RealGM

Continuation from "Official Trade Thread X"...
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=965659

Can you post the links to all the previous trade threads for posterity?

From all the chatter, I think that it might well not be necessary to take back Dalembert in a Iggy deal; it's sounding like most folks think Iggy's deal is too much on it's own and the Sixers woeful record doesn't have his stock a high watermark (ya' know, if he's so good, then why can't you win more games). He's paid $17 Million in the last year of the deal.

So, expirings and....I'm thinking at this point that taking back Kapono or Willie Green might well be enough to get it done. Say, throw in a second round pick. Kapono has an option next year for $6 Million.

That's where I stand Hoopalotta, Iggy makes way too much money for the type of player he is. He's basically a slightly more athletic crash, but nowhere near the franchise player he's getting paid as.

Deal Jamison and Butler for expirings, and see if you can get somebody to bite on Haywood.

I'd like to see Wood back, but unless we break the bank I don't see it happening, and I doubt he'd be back for equal money. I'm fairly convinced he'll be with Thunder and do well getting them closer to championship contention.

Hoopalotta wrote:From all the chatter, I think that it might well not be necessary to take back Dalembert in a Iggy deal; it's sounding like most folks think Iggy's deal is too much on it's own and the Sixers woeful record doesn't have his stock a high watermark (ya' know, if he's so good, then why can't you win more games). He's paid $17 Million in the last year of the deal.

So, expirings and....I'm thinking at this point that taking back Kapono or Willie Green might well be enough to get it done. Say, throw in a second round pick. Kapono has an option next year for $6 Million.

I think it makes more sense for both teams for us to include Butler in the trade. Butler is a guy who has worked very well in EJ's system before, and he has a 2011 contract that will expire alongside Dalembert and Kapono.

Philly has a little luxtax cushion this year, so it would make sense for us to give them some surplus salary in 2010, and in return we take on some of their 2011 salary. How about:

Washington trades: Butler + James + Oberto
Philly trades: Iggy + W.Green

We save $2.4M instantly (which gets us nearly out of the luxtax if Arenas is suspended for the season). They save $5.7M next year. On the court, in their system, Butler is arguably a better player than Iggy. It's a win-win.

If we trade Jamison + Stevenson for Z and Powe, we'd be in pretty good shape next year. If we then dump Arenas for 2011 contracts, we could set ourselves up for a total makeover in 2011 with just Iggy, Blatche, McGee and our 2010 lotto pick on the payroll (that's about $21M in total salary). Either that, or we go ahead a resign Haywood, Foye and Miller to 4-year deals (which end when Iggy's contract ends) and go with:

PG Arenas/Foye
SG Miller/Foye
SF Iggy
PF Blatche/Powe/2010 lotto pick?
C Haywood/McGee

Caron Butler & Andray Blatche

Considering these are two of our more favorable contracts, I'd start shopping this pair around the league as a package deal. If Butler won't bring us back a core piece, maybe adding a cheap, young & relatively productive PF/C provides the right sweetner. You gotta admit both would do well from a change of scenery. I'm no longer opposed to dealing Blatche. I'm not against keeping him either. But his attitude & softness just turns me off. I think his most recent episode especially did it for me.

Antawn Jamison

Please, please, please! It's time to let him go. Give him to Cleveland, I don't care. If they are willing to take DeBrick's contract and give us Powe, I'm all for it. Mr. Empty numbers. Great stats, not so many wins. More importantly moving him for an expiring gives us cap flexibility.

Gilbert Arenas

I hope we keep him. Because any of the other options are incredibly disadvantageous for us. Trying to void his contract would be an ugly ordeal, period. One which would likely end in failure and make the Wizards as the absolute destination for free agents to avoid. Buying him out could potentially have 15-20% of our annual cap room as dead cap space for the next 4 years. While trading him would mean taking both horrible contracts and dealing for far inferior talent.

