The seven-days start, when?

[Jsun947]

6.) The Memphis Grizzlies and the Boston Celtics signed a player approved by the NBA whom according to the NBA had a career ending injury - FACT!

The adjudication by the NBA's doctors that Miles' injury was career ending was only speculative, and a prediction. It could never be anything else, such is the nature of the beast when you're trying to predict the future. The NBA put the 10 game ruling thing into place as a safeguard in case such a prediction ever turned out to be wrong, and, in this case, it was.

11.) You are making an assumption that appearing in 10 NBA games constitutes a player being healthy enough to have an NBA career. There is no medical explanation for this being true. Anyone at any age with any level of health can stand on a court for 10 games.

Conversely, why was it any less healthy for Darius to return on his surgically repaired knee than it was for, say, Dikembe Mutombo to play these last three years? Of course, Darius risked popping his knee again every time he jumped, and causing perhaps lifelong damage to his knee. But for all we know, Mutombo could have been taking 3 years of walking pain-free from the back end of his life for each year that he backed up Yao Ming on the Rockets. He, too, risked a career ending injury every time he took the court and left the ground, because he too had decidedly haggard knees from several centuries of playing in the NBA. Medical teams may well have been able to say without fear of contradiction that, while Dikembe could play, he shouldn't. And remember that, of the two, it was Dikembe who suffered a career ender, not Darius.

More to the point - Darius didn't stand on the court for fleeting moments in 10 games. He was in a rotation for 34 games. The proof of his ability to not only take an NBA court, but to perform acceptably well on it, came from the fact that he did it. Sure, a yardstick as arbitrary as the 10 games one COULD, in theory, be manipulated by suiting up a pensioner and stapling them to the half court line for 5 seconds at the end of the first half for three weeks. But this didn't happen. Whatever Memphis' motives, Darius' health was acceptable.

No. You are wrong. The CBA clearly states that the NBA will assign an independent doctor to evaluate the injury of the player, then make a professional medical opinion on whether or not this injury is career ending. The doctor said "YES, DARIUS MILES HAS A CAREER ENDING INJURY". There is no gray area in this!!! If they go to the lengths to hire a doctor to determine if an injury is career ending then the only reasonable way to determine whether or not a player no longer has a career ending injury is for a doctor assigned by the NBA to make a professional medical determination that the previous career ending injury has healed to the point where he is healthy enough to resume an NBA career.

There is no standard set in the CBA for what defines a "career" in the NBA.
There is no standard of performance set in the CBA for defining a "career" in the NBA.
The only standard set in the CBA is the appearance in 10 games. In fact they do not even establish the amount of time on the court during those 10 games.
In fact NOTHING in the CBA states that appearing in 10 games shows ANY SIGN OF PROOF THAT A PLAYER DOES NOT HAVE A CAREER ENDING INJURY!!!

The salary cap relief is specifically provided for A CAREER ENDING INJURY which CAN ONLY BE DETERMINED BY THE INDEPENDENT DOCTOR!

[Three34]

No. You are wrong. The CBA clearly states that the NBA will assign an independent doctor to evaluate the injury of the player, then make a professional medical opinion on whether or not this injury is career ending. The doctor said "YES, DARIUS MILES HAS A CAREER ENDING INJURY". There is no gray area in this!!!

The grey area comes from the fact that he was PREDICTING THE BLOODY FUTURE. If Miles' injury was career ending in the literal, actual, proper definition of the word (and not just by the CBA's definition of it), then Miles wouldn't have a career right now. But lo and behold, he does. And so, whoopsy, it wasn't career ending after all.

[Jsun947]

Perhaps allowing the team to trade that contract in a situation like this would be a good resolution (and making them use a roster spot on it, just as if the player is still there)?

Just how do you see this working? Portland waived Miles, got an NBA approved doctor to say he had a career-ending injury, and the league allowed Portand to take the remainder of the salary they owed him off their cap. Their hope was that he stays retired and off their cap.

However, Memphis picks him up as a minimum-salaried free agent. He plays ten games for them and his salary goes back on Portland's cap. Under Casey's proposition, should Portland then have the right to take him away from Memphis at this point in the hopes that they can trade his $9M contract, which we all know wouldn't happen.

And by the same token. I don't think Dekko's ROFR suggestion is practical. When Boston signed Miles in training camp, or Memphis signed him during the season, do you really think Portland would have jumped in and said "No, we'll take him back and pay him $9M a year." They would bet that he wouldn't play ten games. In the Boston case they would have been right. In the Memphis case, they would have lost the bet.

