Knicks Fan Looking for Feedback from Wizard Fans

[lowermerionfilms]

NOTE TO MODS: I know this is a trade proposal, but I'm a Knicks fan looking for specfic criticism from your fan base, so I hope you'll let this thread stand alone for a bit before you merge it into another folder.

NOTE TO WIZ FANS: If you don't like what I've got here, rather than just flame me, please let me know what element is missing from the trade that would make it more palatable to you.

As y'all have read, the Knicks, Wiz and Rockets are discussing a three team trade right now. I'd really like to see this trade work out (for reasons I'll explain in a moment), but I've been racking my brain and can't really find a trade I'm sure all three sides would like. In every version of the trade, it's the Wizards I feel like I can't make happy. Maybe that's because I LOVE Caron Butler and would never want to trade him if he was on the Knicks. It seems, however, that the Wiz are willing to part with him, so this trade represents the best I could come up with, and it assumes 3 absolutes:

1. NO ONE wants Jared Jeffries
2. The Knicks are not trading Jordan Hill or Wilson Chandler until the summer, if at all.
3. Houston needs to maintain their cap flexibility this summer.

With those things in mind, this is what I came up with:

KNICKS
Trade: Al Harrington, Cutino Mobley, Chris Duhon, Nate Robinson, $3 million
Receive: Tracy McGrady, Mike James, Kyle Lowry, 2nd Round Picks from WAS & HOU

ROCKETS
Trade: McGrady, Lowry, 2nd round pick
Receive: Caron Butler, Brendan Haywood, Duhon

WIZARDS
Trade: Butler, Haywood, James, 2nd Round Pick
Receive: Harrington, Mobley, Robinson, $3 million

WHY FOR NY?
The Knicks have a glut of players in the frontcourt. Losing Harrington opens up minutes for Gallinari and Hill and lets Chandler play more minutes at the 3 (currently he spends a lot of time at SG). The Knicks have two point guards they hate. This deal lets them look at two other PGs who can both be dropped at season's end if they don't work out. The 2 2nd round picks help the team put two cheap guys on the end of the bench next season, which will be a big help since they'll be spending most of their cap on just 4 players (Curry, Jeffries, and their 3 FA signings)

WHY FOR HOU?
They get two quality rotation players in exchange for McGrady, who's done nothing and is a pain in their ass, and Lowry, who's never gonna get on the court when they have Aaron Brooks. Duhon is a servicable veteran who can play the 10-15 minutes a night Brooks needs to rest. The 2nd round pick is a throw-in.

WHY FOR WASH
This is the tough part of the trade for me. I couldn't find a better offer for them, and I imagine this fan base would be the ones most against this trade. The upside for them in this trade is cap relief and huge savings. Mobley's contract is insured, they don't have to pay Butler next season, they get $3 million from the Knicks, and they get a cheap look at Nate Robinson to see if he has a future with the team. In the short term, he's a better substitue for Arenas than anyone they currently have on their roster. Also,they send constant headache Mike James packing.

[yungal07]

Wizards say no. I don't care about the cap savings. We need legitimate talent in return for Butler & Haywood -- not a bunch of junk.

[Depressio]

You're undervaluing Kyle Lowry here. He's the most important bench player for Houston and they won't be giving him up as a toss-in. I think the Rockets would be more willing to part with the young talented rookie Chase Budinger than Kyle Lowry, honestly. He's a lot better than Duhon is.

I cannot see why the Wizards would do this, either. They aren't getting any long-term value other than the savings for losing Butler's contract, but they lose Butler, too (whose contract isn't that bad). Yeah, they get some insurance savings from Mobley and Bird Rights to Harrington, but overall, it's not an intriguing package.

This trade looks much too skewed for the Knicks' benefit. The Knicks want McGrady the player, not just the contract (that's why Walsh has been watching his workouts so often), so there is value in that alone. They'd lose what they don't want (Robinson, Harrington, Duhon) and we what they want (McGrady) and then some (draft picks). It's too skewed.