Brendan Haywood & Mike Miller

I love big Wood but I think he's got one foot out the door. Miller is a fine role player and glue guy. Every team would love two guys like this on their roster but with both entering FA, on the wrong side of 30 and the Wiz in rebuild mode its time to cash in on two prime expiring contracts. Pau Gasol was acquired for less. Of course we can't expect that but getting an expiring and a mid-1st rd pick or decent young player on his rookie deal would be ideal. Either or both could be added in as sweetners to something bigger.

Randy Foye

I may be in the minority, but I don't see him as a key building block. He's a decent scoring option on a losing team right now. He's not a PG or an SG. Your always going to want to upgrade the position if you got Foye starting. He's kinda like our version of Delonte West, without LeBron of course. West was a journeyman before landing in Cleveland. Some people are making Chauncey Billups comparisons but I'm thinking more like Derrick Fisher. And again without Kobe.

Unfortunately Foye hasn't shown himself well as a reserve. He'd make an ideal 3rd guard with his skillset and productivity but he's horrible unless he's getting 30+ minutes a night and is able to dominate the ball while he's out there. I'm not against exercising his option and bringing him back for one more year but I'm not against seeing him included in a deal as a sweetner either. And definitely I would not give him a long term contract. Yes, Foye is an decent player. I'd say he's pretty average. And my favorite saying is, you don't build a roster of average players with average contracts, because you'll likely be average, or worse.

Nick Young

Throw-in, filler, sweetner, whatever. I don't care. I have no hope for him long term. His only asset is that he's on a rookie contract so he's semi-functional as a cheap backup.

Javale McGee

The only guy I'd be opposed to trading. I just hope he gets a real shot to play as we enter to the John Wall sweepstakes in the coming weeks. I'm also suspect of how good the Wizards are at player development, especially considering how EG & ETap handled last season. McGee needs a chance at steady minutes without thinking he's going to get pulled for every mistake. That has yet to occur in the regular season. The one positive I can say about EJ, he didn't hesitate to start McGee and give him minutes. His development has been stunted since EJ left and those minutes dissapeared.

While I agree with most of your assessments, Dat2U, I think it would be unwise to just jettison all of our vets at once. We are not in position to be credible players in free agency, so there's no real advantage to having a $30M payroll versus a $50M payroll. I'd try to keep one, both, or all 3 of Haywood, Miller and Foye if possible. I would even overpay for Haywood (though I wouldn't overpay for Miller or Foye).

I agree that Blatche is tradable because of his softness, though he has value so I wouldn't just give him away.

I agree that Young is flawed. He's fine as cheap depth, but I have little hope for him ever to "break out". If shooting guards don't figure things out by Year 3, they never do.

My only real disagreement is with Arenas. I think he has to go. I don't think a team can be a consistent winner with his horrible defense at the point of attack and his quick shots early in the shot clock. A team with Arenas is always going to be wildly insconsistent - capable of beating anybody on a given night, and capable of losing to anybody. I'm also disappointed with his affect on team chemistry. The "class clown" act is old. He clearly pushed Crittenton too far with his hazing, and he still doesn't seem to take anything seriously. Arenas plays hard on the court, but for the wrong reasons. He is always trying to prove himself on an individual level, rather than trying to win games for the team.

That said, I agree that we shouldn't look to jettison Arenas at any cost. I'd keep him as long as the trade offers are crappy, but the moment somebody offers expiring contracts for him, I'd pull the trigger.

nate33 wrote:

Hoopalotta wrote:From all the chatter, I think that it might well not be necessary to take back Dalembert in a Iggy deal; it's sounding like most folks think Iggy's deal is too much on it's own and the Sixers woeful record doesn't have his stock a high watermark (ya' know, if he's so good, then why can't you win more games). He's paid $17 Million in the last year of the deal.

So, expirings and....I'm thinking at this point that taking back Kapono or Willie Green might well be enough to get it done. Say, throw in a second round pick. Kapono has an option next year for $6 Million.

I think it makes more sense for both teams for us to include Butler in the trade. Butler is a guy who has worked very well in EJ's system before, and he has a 2011 contract that will expire alongside Dalembert and Kapono.

