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Abe Pollin Dies (RIP)

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Re: Abe Pollin Dies (RIP) 

Post#81 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:38 pm

I wish my wife would lie to me. What I wouldn't give for an "It's yours!' these days. And folks wonder why my posts are so cranky. :)

I second what you said about doclinkin, greendale.

I hope the Wiz can "Bring out the cake" and make Abe proud this season.
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Re: Abe Pollin Dies (RIP) 

Post#82 » by Zerocious » Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:39 pm

to those needing to be 'a realist' or WTF have something negative to say about abe, shame on you. You've had decades to bring it up and create all the threads you want to say how much he sucks and what not, but you wait until now and can't give a dead man and his family some respect. shame on you.
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Re: Abe Pollin Dies (RIP) 

Post#83 » by doclinkin » Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:50 pm

greendale wrote:
doclinkin wrote:I loved old uncle Abe.


It's either that or you're a better faker than my wife. Oops, wrong thread.

Doc, you know you take all the fun out of posting. It's always a waste of time to say anothing other than +1 following one of your posts.


Well shoot-- then this scab-knuckled liberaI surely needs to post more in the politics thread. :clown:
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Re: Abe Pollin Dies (RIP) 

Post#84 » by Cramer » Wed Nov 25, 2009 5:01 pm

A very sad day. I guess one word sums him up.

Class.

I 'm 50, and following sports for I guess about 43 years of that time, and all the while rooting for the same favorite teams; Bullets/Wiz, Cowboys, O's (well a couple of years of the Senators) and Terps.

It occurred to me that only one person has been a constant with those teams during all that time...and now he's gone. It's sad and I'm getting old.


I'm going to the Caps game tonight. Has anyone heard if or what they're going to do to honor him?
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Re: Abe Pollin Dies (RIP) 

Post#85 » by Chaos Revenant » Wed Nov 25, 2009 5:08 pm

The same qualities that made Abe Pollin a great man and a great icon for this city (Even I was old enough to have seen that area of DC pre-Verizon/MCI, and that area post Verizon/MCI - it speaks for itself) - the loyalty, the principles...were actually at times detrimental to the nitty-gritty of running the franchise he loved. Yes, Chris Webber was a nutcase and had terrible, terrible character...but Chris Webber by all rights should have an NBA title. He pleased the fans by keeping Juwan Howard...but that deadlocked us for years. To me, Abe was a person who stood for what he believed in, even if the outcome didn't go as planned. That is an admirable quality...but it makes one wish he had hired a highly regarded basketball mind (at least until 2004; never mind that Ernie was never that good) that he could work well with.

If you want to derive an actual personal failing from it, it may well be stubbornness - we see this in his dealings with MJ (though valid - if Pollin had flaws as an owner, MJ should not even be near basketball in any capacity unless he can get a time machine that can make him 30 again), his support of Unseld (I admire his loyalty in keeping him as a part of this organization, but did he have to make him the GM?), and his reaction to media criticism (even when valid - yes it shows the personal connection to his team, but it also made him seem as one unwilling to change).

With that said, it's a shame someone like Morey in Houston couldn't have been his GM. I think Morey would have been an Abe Pollin guy from start to finish, both in temperament and personnel strategy.

It's ironic - I think Abe would have made a hell of an NFL owner. The NFL is a league that rewards character, loyalty, stability, heart, pride, and rewards them with titles (see the Rooneys, the Maras), all of which Abe had in spades. How different would the Redskins be with Abe as owner? Probably winning, for one thing. And not only winning, they'd be winning in a way that would make not only this metropolitan area proud, but the entire NFL proud.