In all the cases where a team had a player taken off their cap because of a career-ending injury, Miles is the only case where a player actually returned to play ten games. And you don't hear the fans of those other teams complaining that the rule is unfair. Portland is having to pay Miles the last two years of the contract they gave him. I don't see anything unfair about that.

Its unfair because Portland was provided that salary cap relief based on the fact that the NBA decided his injury was career ending. The NBA never at any point, to this day have had another medical evaluation showing that this injury has progressed in a positive direction. In addition, they denied Portland the opportunity to pursue their right to employee Darius Miles.

Lets say Lebron has a terrible accident. The NBA doctors say he is unable to play basketball so Cleveland waives him. Lebron rehabs and decides to make a come back. Shouldn't Cleveland have an opportunity to sign the player they invested hundreds of millions of dollars in? Its not like Cleveland wanted or chose for Lebron to be injured.

Portland was denied that right unfairly as well.

[Three34]

They were denied that right because the NBA believed that Portland were trying to claim Miles for illicit purposes, i.e. to STOP him playing him games so as to avoid the money going back on their cap. And they were. They just bloody were. You know it, I know it, Dunkenstein knows it, Sally Gunnell knows it, Allen Greenspan knows it, Daphne Du Maurier knew it.

If Portland want to sign Miles as a player, who they'll then actually play, then they're no doubt going to be allowed to do that.

[Jsun947]

No. You are wrong. The CBA clearly states that the NBA will assign an independent doctor to evaluate the injury of the player, then make a professional medical opinion on whether or not this injury is career ending. The doctor said "YES, DARIUS MILES HAS A CAREER ENDING INJURY". There is no gray area in this!!!

The grey area comes from the fact that he was PREDICTING THE BLOODY FUTURE. If Miles' injury was career ending in the literal, actual, proper definition of the word (and not just by the CBA's definition of it), then Miles wouldn't have a career right now. But lo and behold, he does. And so, whoopsy, it wasn't career ending after all.

Currently I'm in a cast from a basketball injury. If I played in 10 games for the Grizzlies I would have an NBA career as well? No reasonable person would see it that way.

You cannot set the standard for a career ending injury to be a medical evaluation and not involve a doctor to determine if that injury is in the same or a worsened state. No reasonable person would make this assumption. The CBA at no point defines what constitutes as an NBA career.

[FGump]

Jsun ...

First of all, you're missing the obviousness that a career ends only when a player isn't playing anymore. As Sham noted, the NBA doc's original assessment is a prediction of the chances of the player resuming his career at a later date - but ultimately, a career ends when it ends, not when a doc says it might end.

So the rule is designed to offer cap relief if it looks like this injury might have ended things ... but the door has to be left ajar for when the doc guesses wrong. How will we know it was a bad guess? Because lo and behold, the player is on the floor playing in NBA games again! And if it was a bad prediction, then "actuality" overrides the guess and the salary is reinstated on the cap.

Second, your assertion that no doctor ever examines the player before he steps on an NBA floor is goofy. All teams have team doctors who are going to look you over and examine injuries and see if you are healthy enough to play. They are doling out multi-million dollar contracts, and they check closely to make sure their investment is as sound as possible. A car dealer isn't going to pay $5000 for a used car without having his mechanics test it out, so why would you think a team will pay $1-2 MILLION or more for a player and never have him examined? Of course not.

Third, the reason the Blazers were prohibited from claiming Miles contract was because the league decided that prohibition was needed in the interests of the league. Commissioner's powers, maybe? In any event, it was not a ruling of any kind on his fitness or likelihood of playing.

Finally you say "I believe this is the argument that the Blazer's will present to the NBA at the end of this season." And I believe you're delusional if you think the Blazers are submitting ANY arguments to anyone on this situation. The rules are league rules, they knew the rules, they had AGREED to the rules when written, and the rules were administered exactly as written. As such, they have no cause for contention. Now they may ask that the rules be fine-tuned a bit as we've discussed, but the idea they think they have a beef is a fantasy.

[Jsun947]

They were denied that right because the NBA believed that Portland were trying to claim Miles for illicit purposes, i.e. to STOP him playing him games so as to avoid the money going back on their cap. And they were. They just bloody were. You know it, I know it, Dunkenstein knows it, Sally Gunnell knows it, Allen Greenspan knows it, Daphne Du Maurier knew it.

