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Question related to G. Arenas Rule
Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:23 pm
by westcoast01
I have two questions on how teams' salary cap implication will be when try to keep their own Restricted FA, under use G. Arenas rule.
For example, say the Raptors want to make a run at Jeremy Lin, to help their ticket sale. If they have 12 million under the salary cap each of the next few years, what's the maximum 4-year contract they can offer? Is it $12 * 4 = $48 million?
Under the G. Arena rule, the first two years cannot exceed $5 million, since the average salary over the contract applies to the cap, that means maximum $12mil each year can be used towards the cap here. can they do something like $5mil, $5mil, $19mil, $19mil?
If so, can the Knicks match it? I know the Knicks can use $5mil MLE for the first two years, but what's the implication of the back-loaded year 3 and 4? They will be well over the $58mil soft cap for 2014-2015 with the big-3's contracts, only get $5mil MLE left. Can they go over the cap to match the year 3 and 4 in this case?
Thanks in advance.
Re: Question related to G. Arenas Rule
Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:59 pm
by DBoys
"can the Knicks match it? "
No matter the offer, it has to be structured in such a way that the Knicks can match it by using their MLE.
Re: Question related to G. Arenas Rule
Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:49 pm
by westcoast01
DBoys wrote:"can the Knicks match it? "
No matter the offer, it has to be structured in such a way that the Knicks can match it by using their MLE.
Is this written in the new CBA? I couldn't find this information from the old CBA.
Re: Question related to G. Arenas Rule
Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:00 pm
by DBoys
"Is this written in the new CBA?"
It was in the old CBA and hasn't changed, and that limitation is the essence of the Arenas Rule.
Re: Question related to G. Arenas Rule
Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:16 pm
by ranger001
DBoys wrote:"can the Knicks match it? "
No matter the offer, it has to be structured in such a way that the Knicks can match it by using their MLE.
Does the MLE allow the Knicks to have a jump in the 3rd year greater than the standard raise? I know the 3rd year jump can be offered, not sure what exception is used to match it.
Re: Question related to G. Arenas Rule
Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:23 pm
by DBoys
ranger001 wrote:DBoys wrote:"can the Knicks match it? "
No matter the offer, it has to be structured in such a way that the Knicks can match it by using their MLE.
Does the MLE allow the Knicks to have a jump in the 3rd year greater than the standard raise? I know the 3rd year jump can be offered, not sure what exception is used to match it.
Matching using the MLE (or using Early Bird, if you have that on the player) under the Arenas rule, is allowed regardless of what the future years look like. But the team making the offer would have to carve out bigger-than-MLE space to make an offer with bigger-than-normal raises. In the Lin case, Advantage Knicks.
Re: Question related to G. Arenas Rule
Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:00 pm
by ranger001
So to be clear, if the team making the offer has larger than MLE capspace, say 10m then they can offer the big 3rd year jump. The Knicks are allowed to match the contract, including the 3rd year jump with the MLE.
Now if the Knicks were to just offer an MLE contract they can only use the standard maximum raises, correct? Thus Lin can get a bigger contract if a third team offers it but not if he accepts the Knicks MLE offer.
Re: Question related to G. Arenas Rule
Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:14 pm
by westcoast01
ranger001 wrote:So to be clear, if the team making the offer has larger than MLE capspace, say 10m then they can offer the big 3rd year jump. The Knicks are allowed to match the contract, including the 3rd year jump with the MLE.
Now if the Knicks were to just offer an MLE contract they can only use the standard maximum raises, correct? Thus Lin can get a bigger contract if a third team offers it but not if he accepts the Knicks MLE offer.
This is exactly what I'm not sure.
I guess since Lin will be 3 years with the Knicks by the end of the 2nd contract year, so technically, the Knicks has the full "Bird Rights" over him for the 3rd contract year, hence the 3rd jump is okay for the Knicks.
Re: Question related to G. Arenas Rule
Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:40 pm
by HartfordWhalers
westcoast01 wrote:ranger001 wrote:So to be clear, if the team making the offer has larger than MLE capspace, say 10m then they can offer the big 3rd year jump. The Knicks are allowed to match the contract, including the 3rd year jump with the MLE.
Now if the Knicks were to just offer an MLE contract they can only use the standard maximum raises, correct? Thus Lin can get a bigger contract if a third team offers it but not if he accepts the Knicks MLE offer.
This is exactly what I'm not sure.
I guess since Lin will be 3 years with the Knicks by the end of the 2nd contract year, so technically, the Knicks has the full "Bird Rights" over him for the 3rd contract year, hence the 3rd jump is okay for the Knicks.
Mid contract gaining of Bird Rights doesn't enable a player to sign a contract that would require mid contract gaining of Bird Rights.
Or simpler put, his Bird Rights only matters when he signs a contract (when he wouldn't have them), not during it.
Re: Question related to G. Arenas Rule
Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:38 pm
by DBoys
HartfordWhalers wrote:
Mid contract gaining of Bird Rights doesn't enable a player to sign a contract that would require mid contract gaining of Bird Rights.
Or simpler put, his Bird Rights only matters when he signs a contract (when he wouldn't have them), not during it.
I don't understand what you're trying to convey in any of this.
Re: Question related to G. Arenas Rule
Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:42 pm
by DBoys
ranger001 wrote:So to be clear, if the team making the offer has larger than MLE capspace, say 10m then they can offer the big 3rd year jump. The Knicks are allowed to match the contract, including the 3rd year jump with the MLE.
YES
Now if the Knicks were to just offer an MLE contract they can only use the standard maximum raises, correct? Thus Lin can get a bigger contract if a third team offers it but not if he accepts the Knicks MLE offer.