Basketball, however, is a more cutthroat, more glitzy, more star-power dependent league, where playing hard doesn't mean as much if you don't have a 40" vert or a 7 inch wingspan, or where character and leadership won't make up for the fact that you're a 6'9 tweener forward with no defensive tools. In the NFL, those guys can play, play well, and play at a Hall of Fame level because football is as much a mental and spiritual game as a physical game, whereas I cannot say the same of the NBA. The NBA punishes loyalty - if you pay a guy 5 years/100 million, and he's not a star player, you're stuck. No matter how good a guy he is. Abe's loyalty was truly commendable, but never could balance his loyalty and principles with his desire to win. At the very least, the balance was for the former, which has to be the next best thing.
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Re: Abe Pollin Dies (RIP) 

Post#86 » by greendale » Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:42 pm

doclinkin wrote:Well shoot-- then this scab-knuckled liberaI surely needs to post more in the politics thread. :clown:


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Re: Abe Pollin Dies (RIP) 

Post#87 » by dobrojim » Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:52 pm

Cramer/Greendale, we may disagree diametrically on politics, but it sure
is refreshing to know how much we agree on things of possibly even greater
importance.

I was tearing up sometimes listening to the pre-game on the drive in
with all the calls from people for whom Abe had done wonderful things.

I think the best thing that was said about him was what one of the
guys (Lavar?) said, that he inspired people to try be better than they
were by the example he set. There's not much that you can say that says more
about his character than that does.
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Re: Abe Pollin Dies (RIP) 

Post#88 » by dobrojim » Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:58 pm

Chaos Revenant wrote:The same qualities that made Abe Pollin a great man and a great icon for this city (Even I was old enough to have seen that area of DC pre-Verizon/MCI, and that area post Verizon/MCI - it speaks for itself) - the loyalty, the principles...were actually at times detrimental to the nitty-gritty of running the franchise he loved. Yes, Chris Webber was a nutcase and had terrible, terrible character...but Chris Webber by all rights should have an NBA title. He pleased the fans by keeping Juwan Howard...but that deadlocked us for years. To me, Abe was a person who stood for what he believed in, even if the outcome didn't go as planned. That is an admirable quality...but it makes one wish he had hired a highly regarded basketball mind (at least until 2004; never mind that Ernie was never that good) that he could work well with.

If you want to derive an actual personal failing from it, it may well be stubbornness - we see this in his dealings with MJ (though valid - if Pollin had flaws as an owner, MJ should not even be near basketball in any capacity unless he can get a time machine that can make him 30 again), his support of Unseld (I admire his loyalty in keeping him as a part of this organization, but did he have to make him the GM?), and his reaction to media criticism (even when valid - yes it shows the personal connection to his team, but it also made him seem as one unwilling to change).

With that said, it's a shame someone like Morey in Houston couldn't have been his GM. I think Morey would have been an Abe Pollin guy from start to finish, both in temperament and personnel strategy.

It's ironic - I think Abe would have made a hell of an NFL owner. The NFL is a league that rewards character, loyalty, stability, heart, pride, and rewards them with titles (see the Rooneys, the Maras), all of which Abe had in spades. How different would the Redskins be with Abe as owner? Probably winning, for one thing. And not only winning, they'd be winning in a way that would make not only this metropolitan area proud, but the entire NFL proud.

Basketball, however, is a more cutthroat, more glitzy, more star-power dependent league, where playing hard doesn't mean as much if you don't have a 40" vert or a 7 inch wingspan, or where character and leadership won't make up for the fact that you're a 6'9 tweener forward with no defensive tools. In the NFL, those guys can play, play well, and play at a Hall of Fame level because football is as much a mental and spiritual game as a physical game, whereas I cannot say the same of the NBA. The NBA punishes loyalty - if you pay a guy 5 years/100 million, and he's not a star player, you're stuck. No matter how good a guy he is. Abe's loyalty was truly commendable, but never could balance his loyalty and principles with his desire to win. At the very least, the balance was for the former, which has to be the next best thing.