If Portland want to sign Miles as a player, who they'll then actually play, then they're no doubt going to be allowed to do that.

So now we can throw the CBA out the window strictly based on assumptions without any form of proof or evidence? What is the point of writing and drafting the CBA then?

Portland worked very hard with Darius over two years trying to rehab him. They were the ones that signed him to that contract. If they believed that Darius could still become the player they signed wouldn't they deserve the opportunity to find out?

[Three34]

If they believed that Darius could still become the player they signed wouldn't they deserve the opportunity to find out?

They had several, from the day he was waived to the day that he signed with Memphis. But they didn't. Do you know why they didn't?

They didn't re-sign him because they didn't want him. They regretted the contract from the minute it was signed, and they pushed for the medical exception that they were eventually granted. They did not like Darius as a person, or a player, and they hated his contract, one so bad that they fired the person who gave it out. Put simply, they were happy to get rid of Darius and his contract. Really, really happy.

Their interest in adding Darius to their roster miraculously only appeared on the day that Darius was 2 games and 2 minutes away from costing them tens of millions of dollars.

Funny, that.

[FGump]

Portland worked very hard with Darius over two years trying to rehab him. They were the ones that signed him to that contract. If they believed that Darius could still become the player they signed wouldn't they deserve the opportunity to find out?

They had all the opportunity in the world to have him and use him. No one forced them to go to the NBA and say, "We think this player is done. We don't see him as being usable." But they did. The NBA docs didn't come on their own, they were summoned by Portland as part of their plan to get rid of him.

And as Sham put it so eloquently, no one anywhere believed Portland wanted to claim Miles in order to use him ...and the Blazers haven't made that claim either. (Maybe if they had made that commitment, the league would have allowed them to claim him, who knows. But we all know that was not their intent.)

[Jsun947]

Jsun ...

First of all, you're missing the obviousness that a career ends only when a player isn't playing anymore. As Sham noted, the NBA doc's original assessment is a prediction of the chances of the player resuming his career at a later date - but ultimately, a career ends when it ends, not when a doc says it might end.

So the rule is designed to offer cap relief if it looks like this injury might have ended things ... but the door has to be left ajar for when the doc guesses wrong. How will we know it was a bad guess? Because lo and behold, the player is on the floor playing in NBA games again! And if it was a bad prediction, then "actuality" overrides the guess and the salary is reinstated on the cap.

Second, your assertion that no doctor ever examines the player before he steps on an NBA floor is goofy. All teams have team doctors who are going to look you over and examine injuries and see if you are healthy enough to play. They are doling out multi-million dollar contracts, and they check closely to make sure their investment is as sound as possible. A car dealer isn't going to pay $5000 for a used car without having his mechanics test it out, so why would you think a team will pay $1-2 MILLION or more for a player and never have him examined? Of course not.

Third, the reason the Blazers were prohibited from claiming Miles contract was because the league decided that prohibition was needed in the interests of the league. Commissioner's powers, maybe? In any event, it was not a ruling of any kind on his fitness or likelihood of playing.

Finally you say "I believe this is the argument that the Blazer's will present to the NBA at the end of this season." And I believe you're delusional if you think the Blazers are submitting ANY arguments to anyone on this situation. The rules are league rules, they knew the rules, they had AGREED to the rules when written, and the rules were administered exactly as written. As such, they have no cause for contention. Now they may ask that the rules be fine-tuned a bit as we've discussed, but the idea they think they have a beef is a fantasy.

Your argument still doesn't make any sense. The NBA had an independent doctor make a medical decision on the injury. The NBA never assigned an independent doctor to re-evaluate this injury.

The Career ending injury process was created to allow financial and salary cap relief for the team THE PURPOSE OF A CAREER ENDING INJURY! This is the NBA's decision, NOT PORTLAND'S!

The clause that applies the salary back to Portland's cap HAS NO BEARING ON WHETHER THAT INJURY STILL EXIST!

If the salary cap relief is provided due to a career ending injury, then it is only reasonable that to remove that salary cap relief from the team is based on the fact that THE NBA HAS DETERMINED THE PLAYER NO LONGER HAS A CAREER ENDING INJURY! There is NO RESTRICTION IN CBA not allowing the original team to sign the player.

The stipulation of a player being in 10 games shows NO MEDICAL PROOF that the player does NOT still have this injury. No reasonable person would say that just because he has played in 10 or 34 games that he no longer has that injury. What if the career ending injury cripples Miles tomorrow? Clearly the doctor was correct in his original assessment.