[lowermerionfilms]

[quote="Depressio"]You're undervaluing Kyle Lowry here. He's the most important bench player for Houston and they won't be giving him up as a toss-in. quote]

Yeah, I see your point. This is why I'm wondering if this deal has any legs. One thing I will say is that I don't see how Lowry fits into Houston's long-term plans. He's a good player, but Brooks is their PG of the future, and the Rockets won't match the offer Lowry receives this summer on the open market. They may as well dump him now for help down the road. I do think the Wizards get some value with Robinson, who replaces a lot of what they got from Arenas and might be a nice addition to their roster if they'd like to resign him after the season.

[Mr. Grundle]

Make it so we give you our 1st round pick instead of our 2nd and we can talk. I don't know how else we can find a way to dump our two most valuable trade assets for pure salary relief if we don't sweeten the pot just a little more.

[Depressio]

One thing I will say is that I don't see how Lowry fits into Houston's long-term plans. He's a good player, but Brooks is their PG of the future, and the Rockets won't match the offer Lowry receives this summer on the open market. They may as well dump him now for help down the road. I do think the Wizards get some value with Robinson, who replaces a lot of what they got from Arenas and might be a nice addition to their roster if they'd like to resign him after the season.

I'm a Rockets fan, so I'm going to have to correct you here.

Lowry is HIGHLY valued by the Rockets as a back-up. Also, I'm not sure you're aware since you may not also be a Rockets fan, Houston often plays with both Brooks and Lowry at the same time and it's really very effective against smaller line-ups. Lowry's value is on his keen ability to draw fouls and push the pace. There are statistics out there that say he's the biggest change of pace player in the NBA and in the top 5 at drawing fouls. Not only that, but his chemsitry with the rest of the bench (Budinger, Landry) is well documented. Check this out:

Code: Select all

              On      Off    Net
Brooks       +4.7    -2.8   +7.5
Ariza        +1.1    -2.5   +3.6
Battier      +3.7    -2.9   +6.6
Scola        -2.3    -1.1   -1.1
Hayes        +5.1    -0.1   +5.3
Landry       +5.9   -12.0  +18.0
Budinger    +10.2   -13.3  +23.5
Andersen     +8.1   -22.1  +30.2

And for further validation of the above, consider Carl Landry's +/- numbers the last 5 games.

PHX: -9 (Lowry out)
GSW: -6 (Lowry out),
@MEM: +15 (Lowry available)
PHI: +7, but -14 in second half (Lowry available 1st half, out second half)
MIA: -12 (Lowry out)

Believe me, unless Lowry gets a large offer of over the MLE, the Rockets will be matching it. I don't think many other teams see him as a more valuable player than the Rockets do.

Anyway, this isn't really about Lowry.

[Ruzious]

Re lower's trade - It would be much more beneficial for the Wiz to leave the door open to keep Haywood than to make room for a 5'8 shooting guard. We're talking about saving 1 year on Butler's contract - which is not even a huge amount. And we don't benefit by putting in James' expiring in there. At least, work in Stevenson in the deal and get us a pick. That trade actually has us throwing in a 2nd... that's flameworthy.

[BanndNDC]

i understand that houston and new york fans dont want to give up anything whatsoever but we're not exactly desperate to trade butler and haywood. butler is on a reasonable contract and has one year left. haywood we would like to resign though doubt it's going to happen. since he's an expiring we need something to give up our 10% chance of resigning him or flexibility to sign and trade (he'll probably get more than the MLE so that ability has some value).

in short, we need lowery or hill + either a 1st round pick or close to $5m in savings this year.

[verbal8]

In that deal the Rockets would be better off dealing TMac to the Wizards directly. True they don't want to take back Mike James, but I am sure they could use the second rounder to entice some other team to take him.

[no D in Hibachi]

NOTE TO MODS: I know this is a trade proposal

KNICKS
Trade: Al Harrington, Cutino Mobley, Chris Duhon, Nate Robinson, $3 million
Receive: Tracy McGrady, Mike James, Kyle Lowry, 2nd Round Picks from WAS & HOU

ROCKETS
Trade: McGrady, Lowry, 2nd round pick
Receive: Caron Butler, Brendan Haywood, Duhon

WIZARDS
Trade: Butler, Haywood, James, 2nd Round Pick
Receive: Harrington, Mobley, Robinson, $3 million

we have a thread for this.