I think you were making a great point but I disagree that CWebb somehow deserved
to be a champion. As talented as he was, there was something about him that I think
ultimately would cause him to fail in the end. Yes, the Kings were robbed in
that one game. A Travesty. But great players, champions, find a way to get it done.
I don't CWebb really had that quality. JMO and spoken as someone who was as excited
as ANYONE when he arrived. I was at his first game vs the Celtics. They lost that game.
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Re: Abe Pollin Dies (RIP) 

Post#89 » by fishercob » Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:03 pm

+1, Jimmy. The first thing that comes to mind when I think of Webber is "star-crossed."

Anyhow, back to Abe. If you have not done so, I strongly recommend reading Mike Prada's tribute at BulletsForever. It's beautifully written:

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2009/11/2 ... hat-sports
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Re: Abe Pollin Dies (RIP) 

Post#90 » by Kanyewest » Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:01 pm

dobrojim wrote:I think you were making a great point but I disagree that CWebb somehow deserved
to be a champion. As talented as he was, there was something about him that I think
ultimately would cause him to fail in the end. Yes, the Kings were robbed in
that one game. A Travesty. But great players, champions, find a way to get it done.
I don't CWebb really had that quality. JMO and spoken as someone who was as excited
as ANYONE when he arrived. I was at his first game vs the Celtics. They lost that game.


I'm calling BS on this especially since game 6 and game 7 were rigged in favor of the Lakers.
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Re: Abe Pollin Dies (RIP) 

Post#91 » by dobrojim » Tue Dec 1, 2009 5:33 am

I really shouldn't thread hijack this but CWebb reminds me, now that I
think about it, of an old college friend who bought a Jubilee Edition 750
Triumph m/c in 77/78. Beautiful motorcycle. 10 years later when I caught up
to him, he said his happiest 2 days with the bike was the day he bought it and
the day he sold it. The longer CWebb was here, the more clear it was he wasn't
leading us anywhere. Remember they missed the playoffs with what should
have been a very solid team. By 1 game. In a season that included a late
season home loss to DEN, which was their first road win of the year. Inexcusable.

He flourished for a while next to Divac in SacTown but Divac was a top shelf
C and they also had a top shelf PG in Bibby. And they had excellent chemistry.
But Webber as their best player wasn't enough there either.

Fish got it right, star-crossed. Abe's instincts were right to trade
him. I won't argue that it seems as though they should have gotten
more for him. But maybe that says as much about him as it did about
our front office at the time. Why couldn't they get more for him?

To the matter at hand, I don't mind an owner who wants his players
to keep their noses clean at least in public. You don't want your team
leader coming to practice baked and making the front page of the Post
for the wrong reasons, more than once especially.
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Re: Abe Pollin Dies (RIP) 

Post#92 » by Kanyewest » Wed Dec 2, 2009 4:52 pm

^^ And that's why Abe Pollin is to blame here. Under his watch, we first watched the Wizards give up too much to get Chris Webber and then watched them get too little in return. Not sure exactly why getting rid of Webber was a good thing especially since the Wizards have only been past the 1st round once in the past decade; his value is what it was at the time, and the Wizards would have been best served to wait for his value to return to normalcy. And especially since Webber was a top 5 player during that 5 year span, the Wizards were bound to get ripped off anyways.

BTW, Chris Webber and Divac made each other better. Divac put up better numbers in less minutes with the Kings than he did with the Charlotte Bobcats. Yes the Kings had much better talent. Webber's improvement really came from him finally being able to knock down free throws. Webber provided low post scoring which is needed when a team wants to contend for a championship.

BTW, the team that the Kings lost to wasn't exactly a scrub team with Shaq and Kobe, and a Phil Jackson led team. Oh yeah, and game 6 and 7 were rigged. An elbow to Bibby's face is called as a defensive foul. Yes, games can be rigged in the NBA and it's foolish to think that a team can be so great to overcome it especially since the Kings weren't that much better than the Lakers who were after all the back to back champions.
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Re: Abe Pollin Dies (RIP) 

Post#93 » by dobrojim » Wed Dec 2, 2009 5:52 pm

CWebb was NEVER a top 5 player in the NBA. Never.

