NCAA versus german players ... (eligibility topic)

[wilt]

Again a young german prospect (Robin Benzing, would go to Michigan) has been denied eligibility to play in the NCAA, after the same happened last season to Fabian Boeke (Washington State) and Lucca Staiger (Iowa State).

The "reason" for this has apparently been again that Benzing had played for a team where a couple players received money, not himself i might add. Which was the same reasoning for the other 2.

This is just completely ignorant by the NCAA. Those guys don´t receive money, they go to school and everything ... It´s just how it is in international play, you don´t play for some school-teams or whatever. That´s just not how the system is set up in Germany and the rest of Europe with very few exceptions. And even if you basically do they don´t care and find sth to bitch about ... (Lucca Staiger´s former team was at an boarding-school programme ...) .

I mean, what is the NCAA thinking ? I mean, here you have a couple guys that want to go to school rather than sign pro contracts (and especially Staiger and Benzing could have) and then you deny them ?

[jman3134]

What else is new? They are very stringent on guys not receiving money....still, maybe there was more to the story than we know?

But yeah, I agree that you cannot fault a guy for where he is from and the system that is established there. I guess with Jennings and others threatening to take money, they are deciding to be extra restrictive.

[wilt]

nope, there really isn´t more to the story. It was plain and simple that they (Staiger and Boeke) were deemed ineligible because the NCAA stated that they played on a professional team. 2 teammates of them got paid to play for their team, which is what the german rule allows for a non-profit team. And "paid" is a relative term really, they didn´t save money for later there ...
They themselves did not receive any money or had a contract and were at best comparable to being on a prep school in the US.


And i know it hasn´t got anything to do with them personally but that that is the rule. But in modern days with globalisation the NCAA should be able to adjust the rules for international standards. Right now that rule is bull ...
In germany you just can´t play competitive basketball on 100% non-profit teams. There aren´t any possibilities to play at a high level on non-profit teams.

That Team of Staiger actually was as close as it gets really, short version :

They are a real school assembling great german talents giving them an education in a normal school (there aren´t just basketball people, also regular students from the region) and having them improve at basketball at the same time at the same place (sound familiar, right ?).

So they are assembling some of the best Under 18 talents from all over Germany in kind of an "experiment" to help improve german basketball by getting them playing time in the 2nd strongest league in germany at a very young age playing against professional teams. But at some point they had to get a couple paid players so that they wouldn´t be relegated to a lesser league and did so not because of revenue but to give the young kids the chance to play at the highest possible level ...

I´m sorry, but most American Prep Schools (or heck, any AAU team does ...) work on bigger budgets than those german team does and a scholarship is propably worth more than what the 2 "professionals" got in cash.

Sorry about the rant, i´m just sick about all this "oh, but we need to have theese kids be pure and unchanged, it is so evil to be get money to those kids" crap the NCAA is pulling, especially in that extent where the guys punished didn´t even make any money ... Honestly, if they are so concerned about the bad, bad things in "being pro" than they shouldn´t put those pure kids on national television making hundreds of millions off of them ...

More about last years process at : http://www.freelucca.com/

With Benzing it is the same situation basically.

[BRENDANhAYWOODFAN]

I was really looking forward to seeing Benzing at Michigan. Is there a possibility that he can play later on in the NCAA? I thought Staiger is playing in ISU for 08-09

[wilt]

Staiger will play, he stayed at ISU and practiced with the team. W
hich goes to show you theese Kids do everything "right" and would be an ideal type of guys for the NCAA to market and show as a positive example of them.
With Staiger especially (Benzing to a lesser degree as he´s not as developed) you have a guy that could play pro-ball and earn pretty decent money pretty soon for a good german team and yet he chooses to go to the United States to get an education in their system while collecting life-experience leaving his known comfortzone in Germany instead of going for the money ...
And seeing he actually was willing to wait a year to play (and make no mistake, he´ll be a professional basketball player in Europe) you know he´s serious about his plan. How cool is that if i am the NCAA and have massive problems to uphold a high reputation as the way of combining sports and education worldwide ?
So the NCAA really blew this one on so many level ...