Philly has a little luxtax cushion this year, so it would make sense for us to give them some surplus salary in 2010, and in return we take on some of their 2011 salary. How about:

Washington trades: Butler + James + Oberto
Philly trades: Iggy + W.Green

I'd rather just simply do Butler+DeBrick for Iguodala. It's salary neutral for both teams but gives each what they lack (defense for Washington and offense for Philly). At that point I'd actually expect Grunfeld to hold onto Jamison and make a run at the playoffs. Then they can worry about the future of the cap over the summer.

I don't see anyone - with the possible exception of NY - and only after they exhaust better alternatives - taking on Gil's contract. And I don't like the idea of buying him out for many millions of dollars. So, I think the best thing for all - assuming the judge is lenient on 3/26 - is to make peace and hope that this was a life-changing event for Gil. On the court, he was getting it the last few games. Flip finally told him no more stupid 3's at the beginning of a possession, and after that - I didn't see any. And Gil playing smart is someone you can win with, imo - as long as we have complementary players and effective coaching. Add a Wesley Johnson. Add an Ed Davis. Add a defensive-minded guard with 3 point range.

LyricalRico wrote:I'd rather just simply do Butler+DeBrick for Iguodala. It's salary neutral for both teams but gives each what they lack (defense for Washington and offense for Philly). At that point I'd actually expect Grunfeld to hold onto Jamison and make a run at the playoffs. Then they can worry about the future of the cap over the summer.

I'd do that too. I was just trying to creatively make the deal better for both sides by maximizing the amount of luxtax dollars saved. If we start off with a salary-neutral trade, it makes sense to then increase the savings for Washington this season, while offsetting Philly's costs by saving them money next year.

nate33 wrote:While I agree with most of your assessments, Dat2U, I think it would be unwise to just jettison all of our vets at once. We are not in position to be credible players in free agency, so there's no real advantage to having a $30M payroll versus a $50M payroll. I'd try to keep one, both, or all 3 of Haywood, Miller and Foye if possible. I would even overpay for Haywood (though I wouldn't overpay for Miller or Foye).

Precisely. Haywood is a crucial figure in establishing a new identity for this team. I wouldn't trade him unless I'm blown away, and I'd overpay to keep him. Haywood wants to get paid and we can pay him (especially if we trade Jamison and Butler). I'm sure there are going to be some dummies out there who think that Haywood's just having a career year and will tank once he signs his deal. But aside from his rebounding, he's basically producing at the same rate as he has in the past, but he's just playing the minutes he deserves.

Miller's another guy I really want to keep; he plays the right way and I think if he had no choice but to be more assertive on offense he could produce more. I would be cautious about overpaying him, but I wouldn't give him away at the deadline and blow my shot at keeping him. OTOH, I think he's more of a flight risk to sign with a contender than Haywood, but I still have a sneaking suspicion we could keep him.

I don't see FOye signing a big offer sheet anywhere and think we could keep him for pretty cheap, so I wouldn't rush to trade him either. If we can include him in a deal that brings back a building block, then OK.

I agree that Blatche is tradable because of his softness, though he has value so I wouldn't just give him away.

I think if you put Blatche at the 4 for 30 minutes a night next to Haywood, the Wiz can be pretty good. He's too talented, too young, too cheap, and has shown too much improvement for him to trade him for anything less than a sure thing.

I agree that Young is flawed. He's fine as cheap depth, but I have little hope for him ever to "break out". If shooting guards don't figure things out by Year 3, they never do.

My only real disagreement is with Arenas. I think he has to go. I don't think a team can be a consistent winner with his horrible defense at the point of attack and his quick shots early in the shot clock. A team with Arenas is always going to be wildly insconsistent - capable of beating anybody on a given night, and capable of losing to anybody. I'm also disappointed with his affect on team chemistry. The "class clown" act is old. He clearly pushed Crittenton too far with his hazing, and he still doesn't seem to take anything seriously. Arenas plays hard on the court, but for the wrong reasons. He is always trying to prove himself on an individual level, rather than trying to win games for the team.