[Three34]

What if the career ending injury cripples Miles tomorrow? Clearly the doctor was correct in his original assessment.

Except he wasn't, because Darius had a career again. You just witnessed it. It was the 40 combined games he played with two NBA teams last year.

Darius may well run a higher risk of re-injury and spectacular abject failure of his knee than other NBA players not in his position. In fact, I'd surprised if he didn't, considering the nature and severity of his initial injury. However, that doesn't mean that he isn't able to play in the NBA. He IS able to play in the NBA. We know that he is able to play in the NBA, because he IS playing in the NBA.

It really is that simple. There need not be a stipulation in the CBA as to whether a player is physically able to play or not - that's a decision to be made by prospective employers. Clearly, Memphis thought he was able to play in the NBA. Clearly, they were right. Because he did.

[Jsun947]

Portland worked very hard with Darius over two years trying to rehab him. They were the ones that signed him to that contract. If they believed that Darius could still become the player they signed wouldn't they deserve the opportunity to find out?

They had all the opportunity in the world to have him and use him. No one forced them to go to the NBA and say, "We think this player is done. We don't see him as being usable." But they did. The NBA docs didn't come on their own, they were summoned by Portland as part of their plan to get rid of him.

And as Sham put it so eloquently, no one anywhere believed Portland wanted to claim Miles in order to use him ...and the Blazers haven't made that claim either. (Maybe if they had made that commitment, the league would have allowed them to claim him, who knows. But we all know that was not their intent.)

The NBA told Portland that Darius Miles has a career ending injury.
Portland would be taking an EXTREMELY SERIOUS medical liability problem on with signing Darius Miles whom they just spent 2 years trying to rehab, whom the NBA told them could not play anymore.
According to you the only way to find out if Darius Miles doesn't have a career ending injury is until he plays 10 games.
This means according to you he still has a career ending injury until the day he goes back on Portland's salary cap.

Why don't you understand how ridiculous this is?

[Jsun947]

What if the career ending injury cripples Miles tomorrow? Clearly the doctor was correct in his original assessment.

Except he wasn't, because Darius had a career again. You just witnessed it. It was the 40 combined games he played with two NBA teams last year.

Darius may well run a higher risk of re-injury and spectacular abject failure of his knee than other NBA players not in his position. In fact, I'd surprised if he didn't, considering the nature and severity of his initial injury. However, that doesn't mean that he isn't able to play in the NBA. He IS able to play in the NBA. We know that he is able to play in the NBA, because he IS playing in the NBA.

It really is that simple. There need not be a stipulation in the CBA as to whether a player is physically able to play or not - that's a decision to be made by prospective employers. Clearly, Memphis thought he was able to play in the NBA. Clearly, they were right. Because he did.

You are taking two completely different things and making them into one.

Darius Miles has proved only one thing. He can play in an NBA game, in fact he can do it fourty times for 8 minutes and get lucky enough to not be in a wheel chair so far. Darius Miles has not proven he is capable of having an NBA career. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

The civil court system in the united states is based on what they call the "reasonable person standard". I do not believe that in court Darius Miles playing 8 minutes a game for 34 games would constitute proof of him being capable of an NBA career to a reasonable person. You, yourself do not believe he is medically capable of having an NBA career.


STANDING ON A BASKETBALL COURT IS NOT A CAREER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Three34]

Darius Miles has proved only one thing. He can play in an NBA game, in fact he can do it forty times for 8 minutes and get lucky enough to not be in a wheel chair so far. Darius Miles has not proven he is capable of having an NBA career. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

Because it's wrong. If playing to an fairly decent standard of basketball in multiple NBA games is not an "NBA career" to you, then God bless you, because that's the definition of it for me right thurr.

STANDING ON A BASKETBALL COURT IS NOT A CAREER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He didn't stand. He ran, he jumped, he played, he performed. He did pretty well, too.

[Jsun947]

Darius Miles has proved only one thing. He can play in an NBA game, in fact he can do it forty times for 8 minutes and get lucky enough to not be in a wheel chair so far. Darius Miles has not proven he is capable of having an NBA career. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

Because it's wrong. If playing to an fairly decent standard of basketball in multiple NBA games is not an "NBA career" to you, then God bless you, because that's the definition of it for me right thurr.

STANDING ON A BASKETBALL COURT IS NOT A CAREER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He didn't stand. He ran, he jumped, he played, he performed. He did pretty well, too.