Yes, it can be easily argued, in hindsight, that they gave up too much to get him.
But he was a young stud with a great upside. And the attractiveness
of having both him and Howard from both a team as well as a marketing
perspective made them too eager to deal for him. His own head and then
later injuries limited him to what he would become (the most hated
athlete in PHL by the time he got there, admittedly years later).
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Re: Abe Pollin Dies (RIP) 

Post#94 » by Kanyewest » Wed Dec 2, 2009 7:26 pm

Just out of curiousity sake, which 5 players would you say were better than Chris Webber in 2001-02 season? Yes you have Shaq and Duncan and maybe Kobe and KG but you'd be reaching (at that point of their careers). And during that 5 year span from the 1998-99 season to the 2002-2003 season, I'm curious to see which 5 players you have did better during that stretch.

Ultimately, the Bullets DID give up too much to get Webber. 3 first round picks and a decent player in Googs. So the Bullets got a lot of hype from that trade. It doesn't make it a good trade; then moves like bringing Dana Stubblefield and Dan Wilkonson would considered great moves. Obviously there were reasons to make that trade, it didn't make them good reasons, especially since Webber had a reputation as a malcontent when he fueded with his head coach.

Injuries did limit in at the end of his career but during that 5 year stretch where I mentioned above, he was a great player. Did his head really limit him? No; only fans who truly dislike the character of Chris Webber use that as an excuse. After that knee injury in Dallas, he was done, could barely jump over a book.
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Re: Abe Pollin Dies (RIP) 

Post#95 » by montestewart » Thu Dec 3, 2009 4:11 am

Kanyewest wrote:Just out of curiousity sake, which 5 players would you say were better than Chris Webber in 2001-02 season? Yes you have Shaq and Duncan and maybe Kobe and KG but you'd be reaching (at that point of their careers). And during that 5 year span from the 1998-99 season to the 2002-2003 season, I'm curious to see which 5 players you have did better during that stretch.

Ultimately, the Bullets DID give up too much to get Webber. 3 first round picks and a decent player in Googs. So the Bullets got a lot of hype from that trade. It doesn't make it a good trade; then moves like bringing Dana Stubblefield and Dan Wilkonson would considered great moves. Obviously there were reasons to make that trade, it didn't make them good reasons, especially since Webber had a reputation as a malcontent when he fueded with his head coach.

Injuries did limit in at the end of his career but during that 5 year stretch where I mentioned above, he was a great player. Did his head really limit him? No; only fans who truly dislike the character of Chris Webber use that as an excuse. After that knee injury in Dallas, he was done, could barely jump over a book.


It depends on what kind of players you're considering as top-5 and whether you're talking about the entirety of that stretch, peaks within that stretch, or a combination of both. You could argue that the tail ends of Stockton, Malone, David Robinson, along with Kidd, Iverson, Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Motumbo, Gary Payton, McGrady, and probably a few others might also be on the list. I always thought Webber was missing something intangible (I sometimes think the same thing about Arenas) and I never thought of him as a top 5 player either. Still, I was sad that he was traded and disappointed with what the Wizards got in return, and that five year run was pretty good for Webber and the Kings (I thought they were robbed in '02). I wouldn't argue too hard that he wasn't top-5 at his peak (eye of the beholder and all).
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Re: Abe Pollin Dies (RIP) 

Post#96 » by dobrojim » Thu Dec 3, 2009 4:45 am

OK Kanye, looking back at the stats, it's easy to say statistically
that CWebb was top five. Strange thing about that though was
the one year he got hurt (which he did a fair amount) and SAC
did better. Probably an anomaly. Still Fish got it right, starcrossed.
And I question how far you could ever go when your #1 guy
is someone with the issues that he had.