Haven´t really heard anything new about Benzing, hasn´t commited to anything yet. But if its true what Beilein is quoted with than i´d say it is unlikely he´ll set foot into the NCAA, as that quotes refer to him being "short of eligibility to receive a scholarship from any Division I university" (while Staiger just lost a year of eligibility but did enroll on a basetball scholarship) and i wouldn´t expect a young german kid to pay quite a lot of money to go over and then not play.
And if he stays in Europe there´s no way he is eligible next year. If he wasn´t this time arround he´d have to basically quit on competitive Basketball to improve upon his "resumee" in that matter, while actually being offered real professional contracts.
So chances seem slim to none in my opinion. Which is not based on facts, as there´s zero coverage on Basketball on this level in German media

I´ll keep tabs on it, if he signs a contract that might get actually reported

[Marcy]

staiger played in urspring and ehingen, he never got any money for playing afaik
i'm really excited to see him play, i played against him here in germany he's really good...

[dacher]

If that's true, that's really unfair rule. Elite level golf players play as "amateur" in pro-golf tournaments all the time and retain their NCAA amateur status. And I believe it is the same with tennis players. Tiger woods was clearly a PGA pro-level golfer who had played as an amateur in pro tournaments before he played for Stanford U as an NCAA collegian.

And what's wrong with getting some money? Should we work for free or entertain for free when people are willing and do pay to watch (NCAA tickets don't come free)? That sounds both stupid and un-American. Even the olympics -- the old ultimate barometer of the amateur athlete ideal -- lets pros in. Though, I've never read the ancient greek athletes weren't paid. I don't see the olympics being damaged or ruined by "pros." The NCAA should get with the times and face the fact they are pro athletic training institutes as they are academic institutes, and stop jerking around young athletes with their archaic mentality and rulings.

The whole amateur purity concept -- are throwbacks like premarital virgin purity or some hippie/anarchy concept of living on communes without money. Well, athletes have to make a living too, and pay for coaches, facilities, equipment.

But we allways knew NCAA was self-righteous pretentious monopoly full of shyt.

[ISB]

same deal happened with the Turkish PG Dogus Balbay who is going to Texas, although for him the NCAA is only doing a 10 game suspension. Texas is trying to argue that Balbay, who missed all of last season with an injury, was actually healthy for the 2nd half of the season and thus get last year's games to count for the suspension, since he probably won't be around for a full four more years anyway.

I'm not sure what the status of the appeal is. He has as good chance to join the growing group of Texas PGs in the NBA soon (TJ Ford, Royal Ivey, Daniel Gibson, DJ Augustin.)

[boshjonesford]

staiger played in urspring and ehingen, he never got any money for playing afaik
i'm really excited to see him play, i played against him here in germany he's really good...

+1

[JN]

This is just not a basketball thing. In Canada, hockey players who want to go the NCAA route, have to play on lower level junior hockey teams, since major junior hockey teams pay there players about $100 a week.

[Atlanta Hawk Fan]

I am not surprised by any rule the NCAA issues regarding eligibility. They are a mess -- not that it is an easy task but they violate common sense so often it hurts.

I see a difference, personally, between people in Canada who actually do receive pay for playing (that they could presumably waive if they wanted to be like the Europeeans) and people who aren't paid but who play teammates who are paid.

If I were in charge of the NCAA, the simplest resolution would be looking at whether the individual was paid or not. It certainly works out in practice to close the borders against people who play through the normal channels in their country and who do not accept any payment for playing. One would think that was a bad thing...the NCAA doesn't (cue lack of surprise).

[JN]

I am not surprised by any rule the NCAA issues regarding eligibility. They are a mess -- not that it is an easy task but they violate common sense so often it hurts.

I see a difference, personally, between people in Canada who actually do receive pay for playing (that they could presumably waive if they wanted to be like the Europeeans) and people who aren't paid but who play teammates who are paid.

