Question related to G. Arenas Rule

[DBoys]

Ranger, after he had played for a bit and teams started regarding him as a player to game plan, he wasn't scoring 25+ anymore after the 1st 10 games. That's my point.

In those last 16, he was mostly scoring in the teens with a high of 20 (twice) and three games where he was in single digits, he was shooting 40%, and he was at about 6 1/2 assists and 4 turnovers per game.

The fact that you have the IMPRESSION that he continued to rack up big scoring numbers after those first 10 games is precisely what I'm talking about when I said "the impression he left was the initial hyped version."

I can see a team thinking they are paying for that, and getting the guy who shoots 40% and turns it over almost as often as he gets an assist. The jury is still out on what he'll become, in my view. He's a great story however, and I'm sure some team will roll the dice.

[ranger001]

Actually I did not have that impression, I know he had some bad games after Melo returned to the lineup and his fg% and ppg dropped. Which is why I said if he had not had the injury it would have been interesting to see the results, a guy who was able to interface with Melo and still do well or the guy we saw shooting 40% when teams decided to pack the paint on him.

A Knicks pg really shouldn't be scoring 25+ with Smith, Melo and Amare on that team, if he went down to around 15 with the same percentages he was at in the beginning he would be well worth that money imo.

[sportscrazy]

Here's a good question...

Let's say the Knicks give Lin the MLE.. which they will. Can they realistically re-sign Landry Fields any more?

[DBoys]

Here's a good question...

Let's say the Knicks give Lin the MLE.. which they will. Can they realistically re-sign Landry Fields any more?

Sure. He'll be a RFA (Arenas) and they can match any offer by using his early Bird rights.

[HartfordWhalers]

Here's a good question...

Let's say the Knicks give Lin the MLE.. which they will. Can they realistically re-sign Landry Fields any more?

Sure. He'll be a RFA (Arenas) and they can match any offer by using his early Bird rights.

If they use the full MLE on Lin, it is my understanding that they can't go over the luxury tax + apron matching on Fields.

So, that would restrict the amount they could match if using the full MLE (roughly looking like they could match under 4m but not above it), even though they have bird rights and otherwise could match anything.

[DBoys]

Here's a good question...

Let's say the Knicks give Lin the MLE.. which they will. Can they realistically re-sign Landry Fields any more?

Sure. He'll be a RFA (Arenas) and they can match any offer by using his early Bird rights.

If they use the full MLE on Lin, it is my understanding that they can't go over the luxury tax + apron matching on Fields.

So, that would restrict the amount they could match if using the full MLE (roughly looking like they could match under 4m but not above it), even though they have bird rights and otherwise could match anything.

I don't think the 4M is right, even if you count JR keeping his 2nd year, which is unlikely. If they're short, it looks to me like it will be by nickels and dimes, and that's including JR staying on the existing deal and assumes the cap is at the lowest possible number it can be.

[HartfordWhalers]

JR opting out frees it considerably, but missing even by nickel and dimes would mean not being able to match. If someone wants to push the button on the full MLE amount to Fields (and Lin), the Knicks might have some trouble keeping both, depending on how their roster moves shake out.

[DBoys]

I don't think it will even come to that, because I see no way JR keeps his deal.

But they have the means to avoid problems. I don't watch Knicks games so have no idea whether J Jordan is valuable or a total spare. But if he's borderline, they could waive him at any time and get an extra $300K in cap room. That should give them enough room if they need a bit more.

On top of that, when i look closer, JR's salary is more than 100K less than i assumed it is. That alone might do the trick.

All of this assumes they'd need 5M for both Lin and Fields, which I have a hard time buying.

[ranger001]

If they use the full MLE on Lin, it is my understanding that they can't go over the luxury tax + apron matching on Fields.

Are you certain of this? I thought teams could go into the tax using their exceptions. What are the circumstances under which teams cannot go into the tax?

[HartfordWhalers]

If they use the full MLE on Lin, it is my understanding that they can't go over the luxury tax + apron matching on Fields.

Are you certain of this? I thought teams could go into the tax using their exceptions. What are the circumstances under which teams cannot go into the tax?

The full MLE has an associated 'hard cap' with it, where if a team uses it they can't go above the tax +4m line, even resigning free agents etc. I would speculate that the idea behind this is to ensure that a tax team couldn't take the full mle and then resign players and be well into the tax but having used the non tax MLE. The apron is more then the tax payer MLE, so a team would have been a taxpayer if they used the smaller MLE, if that makes sense. As far as I know, it is the only hard cap style limit.

