

Again, the depth in the Eastern Conference was much better than it was today. Just look at he 7 seed Orlando Magic, who finished with 44 wins. Yes, they didn't have Shaq but they had a prime Penny Hardaway and a veteran supporting cast with guys like Horace Grant and Dennis Scott and core which had beaten the Bulls en route to the NBA Finals. Ultimately, the Wizards while talented were very young and inexperienced and it made sense why they weren't an elite team. Frankly the while talented the pieces didn't fit well together.

And it makes sense why the Wizards didn't improve upon their 43-39 season the following year. Ghorge Muresan was lost to career ending injury and had to rely on the likes of Terry Davis and a developing Ben Wallace to play minutes at center. They were again were without Tim Legler for most of the season who would have allowed the Wizards to spread the court.

I wouldn't say the only reason the trade failed is because Richmond rapidly declined. He did have a decent season in his first season in Washington. But it brought out the fact that Juwan Howard was regressing, Calbert Cheaney wasn't that good to begin with, and Webber was very important for the limited success that this team even had.
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Re: Abe Pollin Dies (RIP) 

Post#106 » by montestewart » Sun Dec 6, 2009 12:48 am

Richmond was 33 when he started his first season for the Wizards. His precipitous decline was not a certainty, but given his age, it was increasingly likely to happen immediately or very soon, just as it is with Jamison or almost any other player that reaches that age.

Richmond had a great career and is to me a good example of a fine player on a not-so-fine squad for most of his career. My sister gave me some court side seats (near center court) for a Wizards-Knicks game in Richmond's second year. The Knicks made it to the finals the year before and were still a very good team. The Wizards, not so good, and by that time, it was clear that Richmond was not a good return for Webber, but that night was an exception, as he out-dueled Sprewell (they both got 30-something) and the Wizards won in overtime. That may have been his best game as a Wizard.
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Re: Abe Pollin Dies (RIP) 

Post#107 » by greendale » Sun Dec 6, 2009 2:59 am

I'm not certain how Webber could ever have been a top five in the League player when he seldom was the best player on his own team. Perhaps someone can explain.

The other problem I have with this discussion is the fact that with Webber the Wizards weren't particularly good and HAD VIRTUALLY NO PROSPECTS OF IMPROVING. The roster had 8-10 players that were not NBA caliber. The Wizards were missing a number of draft picks and had no cap space to maneuver with. Webber was the source of all of these problems. He had to be removed.
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Re: Abe Pollin Dies (RIP) 

Post#108 » by fishercob » Sun Dec 6, 2009 3:08 am

montestewart wrote:Richmond was 33 when he started his first season for the Wizards. His precipitous decline was not a certainty, but given his age, it was increasingly likely to happen immediately or very soon, just as it is with Jamison or almost any other player that reaches that age.

Richmond had a great career and is to me a good example of a fine player on a not-so-fine squad for most of his career. My sister gave me some court side seats (near center court) for a Wizards-Knicks game in Richmond's second year. The Knicks made it to the finals the year before and were still a very good team. The Wizards, not so good, and by that time, it was clear that Richmond was not a good return for Webber, but that night was an exception, as he out-dueled Sprewell (they both got 30-something) and the Wizards won in overtime. That may have been his best game as a Wizard.


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Re: Abe Pollin Dies (RIP) 

Post#109 » by montestewart » Sun Dec 6, 2009 3:15 am

fishercob wrote:
montestewart wrote:Richmond was 33 when he started his first season for the Wizards. His precipitous decline was not a certainty, but given his age, it was increasingly likely to happen immediately or very soon, just as it is with Jamison or almost any other player that reaches that age.

Richmond had a great career and is to me a good example of a fine player on a not-so-fine squad for most of his career. My sister gave me some court side seats (near center court) for a Wizards-Knicks game in Richmond's second year. The Knicks made it to the finals the year before and were still a very good team. The Wizards, not so good, and by that time, it was clear that Richmond was not a good return for Webber, but that night was an exception, as he out-dueled Sprewell (they both got 30-something) and the Wizards won in overtime. That may have been his best game as a Wizard.


Dude, I'm married and all, but can I get her number? :D


Yeah, she's my sister and all (and married too), but she sure scored some points with me. She was working for a company that owned the seats and gave them to their top producers, and she usually was. Sometimes I'd be watching the game on TV and yell, "There she is!" My wife convinced her that the Wizards-Knicks game would be a great Xmas gift for me (the Knicks are my second favorite team; I've suffered for basketball). Too bad she switched jobs.
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Re: Abe Pollin Dies (RIP) 

Post#110 » by montestewart » Mon Dec 7, 2009 2:12 am

I hate talking about a loss right after, so I'll dwell in the past.

greendale wrote:I'm not certain how Webber could ever have been a top five in the League player when he seldom was the best player on his own team. Perhaps someone can explain.

The other problem I have with this discussion is the fact that with Webber the Wizards weren't particularly good and HAD VIRTUALLY NO PROSPECTS OF IMPROVING. The roster had 8-10 players that were not NBA caliber. The Wizards were missing a number of draft picks and had no cap space to maneuver with. Webber was the source of all of these problems. He had to be removed.


I'm assuming this is just the disgruntled hyperbole of someone who (as I did) followed the Bullets/Wizards in frustration for some time before Webber arrived. Just to be sure, I checked the roster for that year. They had sixteen players on the roster that year. I can imagine arguments that 8 weren't NBA-caliber, but I disagree, unless the argument is "they weren't rotation players." Webber, Strickland, Cheaney, Howard, Ben Wallace, Terry Davis, Tracy Murray, Chris Whitney and (arguably) Darvin Ham were NBA-caliber players, and many of the others were younger, older, injured, specialists etc that fill out rosters throughout the NBA, even on champions.

The team had a good core, but, as you stated, they were not particularly good (42-40) and had no cap space or draft picks to make changes with. This wasn't Webber's fault: he didn't trade the draft picks, and he didn't resign Howard to that contract (and that non-move might have changed everything). I'm not among the people that bemoan his departure, because they needed to do something to try and move on. I just think they could have gotten more for him because, while he wasn't great and I thought he shrunk from the challenge, he was pretty damn talented and sometimes he WAS was the best player on the Warriors, Wizards, and Kings.
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Re: Abe Pollin Dies (RIP) 

Post#111 » by doclinkin » Wed May 19, 2010 12:36 am

Thank you Uncle Abe. Nice to see maybe good acts give you some pull to bring a little happiness to the fans you left behind.
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Re: Abe Pollin Dies (RIP) 

Post#112 » by pancakes3 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:16 pm

Bump for Irene. Sad. I'm sad now.
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Re: Abe Pollin Dies (RIP) 

Post#113 » by miller31time » Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:07 pm

Such a sad day in Wizards history. But 96 is a long life. Thoughts are with their family.
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Re: Abe Pollin Dies (RIP) 

Post#114 » by pancakes3 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:26 pm

seeing her in her yellow jacket winning the lottery is a top 5 wizards memory for me.
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Re: Abe Pollin Dies (RIP) 

Post#115 » by Kanyewest » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:23 am

Gilbert Arenas says his Wizards legacy died with Abe Pollin: ‘I was a Hall of Famer in his eyes’
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/06/16/gilbert-arenas-says-his-wizards-legacy-died-with-abe-pollin-i-was-hall-famer-his-eyes/

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