If I were in charge of the NCAA, the simplest resolution would be looking at whether the individual was paid or not. It certainly works out in practice to close the borders against people who play through the normal channels in their country and who do not accept any payment for playing. One would think that was a bad thing...the NCAA doesn't (cue lack of surprise).

Its the exact same thing. Don't "presume" that they could waive it.

The NCAA does not give CHL players the choice of waiving money to retain eligibility. Even if they declined payment they would be ineligible. Its not the first act of collecting any money that makes a CHL player ineligible for the NCAA... its the first time a player has practiced with a CHL team. Once you have practiced or tried out for a team, you are ineligible for the NCAA for a minimum of two years... which sounds pretty familiar to what is happening in Europe.

It doesn't happen anymore, because everyone knows the rules, and there are hundreds of Canadians in the NCAA - an alternate yet inferior league has been set up.

Your making it sound like the Canadian made a choice to get paid, and that is what is causing the situation. No, instead they have to make a choice to avoid the CHL even though that is clearly a better developmental league. There are TIER 2 junior leagues, whose stars are players who decide not to play in the CHL at 16 or 17, to retain NCAA eligibility.

This hinders a players development... but they have no choice because of NCAA rules... its equally ridiculous because they would certainly waive getting paid to play in the better league (the less then $2K that every player gets paid for an entire season)

You should note there is no High School Hockey in Canada. Players between 16-20 play in "junior" hockey" leagues You play for a town / city. There are drafts depending on league quality.

Of course, the other problem is that the CHL probably does not want to co-operate with the NCAA. They are competing for the same players when they are 18-20, and IMO they are as equally evil as the NCAA. While its not quite as big money as the NCAA, these teams turn a nice little profit when you get 3000-10000 people to pay $15-25 bucks a ga,e over 40-50 home dates... and the players as a team get paid less then $50,000 for the entire year... and franchise values go from almost nothing a few decades ago to over $10 million... somebody is getting taken advantage of here.... just like the NCAA!!

[Atlanta Hawk Fan]

JN - You completely misread my post or I just was too unclear in what I was trying to say.

Note that both the basketball players and hockey players are ineligible under the current rule when they play on teams where their teammates are being paid. Under the current rules they are treated the same and so comparing one to the other for eligibility purposes would be meaningless. Thus, I was comparing them for purposes of what I was saying what the rules should be rather than what they are.

I am saying that the easiest way to determine whether someone is elibile or not would be to base it on whether they accepted money. What I am saying is that Canadians should be able to play in the CHL, decline payment of money, and retain their eligibility and that European players who are unpaid should likewise retain their elibility. This is the same thing that amateur golfers do when they play in certain tournaments. They can waive the money and retain their elibility or choose to accept the money and become a professional. I don't see why the same sort of rule could not apply to basketball, hockey, etc. Let them compete against the best and choose between being paid and retaining NCAA eligibility.

[wilt]

Now Gonzaga signed a young german, Elias Harris.

Has the rule changed any by now ? If not i´ll just say that i hate the NCAA.


I mean, if a HS kid works at a local shop he isn´t ruled ineligible to study business or sth like that, right ? Or someone playing in a band and getting paid isn´t ineligible to study music, right ?

Playing basketball besides going to school (which the german players and question did/do) is in no way any different or more lucrative than working at a local shop after school.

[Atlanta Hawk Fan]

Playing basketball besides going to school (which the german players and question did/do) is in no way any different or more lucrative than working at a local shop after school.

That I will disagree with. Athletes are competitively recruited to schools. $$ is a frequent means of trying to influence where the kids go. To avoid an unscrupulous downward spiral of corruption, it makes sense not to allow people to be paid for their ability to play basketball. People who work in a local shop after school are not competitively recruited where people are anxious to slide them $$ under the table like they are with athletes. It really is a situation where regulation is needed but I think the NCAA in unduly arbitrary in where they draw lines much of the time.