Edit: Okay, the same hard cap applies for the BAE, and in the future will for S&T teams.

Here's a quick cite, althought there are better ones I'm sure:

This is the one case where a true hard cap exists in the NBA.

Teams over the apron can’t use the big MLE. They also can’t work around this rule by using the MLE first and then going over the apron. If they spend the full MLE, uses their bi-annual exception, or (starting year 3) gets a player via sign-and-trade, then the apron becomes a hard cap.

http://www.hoopsworld.com/salary-cap-ch ... oon-113011

[ranger001]

Ah, good to know. Found this also:-
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/CBA ... s-last-one

Additional limits for taxpaying teams

• 2011 CBA: Taxpaying teams have a smaller midlevel exception, can acquire less salary in trade, and cannot use the biannual exception. Starting in 2013-14, teams more than $4 million above the tax level cannot receive a player in a sign-and-trade transaction.

• Who benefits? Throughout the labor dispute, the league has tried to improve competitive balance by installing a very restrictive cap system -- first asking for a hard cap, then a "flex" cap, and then a highly punitive luxury tax, before finally settling on a luxury tax with more teeth. In addition to an incremental tax penalty, taxpaying teams now will have less access to exceptions. This will give small-market teams a competitive advantage -- for example, instead of weighing equal $5 million offers in Los Angeles and Minnesota, a free agent might be forced to choose between a $3 million offer in Los Angeles and a $5 million offer in Minnesota.

[sportscrazy]

So basically let's say Team X offers Lin a deal equal to the mid-level exception and later that day Team Y offers Fields a deal equal to the MLE, can the Knicks match both?

[DBoys]

So basically let's say Team X offers Lin a deal equal to the mid-level exception and later that day Team Y offers Fields a deal equal to the MLE, can the Knicks match both?

Technically as we speak the answer might be "no". But when we get to free agency, the answer may have changed - it will depend on what transpires between now and then, and ultimately the Knicks are positioned where they are certain to be able to match both, at max-possible amounts, if they need to and wish to.

Here all the numbers.

BEFORE MATCHING ANYONE
Melo $20,463,024
Amare $19,948,799
Chandler $13,604,188
JR $2,489,559
(Balkman waiver $1,675,000)
Shumpert $1,633,440
T-D $2,067,880
Harrelson $762,195
Jordan $762,195
Cap hold Lin $1,029,389
Cap hold Fields $1,029,389
Cap hold empty roster slot $473,604
Cap hold empty roster slot $473,604
TOTAL $64,353,488 not counting the holds for Lin and Fields.

The 2012-13 line for "tax + $4M" is guaranteed to be no less than $74,307,000. That leaves only $9,953,512 for Lin and Fields together, while $10M is needed to match max-sized offers.

But it can and will be solved without being any issue at all. In chronological order, here's what to look for:

1 In June, JR might decline his option for 2012-13, which would change his $2,489,559 salary hit to a cap hold of $473,604. That would not only give NY enough room for max offers to both Lin and Fields, but also guarantee they could use their full BAE of $1,957,000 if they wanted to.

2 On July 10, before free agency opens, the cap and tax numbers may go up. It would take an increase of less than $50,000 for the Knicks to be able to match max-possible offers to both Fields and Lin.

3 On July 11 or thereafter, one or both of Fields and Lin may get an offer less than the max-possible of $5M.

4 If none of that prevents the "problem" from ever arising, then Knicks will simply waive Jordan. His contract is not guaranteed and his $762,195 salary would be replaced with a cap hold of $473,604. That changes the total available to $10,242,103, more than enough to match max-sized offers to both Lin and Fields.

Bottom line: NY has no worries about ending up with an unmatchable offer.

[DanTown8587]

Here's a good question...

Let's say the Knicks give Lin the MLE.. which they will. Can they realistically re-sign Landry Fields any more?

Sure. He'll be a RFA (Arenas) and they can match any offer by using his early Bird rights.

You've said like eight times the Knicks have early Bird on Lin. No they don't. You have to have a guy for two years to get Early Bird rights.

[DBoys]

Here's a good question...

Let's say the Knicks give Lin the MLE.. which they will. Can they realistically re-sign Landry Fields any more?

Sure. He'll be a RFA (Arenas) and they can match any offer by using his early Bird rights.

You've said like eight times the Knicks have early Bird on Lin. No they don't. You have to have a guy for two years to get Early Bird rights.