We should have known he was as good as gone when after the
sex thing in Potomac at JH's crib, Wes (GM) made a fairly
mild statement about it, saying while all the facts weren't
in, he was disappointed that their players put themselves
into that position. When asked to comment about Wes'
comment, CW said "wes wasn't there". However true that
is, it's also kinda that whole point. Why was /he/ there when
we were struggling to make the playoffs. I don't blame mgmt
and ownership for questioning the direction things were headed.
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Re: Abe Pollin Dies (RIP) 

Post#97 » by Kanyewest » Thu Dec 3, 2009 5:09 am

^^^ In other words looking at it rationally, you can't argue that Chris Webber wasn't a top 5 player on the basketball court during that span of time. OK. Look I don't like Kobe Bryant and the Colorado incident was indicative of his character, especially how he told the police how Shaq does this king of thing all the time. He's still a top 3 player in the league and the Lakers were right to stick behind him when the rape allegations reached their height.

You also seem to have a different version of history. I remember the Sacremento Kings losing to the Dallas Mavericks in 7 games right after Chris Webber went down with that knee injury in game 2. I'm pretty sure the Kings were a heavy favorites and without Webber, the tables turned with that injury.

As for them having a nice regular season, that was to be expected especially with the acquisition of Brad Miller as opposed to an aging Vlade Divac. And as I said before, Chris Webber was no longer the same player he was after the knee injury so it makes sense that they struggled after his return to the lineup.

I would also argue that the Wizards could have taken a different direction, but not when you are getting Mitch Richmond at the end of his career along Otis Thorpe. Ultimately, the direction that the Wizards were going, trading malcontent for model citizen didn't make sense AT ALL because they didn't evaluate how the trade worked on the basketball court. Abe Pollin is to blame for taking the Wizards in that direction. Instead of waiting for Webber's value to rebound over time, he moved Webber when his value was pennies on the dollar.
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Re: Abe Pollin Dies (RIP) 

Post#98 » by Pradamaster » Thu Dec 3, 2009 2:34 pm

Kanyewest wrote:^^^ In other words looking at it rationally, you can't argue that Chris Webber wasn't a top 5 player on the basketball court during that span of time. OK. Look I don't like Kobe Bryant and the Colorado incident was indicative of his character, especially how he told the police how Shaq does this king of thing all the time. He's still a top 3 player in the league and the Lakers were right to stick behind him when the rape allegations reached their height.

You also seem to have a different version of history. I remember the Sacremento Kings losing to the Dallas Mavericks in 7 games right after Chris Webber went down with that knee injury in game 2. I'm pretty sure the Kings were a heavy favorites and without Webber, the tables turned with that injury.

As for them having a nice regular season, that was to be expected especially with the acquisition of Brad Miller as opposed to an aging Vlade Divac. And as I said before, Chris Webber was no longer the same player he was after the knee injury so it makes sense that they struggled after his return to the lineup.

I would also argue that the Wizards could have taken a different direction, but not when you are getting Mitch Richmond at the end of his career along Otis Thorpe. Ultimately, the direction that the Wizards were going, trading malcontent for model citizen didn't make sense AT ALL because they didn't evaluate how the trade worked on the basketball court. Abe Pollin is to blame for taking the Wizards in that direction. Instead of waiting for Webber's value to rebound over time, he moved Webber when his value was pennies on the dollar.


Dallas was 60-22 that year; Sacramento was 59-23. Not sure how that makes Sacramento a huge favorite.
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Re: Abe Pollin Dies (RIP) 

Post#99 » by dobrojim » Thu Dec 3, 2009 5:18 pm

Kanyewest wrote:^^^ In other words looking at it rationally, you can't argue that Chris Webber wasn't a top 5 player on the basketball court during that span of time. OK. Look I don't like Kobe Bryant and the Colorado incident was indicative of his character, especially how he told the police how Shaq does this king of thing all the time. He's still a top 3 player in the league and the Lakers were right to stick behind him when the rape allegations reached their height.

You also seem to have a different version of history. I remember the Sacremento Kings losing to the Dallas Mavericks in 7 games right after Chris Webber went down with that knee injury in game 2. I'm pretty sure the Kings were a heavy favorites and without Webber, the tables turned with that injury.