[spaceman_E]

You're undervaluing Kyle Lowry here. He's the most important bench player for Houston and they won't be giving him up as a toss-in. I think the Rockets would be more willing to part with the young talented rookie Chase Budinger than Kyle Lowry, honestly. He's a lot better than Duhon is.

WHAT WERE YOU THINKING, OP! HOW DARE YOU MAKE THE ROCKETS GIVE UP A BACKUP PG IN ORDER TO GAIN 2 STARTERS!!! TRACY MCGRADY ONCE SCORED 32 POINTS IN 1 GAME, HE IS THE FUTURE OF THE LEAGUE!!!

[mohammed10]

WHAT WERE YOU THINKING, OP! HOW DARE YOU MAKE THE ROCKETS GIVE UP A BACKUP PG IN ORDER TO GAIN 2 STARTERS!!! TRACY MCGRADY ONCE SCORED 32 POINTS IN 1 GAME, HE IS THE FUTURE OF THE LEAGUE!!!

[Wizards2Lottery]

We might as well trade our entire roster for a bag of doritos. Sadly, the Net's will still manage to out tank us.

[pancakes3]

The Knicks have a glut of players in the frontcourt.

hah. in the quagmire of things i found wrong with your trade proposal, this stuck out the most. are you referring to eddy curry, darko milicic, and marcus landry as your "glut" ?

other things that i found offensive:
-contending that kyle lowry makes up for the fact that despite dumping TMac's contract AND getting Butler/Haywood. oh no. they lose their 6'0 backup point guard who's barely shooting .400 on the season. we lost our 6'3 backup pg who can barely shoot .400 to injuries and gun charges and got diddly. where's our happy meal toy?

-offering us Al Harrington. that's just ridiculous. a soft PF tweener to pair up with our existing soft PF tweener? do you also sell timeshare? how about encyclopedias?

-openly admitting that you could come up with no reason why the wizards would entertain this trade and still creating a thread for it. it just seems discourteous. In essence you're paying us 6 million dollars to give Houston butler, give NYK our 2nd rounder, and not resign Haywood. Paying us 6 mil to go from the 4th worst team in the NBA this year to contend for THE worst team next year.

just... just lock this. please.

[montestewart]

The Knicks have a glut of players in the frontcourt.

hah. in the quagmire of things i found wrong with your trade proposal, this stuck out the most. are you referring to eddy curry, darko milicic, and marcus landry as your "glut" ?

other things that i found offensive:
-contending that kyle lowry makes up for the fact that despite dumping TMac's contract AND getting Butler/Haywood. oh no. they lose their 6'0 backup point guard who's barely shooting .400 on the season. we lost our 6'3 backup pg who can barely shoot .400 to injuries and gun charges and got diddly. where's our happy meal toy?

-offering us Al Harrington. that's just ridiculous. a soft PF tweener to pair up with our existing soft PF tweener? do you also sell timeshare? how about encyclopedias?

-openly admitting that you could come up with no reason why the wizards would entertain this trade and still creating a thread for it. it just seems discourteous. In essence you're paying us 6 million dollars to give Houston butler, give NYK our 2nd rounder, and not resign Haywood. Paying us 6 mil to go from the 4th worst team in the NBA this year to contend for THE worst team next year.

just... just lock this. please.

Yeah. merge into the trade thread . . . but as long as it's here . . .

Lowry's a bit better than Crittendon.

In this deal, the Wizards take on more salary against the cap this year, which the $3 million offsets (including the tax). I don't know exactly what the insurance payment on Mobley would be, but without it, it's a salary neutral deal (this year, and Butler's additional year has positive value) that trades two good Wizards starters and a high 2nd round draft pick for expirings of players that shouldn't be part of the Wizards future.

It's not a good deal for the Wizards. Hopefully the OP can see why I would rather keep Butler and try to resign Haywood, unless there is some combination of significant savings, prospects, or picks coming back.

Now that this independent thread has gotten attention, time to merge it.