I don't think I've said any such thing - I certainly didn't intend to. I didn't say it in the post you responded to, where the question was about Fields not Lin, and where the thinking is based on the understanding that Lin will not have EB rights and will have to be matched using some other means - we assume the MLE.

If you'll point out where I mistyped so I can go back and correct any error for later readers, I'll be glad to do so. I looked and didn't see it being said anywhere in this entire thread.

(FYI - you'll take a look back in this forum, I was probably the one who first (and most vocally) challenged the idea originally and repeatedly offered by Coon and others that Lin would be EB. He's not. I've noted that many times in this forum. I'm far from fuzzy on what his status is and why.)

To remain precise, you don't necessarily "have to have a player for 2 years" for him to be EB. He can move from team to team via trade without his Bird clock starting over. Lin's Bird clock reset not because he went from Golden State to Houston and then to NY, but because he moved from team to team via a waiver claim rather than via trade.

Back to topic - - The Knicks will have RFA rights on Lin (assuming they make the formal qualifying offer, which is a dead lock to happen). And they will have Arenas limits holding down the offers to Lin. The bottom line we've found from crunching the numbers is that if they need to, they will have the EB available for matching every possible offer on Fields, and the MLE for matching every possible offer on Lin.

[DanTown8587]

I don't think I've said any such thing - I certainly didn't intend to. I didn't say it in the post you responded to, where the question was about Fields not Lin, and where the thinking is based on the understanding that Lin will not have EB rights and will have to be matched using some other means - we assume the MLE.

I know you weren't saying it there, I was just saying quoting your most recent post with EB in them. That made sense in my head but I can see how that would confuse you. MY apologies.

If you'll point out where I mistyped so I can go back and correct any error for later readers, I'll be glad to do so. I looked and didn't see it being said anywhere in this entire thread.

(FYI - you'll take a look back in this forum, I was probably the one who first (and most vocally) challenged the idea originally and repeatedly offered by Coon and others that Lin would be EB. He's not. I've noted that many times in this forum. I'm far from fuzzy on what his status is and why.)

I thought when you said the following here

Matching using the MLE (or using Early Bird, if you have that on the player) under the Arenas rule, is allowed regardless of what the future years look like. But the team making the offer would have to carve out bigger-than-MLE space to make an offer with bigger-than-normal raises. In the Lin case, Advantage Knicks.

That you were saying the Knicks would be able to match any offer on Lin. They will ONLY be allowed to use their MLE on Lin (which if they renounce some cap holds, etc should be about the full boat MLE starting at 5 million). I do not believe the Knicks have any type of matching rights.

To remain precise, you don't necessarily "have to have a player for 2 years" for him to be EB. He can move from team to team via trade without his Bird clock starting over. Lin's Bird clock reset not because he went from Golden State to Houston and then to NY, but because he moved from team to team via a waiver claim rather than via trade.

Back to topic - - The Knicks will have RFA rights on Lin (assuming they make the formal qualifying offer, which is a dead lock to happen). And they will have Arenas limits holding down the offers to Lin. The bottom line we've found from crunching the numbers is that if they need to, they will have the EB available for matching every possible offer on Fields, and the MLE for matching every possible offer on Lin.

This is where I lose you. Are you saying that having a player who is early bird guarantees you the right to match any offer made to him?

Here is what Coon says in his own FAQ on players eligible for the Early Bird rule:

[Early Bird Exception] This is a weaker form of the Larry Bird exception, and is also a component of the Veteran Free Agent exception. Players who qualify for this exception are called "Early Qualifying Veteran Free Agents" in the CBA. A player qualifies for this exception essentially by playing two seasons without being waived or changing teams as a free agent (see question number 26 for details).

The Knicks do not have the Early Bird Exception to use on Lin. They have that to use on Fields (which means no matter the offer Fields gets, the Knicks can match it). If Toronto (or any team with the cap space) offers Lin 4/32 while using the Arenas Provision to keep the first two years based off the MLE, I fail to see the mechanism that allows the Knicks to match.

To sum up, Jeremy Lin the player will be an Early Bird Free Agent. The Knicks do not have the Early Bird Exception to use on Lin.

[ranger001]

The Knicks do not have the Early Bird Exception to use on Lin. They have that to use on Fields (which means no matter the offer Fields gets, the Knicks can match it). If Toronto (or any team with the cap space) offers Lin 4/32 while using the Arenas Provision to keep the first two years based off the MLE, I fail to see the mechanism that allows the Knicks to match.