I do not call 3.5 points and 1.7 rebounds in 9 minutes of garbage time on one of the worst teams in the NBA a career. You can find thousands of people in this country capable of the same level of basketball, almost all of which are not actually in the NBA, nor would be considered capable of having a career in the NBA.

And this isn't about his statistics in those games anyway. Its about his current medical state and whether or not it has changed since his original diagnosis. The NBA was told Darius Miles is playing Russian Roulette with his ability walk. Just because he may have pulled the trigger 34 times already and has not died doesn't mean there isn't a bullet in the gun.

If I'm a race car driver who lost his eye sight and I happen to make it around the track 10 times does not mean I can have a career in NASCAR. Just because you can do something poorly in a limited amount of time does not prove you can have a career in that field.

[FGump]

The NBA told Portland that Darius Miles has a career ending injury.

Portland would be taking an EXTREMELY SERIOUS medical liability problem on with signing Darius Miles whom they just spent 2 years trying to rehab, whom the NBA told them could not play anymore.

According to you the only way to find out if Darius Miles doesn't have a career ending injury is until he plays 10 games.

This means according to you he still has a career ending injury until the day he goes back on Portland's salary cap.

Why don't you understand how ridiculous this is?

If you don't like it, write the NBA. They are the ones whose rules say you can have a "career ending injury" and then later potentially continue your NBA career. Their terminology may need cleaning up a bit.

But the rule itself - and its effect on a team's cap - is NOT in dispute. Not here, not in Portland, not anywhere. If the salary is excluded at one point because he "can't play anymore" and then later he is playing, then a mistake was made in the first place and the salary is no longer to be excluded.

[Three34]

Just because he may have pulled the trigger 34 times already and has not died doesn't mean there isn't a bullet in the gun.

Well, let's use your imagery then.

If/when that bullet is fired, his career will be over. But, like you said, that bullet has not been fired.

Therefore, Darius' career is not over.

[Jsun947]

The dispute is simply two things.

1.) The CBA defines the cause for the cap relief. The stipulation for adding the salary back to the cap has absolutely no connection with the cause of providing the cap relief in the first place.

This is like saying... As of January 1st 2009 if you overpaid your taxes for 2008 you will receive a refund. Your refund for 2009 will be revoked under the following circumstances... The state budget increases in the year 2010-2011.

Yes. Each rule is very clear. It is also very clear that one rule contradicts the purpose of the other. The refund is for the purpose of overpaying for the 2008 budget. Revoking the refund has absolutely no correlation to the purpose of the refund as it reflects issues with the budget in 2010-2011...

2.) The NBA declined the right to allow Portland to sign Darius Miles based strictly on an assumption with no evidence or facts to back it up. THIS IS A RIGHT PROVIDED TO PORTLAND BY THE CBA AND IT WAS DENIED WITHOUT JUST CAUSE. Portland simply wanted the NBA to assign an independent doctor to re-evaluate Darius Miles to find out of the injury had improved during his rehab. If the doctor concluded that the injury was no longer career threatening then the NBA could apply the salary cap figure back on if Darius Miles did indeed play 10 games.

(1) Beginning on the first anniversary of the injury or illness, the Team may apply to the NBA to have the player’s Salary for each remaining Salary Cap Year covered by the Contract excluded from Team Salary.

(2) The determination of whether a player has suffered a career-ending injury or illness shall be made by a physician selected jointly by the NBA and the Players Association.

(4) Notwithstanding Section 4(h)(1) and (2) above, if after a player’s Salary is excluded from Team Salary in accordance with this Section 4(h), the player plays in ten (10) NBA games in any Season, the excluded Salary for the Salary Cap Year covering such Season and each subsequent Salary Cap Year shall thereupon be included in Team Salary (and if the tenth game played is a playoff game, then the excluded Salary shall be included in Salary retroactively as of the start of the Team’s last Regular Season game).

Note: Nowhere in section 4 does it define a player not having a career ending injury under this circumstance.

[Jsun947]

Just because he may have pulled the trigger 34 times already and has not died doesn't mean there isn't a bullet in the gun.

Well, let's use your imagery then.

If/when that bullet is fired, his career will be over. But, like you said, that bullet has not been fired.

Therefore, Darius' career is not over.

The analogy would be more accurately depicted as Darius Mile's having a career is using an empty gun. Darius Miles having a career ending injury is a gun with a bullet loaded.

There is a bullet loaded in Darius Mile's gun. He still has a career ending injury until a doctor proves otherwise.

[Three34]

Alrighty.