That said, I agree that we shouldn't look to jettison Arenas at any cost. I'd keep him as long as the trade offers are crappy, but the moment somebody offers expiring contracts for him, I'd pull the trigger.

Agreed. The fact that this organization sucks shouldn't obscure the fact that it's time to move on from Gil. He's never going to win anything, much as it pains me to say it. In fact, the org's amazingly suckiness is what led them to signing Gil to that ridiculous deal in the first place. I wouldn't be opposed to Tinsleying him when he's re-instated just b/c I think he'd be disruptive (again, much as it pains me to say).

nate33 wrote:While I agree with most of your assessments, Dat2U, I think it would be unwise to just jettison all of our vets at once. We are not in position to be credible players in free agency, so there's no real advantage to having a $30M payroll versus a $50M payroll. I'd try to keep one, both, or all 3 of Haywood, Miller and Foye if possible. I would even overpay for Haywood (though I wouldn't overpay for Miller or Foye).

I agree that Blatche is tradable because of his softness, though he has value so I wouldn't just give him away.

I agree that Young is flawed. He's fine as cheap depth, but I have little hope for him ever to "break out". If shooting guards don't figure things out by Year 3, they never do.

My only real disagreement is with Arenas. I think he has to go. I don't think a team can be a consistent winner with his horrible defense at the point of attack and his quick shots early in the shot clock. A team with Arenas is always going to be wildly insconsistent - capable of beating anybody on a given night, and capable of losing to anybody. I'm also disappointed with his affect on team chemistry. The "class clown" act is old. He clearly pushed Crittenton too far with his hazing, and he still doesn't seem to take anything seriously. Arenas plays hard on the court, but for the wrong reasons. He is always trying to prove himself on an individual level, rather than trying to win games for the team.

That said, I agree that we shouldn't look to jettison Arenas at any cost. I'd keep him as long as the trade offers are crappy, but the moment somebody offers expiring contracts for him, I'd pull the trigger.

I agree with everything Nate said except for possibly overpaying Haywood. I love how Haywood has played this season. However, he is the type of person that I can see slacking off a bit once he gets his contract. I have no doubt that part of the reason Haywood has been a monster this season is he sees a chance to earn some $$$$.

dandridge 10 wrote:

nate33 wrote:While I agree with most of your assessments, Dat2U, I think it would be unwise to just jettison all of our vets at once. We are not in position to be credible players in free agency, so there's no real advantage to having a $30M payroll versus a $50M payroll. I'd try to keep one, both, or all 3 of Haywood, Miller and Foye if possible. I would even overpay for Haywood (though I wouldn't overpay for Miller or Foye).

I agree that Blatche is tradable because of his softness, though he has value so I wouldn't just give him away.

I agree that Young is flawed. He's fine as cheap depth, but I have little hope for him ever to "break out". If shooting guards don't figure things out by Year 3, they never do.

My only real disagreement is with Arenas. I think he has to go. I don't think a team can be a consistent winner with his horrible defense at the point of attack and his quick shots early in the shot clock. A team with Arenas is always going to be wildly insconsistent - capable of beating anybody on a given night, and capable of losing to anybody. I'm also disappointed with his affect on team chemistry. The "class clown" act is old. He clearly pushed Crittenton too far with his hazing, and he still doesn't seem to take anything seriously. Arenas plays hard on the court, but for the wrong reasons. He is always trying to prove himself on an individual level, rather than trying to win games for the team.

That said, I agree that we shouldn't look to jettison Arenas at any cost. I'd keep him as long as the trade offers are crappy, but the moment somebody offers expiring contracts for him, I'd pull the trigger.

I agree with everything Nate said except for possibly overpaying Haywood. I love how Haywood has played this season. However, he is the type of person that I can see slacking off a bit once he gets his contract. I have no doubt that part of the reason Haywood has been a monster this season is he sees a chance to earn some $$$$.

Your eyes deceive you, my good friend. Haywood isn't playing any harder or better this year than he is in the past, with the exception of an uptick in rebounding. He's just playing more (finally).
In fact, Haywood's PER and TS% are both lower this year than they were in 04-05 and 07-08.