As for them having a nice regular season, that was to be expected especially with the acquisition of Brad Miller as opposed to an aging Vlade Divac. And as I said before, Chris Webber was no longer the same player he was after the knee injury so it makes sense that they struggled after his return to the lineup.

I would also argue that the Wizards could have taken a different direction, but not when you are getting Mitch Richmond at the end of his career along Otis Thorpe. Ultimately, the direction that the Wizards were going, trading malcontent for model citizen didn't make sense AT ALL because they didn't evaluate how the trade worked on the basketball court. Abe Pollin is to blame for taking the Wizards in that direction. Instead of waiting for Webber's value to rebound over time, he moved Webber when his value was pennies on the dollar.


I'd argue that that's hindsight. Up to coming to DC, Mitch had been a consistent
stud his whole career. In fact, I remember that with the exception of the year
Webber missed with the shoulder dislocation (thanks Oakley) which limited
the sample size, when we traded for Mitch, CWebb had never scored as high
as Mitch had every season of his career. Putting Mitch next to Strickland
did not look that bad on paper. Also Thorpe was very solid. The problem
with him was he was a one year rental that did not want to stick around.
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Re: Abe Pollin Dies (RIP) 

Post#100 » by montestewart » Thu Dec 3, 2009 6:38 pm

dobrojim wrote:
Kanyewest wrote:^^^ In other words looking at it rationally, you can't argue that Chris Webber wasn't a top 5 player on the basketball court during that span of time. OK. Look I don't like Kobe Bryant and the Colorado incident was indicative of his character, especially how he told the police how Shaq does this king of thing all the time. He's still a top 3 player in the league and the Lakers were right to stick behind him when the rape allegations reached their height.

You also seem to have a different version of history. I remember the Sacremento Kings losing to the Dallas Mavericks in 7 games right after Chris Webber went down with that knee injury in game 2. I'm pretty sure the Kings were a heavy favorites and without Webber, the tables turned with that injury.

As for them having a nice regular season, that was to be expected especially with the acquisition of Brad Miller as opposed to an aging Vlade Divac. And as I said before, Chris Webber was no longer the same player he was after the knee injury so it makes sense that they struggled after his return to the lineup.

I would also argue that the Wizards could have taken a different direction, but not when you are getting Mitch Richmond at the end of his career along Otis Thorpe. Ultimately, the direction that the Wizards were going, trading malcontent for model citizen didn't make sense AT ALL because they didn't evaluate how the trade worked on the basketball court. Abe Pollin is to blame for taking the Wizards in that direction. Instead of waiting for Webber's value to rebound over time, he moved Webber when his value was pennies on the dollar.


I'd argue that that's hindsight. Up to coming to DC, Mitch had been a consistent
stud his whole career. In fact, I remember that with the exception of the year
Webber missed with the shoulder dislocation (thanks Oakley) which limited
the sample size, when we traded for Mitch, CWebb had never scored as high
as Mitch had every season of his career. Putting Mitch next to Strickland
did not look that bad on paper. Also Thorpe was very solid. The problem
with him was he was a one year rental that did not want to stick around.


Hindsight proves it, but plenty of people argued the same at the time of the trade, myself included. General NBA trading guidelines: 1) don't trade younger for older; 2) don't trade big for small; 3) don't trade one greater for two lesser. Sure there are exceptions to all those guidelines, but that trade didn't have exception written all over it. Many thought at the time the Wizards could have gotten more for a still-young former #1 pick PF who'd averaged about 20 ppg and 10 rpg the previous two seasons.

I also recall at the time Unseld's comment and Webber's response. Webber generally projected an impolitic lack of contrition; especially considering other reports alleging drug use and assorted hijinks. Pollin never liked that kind of stuff, and it was his team. He had every right to dump Webber in the face of such behavior; I just wished he could have gotten more (maybe by being a little more patient, as someone asserted above).

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