Since Lin is a restricted free agent does that not mean that the Knicks have the right to match? They have to use their MLE on him but they should have the right to match whatever contract is offered with their mle.

[DanTown8587]

The Knicks do not have the Early Bird Exception to use on Lin. They have that to use on Fields (which means no matter the offer Fields gets, the Knicks can match it). If Toronto (or any team with the cap space) offers Lin 4/32 while using the Arenas Provision to keep the first two years based off the MLE, I fail to see the mechanism that allows the Knicks to match.

Since Lin is a restricted free agent does that not mean that the Knicks have the right to match? They have to use their MLE on him but they should have the right to match whatever contract is offered with their mle.

This is my question, does NY get the right to match both Lin AND Fields?

[ranger001]

The Knicks do not have the Early Bird Exception to use on Lin. They have that to use on Fields (which means no matter the offer Fields gets, the Knicks can match it). If Toronto (or any team with the cap space) offers Lin 4/32 while using the Arenas Provision to keep the first two years based off the MLE, I fail to see the mechanism that allows the Knicks to match.

Since Lin is a restricted free agent does that not mean that the Knicks have the right to match? They have to use their MLE on him but they should have the right to match whatever contract is offered with their mle.

This is my question, does NY get the right to match both Lin AND Fields?

As I understand it both are restricted and the Knicks get to match but they have to have an exception to match. Fields will be matched using the Early Bird Exception and Lin will be matched using the MLE.

[DBoys]

DanTown

It appears the problem is a confusion in your understanding of the rules, rather than something I said incorrectly. Rather than address the specific questions you asked that have arisen from your confusion, let me outline the rule(s). Then if you have more questions, we can address them.

There are three separate issues we are discussing here. These are not the same thing. They are Restricted Free Agency (which allows offers to be matched), Arenas rules (which limit the size of offers to certain RFAs), and Early Bird rights. It's important to understand that these are separate rules and issues, and not synonyms. Sometimes one or more of these overlap in being applied to the same player, but other times they do not. I'll explain what each of those is, and how they apply to Lin and Fields, below.

1 - RFA. Lin will undoubtedly be a RFA. Any player who has finished 3 years or less (or a 1st rounder coming off rookie scale deal at the end of year 4), can be a RFA if his team makes a Qualifying Offer, and being a RFA is what gives your old team the chance to match the offer you sign from another team. The Knicks will make that routine QO to Lin, and also to Fields, who will also be RFA.

2 - Arenas. Lin will be a RFA under the Arenas rule limits (and so will Fields), which is a rule that limits the offers other teams can make to certain RFAs. This rule applies to all RFAs with 2 NBA seasons or less, and its key point is that the first year of that offer from another team can't be bigger than the MLE. That makes it much easier for his old team to match.

3 - EB. Lin is not EB, since he will only have one consecutive season since his Bird clock started, when he hits free agency. It takes two. But Fields will be EB. For an EB player, his team is given an exception that is MLE sized (or less, if they wish), that they can use to sign him to a new deal. Those EB rights can be used to match RFA offers if the player is a RFA.

Putting it all together - Because both Lin and Fields will be Arenas RFAs, any offer sheet they get from another team will have to start at the MLE amount or less. With Fields, since they have EB rights, and since an offer sheet can't start bigger than the MLE, the Knicks can use his EB rights (same size as MLE) to match whatever offer he might get. With Lin, the Knicks won't have EB for matching purposes, but they will have an MLE, and they can use that instead if they want to match any offer. The point being, the Knicks will have the exceptions that allow them the cap freedom to match any offer sheet either of those players might receive.

There's one more issue. Under the new CBA, teams who pass the tax line by more than $4M don't get a full MLE. About a half dozen posts above, I broke down how the Knicks have managed their cap in such a way that, even if they get "full-MLE" sized offers to match for both Lin and Fields, they will still be CERTAIN to be able to stay below that "tax plus $4M" limit, providing them with a full MLE and being able to match. The key point is that no team will be able to make an offer to either that the Knicks would be prevented from matching under the cap rules. You can review that post and its numbers to see how that breaks down.

Ultimately it could all play out a different way. Either Lin or Fields (or both) might sign an offer sheet and end up with a deal far below the MLE. Or the Knicks might want to spend their money elsewhere, if they feel the offers are too big. And they might make other moves that can change the landscape, if they have different priorities. BUT - if keeping Lin and Fields are their priorities, they have it locked up.