What we're seeing this year is just Brendan being Brendan. (http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... obr01.html)

What I'd love to see -- especially because Brendan is a smart enough dude and can grasp the concept of the time value of money -- is the Wiz sign him to a front loaded, declining deal. Hell, give him ten or eleven million next year, just have annual step-downs. a $40 deal start starts at $11M and declines for 3 years is worth more to Brendan than one that starts at $8M and increases.

fishercob wrote:What I'd love to see -- especially because Brendan is a smart enough dude and can grasp the concept of the time value of money -- is the Wiz sign him to a front loaded, declining deal. Hell, give him ten or eleven million next year, just have annual step-downs. a $40 deal start starts at $11M and declines for 3 years is worth more to Brendan than one that starts at $8M and increases.

As long as they can stay out of the luxury tax, that arrangement benefits the Wizards as well. A solid 32 year old Center making 9 million is worth a lot more(to the Wizards and as trade bait) than one making 11 and owed 12 the next year.

fishercob wrote:Your eyes deceive you, my good friend. Haywood isn't playing any harder or better this year than he is in the past, with the exception of an uptick in rebounding. He's just playing more (finally).
In fact, Haywood's PER and TS% are both lower this year than they were in 04-05 and 07-08.

What we're seeing this year is just Brendan being Brendan. (http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... obr01.html)

I pretty much agree. Though it's worth noting that Haywood has cut back his foul rate and improved his conditioning a bit over the past 3 years. I don't think the 2004/05 Haywood could have played 34 minutes a night and maintained quite the same level of effectiveness.

I sincerely believe that Haywood would continue to play well even after signing a big contract. Haywood is a pro. The only thing that causes his intensity to wane is when the coach doesn't respect his contributions on the court. Just give Haywood a little acknowlegement and positive reinforcment every now and then, and he'll play hard every night.

Give us Jamison! Do it! DO IT!

In all seriousness, yeah, do it!

Get Ferry to step up what he's offering. He's clearly not bowling Ernie over, or a deal would be done by now. You gotta give something to get something -- step up to the plate and offer multiple picks or be creative and get a third team involved and get them to do so.

fishercob wrote:Get Ferry to step up what he's offering. He's clearly not bowling Ernie over, or a deal would be done by now. You gotta give something to get something -- step up to the plate and offer multiple picks or be creative and get a third team involved and get them to do so.

Well, I think a deal not being done now is a combo of Ferry being cheap and EG asking for too much. It's basic negotiation.

I think EG wants Hickson, Z, first, and to dump Stevenson. I think Ferry probably offered Z for Jamison. I think they'll ultimately settle on Z, 1st, Cash for Jamison if it happens.

InBoobieWeTrust wrote:

fishercob wrote:Get Ferry to step up what he's offering. He's clearly not bowling Ernie over, or a deal would be done by now. You gotta give something to get something -- step up to the plate and offer multiple picks or be creative and get a third team involved and get them to do so.

Well, I think a deal not being done now is a combo of Ferry being cheap and EG asking for too much. It's basic negotiation.

I think EG wants Hickson, Z, first, and to dump Stevenson. I think Ferry probably offered Z for Jamison. I think they'll ultimately settle on Z, 1st, Cash for Jamison if it happens.

I can see this ending horribly for both teams.

Neither one wanting to budge, expecting the other team to "cave" because they need Player X more than the other team needs Player Y.

Can you say lose/lose?

fishercob wrote:Miller's another guy I really want to keep; he plays the right way and I think if he had no choice but to be more assertive on offense he could produce more.

Fish, I agreed with most of your post but this is one point that I think is incorrect. Miller had the best chance in his career to be more assertive on offense in Minnesota, when there was no one other than Al Jefferson to score effectively. And what did he do? Exactly what he's done in Washington - over-pass.

It's just in his nature. It's who he is and what he does. DNA and all of that.

Not that I dislike the guy or would be particularly against re-signing him if the price is extremely reasonable. But I would never expect anything other than what we're seeing right now. He won't change.