CORRECT
A better topic of debate in my opinion is - !s paying Lin more than the MLE a reasonable (or likely) contract? I find it questionable that anyone would want to make such an offer. If he doesn't have that kind of appeal, all of this figuring out how teams can offer him more is moot.
We'll see what happens in July.
Re: Question related to G. Arenas Rule
Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:50 am
by HartfordWhalers
DBoys wrote:HartfordWhalers wrote:
Mid contract gaining of Bird Rights doesn't enable a player to sign a contract that would require mid contract gaining of Bird Rights.
Or simpler put, his Bird Rights only matters when he signs a contract (when he wouldn't have them), not during it.
I don't understand what you're trying to convey in any of this.
I was responding to below, and the idea that a team could make a new contract based on Bird Rights they don't have yet but that are picked up mid contract of the new contract now being offering. Which they can't.
westcoast01 wrote:
I guess since Lin will be 3 years with the Knicks by the end of the 2nd contract year, so technically, the Knicks has the full "Bird Rights" over him for the 3rd contract year, hence the 3rd jump is okay for the Knicks.
Re: Question related to G. Arenas Rule
Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:47 am
by westcoast01
DBoys wrote:ranger001 wrote:A better topic of debate in my opinion is - !s paying Lin more than the MLE a reasonable (or likely) contract? I find it questionable that anyone would want to make such an offer. If he doesn't have that kind of appeal, all of this figuring out how teams can offer him more is moot.
We'll see what happens in July.
I'm not stating that any team will give Lin a contract over MLE a year, just use it as an example to understand the salary cap implication with such an offer. My question is still not answered.
1. Can a team with $10 mil under the cap offer LIN a $40mil/4yr contract, structured like $5, $5, $15, $15?
2. If so, can the Knicks match this offer? If they can, how each year's salary count against their cap, or it won't matter?
thanks.
Re: Question related to G. Arenas Rule
Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:07 am
by DBoys
westcoast01 wrote:
1. Can a team with $10 mil under the cap offer LIN a $40mil/4yr contract, structured like $5, $5, $15, $15?
2. If so, can the Knicks match this offer? If they can, how each year's salary count against their cap, or it won't matter?
thanks.
a - For a team who wants to make an over-MLE offer to an Arenas-rule player, there are special requirements in order to be able to fit that player onto their cap. The rule says:
The average salary of the whole contract must fit within the offering team's cap space. Assuming that $15M was allowable to offer Lin in year 3 (players have max salary limits), then your example in 1 would be possible for a team with 10M in cap space. And if the Knicks did not match, Lin's cap hit would be 10M for each of the 4 years, rather than the actual amounts.
b - That special cap accounting governs the ability for the
offering team to make the offer, and the players cap hit would be 10-10-10-10 only if the old team does not match the offer.
c - If the old team (the Knicks, in this case) want to match, their cap limits are the normal one of only needing to fit the first year salary onto their cap. Since the first year of the offer will have to be MLE or less, the Knicks can match that offer by using their MLE as the exception to fit the contract onto their cap.
....It appears you may be thinking (incorrectly) that a team must account for future caps when they sign a player. That is not the case. You fit a player's contract onto your cap legally one time, and then it's done. In this case, the Knicks could get Lin's contract on their cap using their 2012 MLE, and the cap hits would be 5-5-15-15.
Re: Question related to G. Arenas Rule
Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:59 pm
by westcoast01
DBoys wrote:westcoast01 wrote:....It appears you may be thinking (incorrectly) that a team must account for future caps when they sign a player. That is not the case. You fit a player's contract onto your cap legally one time, and then it's done. In this case, the Knicks could get Lin's contract on their cap using their 2012 MLE, and the cap hits would be 5-5-15-15.
Thank you very much, I understand it now.
I knew the offering team needs to fit the average salary of the entire contract to each year's cap, but was not sure how the Knicks' matched offer will impact their cap, if they could.
Re: Question related to G. Arenas Rule
Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:16 pm
by westcoast01
DBoys wrote:westcoast01 wrote:...
You fit a player's contract onto your cap legally one time, and then it's done. In this case, the Knicks could get Lin's contract on their cap using their 2012 MLE, and the cap hits would be 5-5-15-15.
Does this leave a big hole for teams to take advantage of? For teams who over the cap, they can offer league minimum in the first year, then back-load it to even out.
Re: Question related to G. Arenas Rule
Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:28 pm
by DBoys
westcoast01 wrote:I knew the offering team needs to fit the average salary of the entire contract to each year's cap...
Just to make sure we're clear on this ...either you mis-worded the above, or you are still confused ...
At the time a team makes (or matches) an Arenas offer, future year cap hits aren't considered at all in determining whether the deal is legal or not. The team only has to fit the first year cap hit (which for the offering team would be the average salary of the entire contract, and for the matching team would be the actual salary) legally onto their roster for the FIRST YEAR, in order to do the deal.
Re: Question related to G. Arenas Rule
Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:03 pm
by ranger001
DBoys wrote:A better topic of debate in my opinion is - !s paying Lin more than the MLE a reasonable (or likely) contract? I find it questionable that anyone would want to make such an offer. If he doesn't have that kind of appeal, all of this figuring out how teams can offer him more is moot.
Before his injury why wouldn't a team make such an offer? He's proven he's clutch, he outplayed John Wall and several other PGs making millions. He's got great potential for someone who's basically a rookie as he's never gotten appreciable minutes before. And money wise he's great for any team due to his immense popularity.
We'll see what happens in July.
Yeah but I think the offers will be lower due to his injury. A 5,5,10,10 offer is an average of 7.5 and he outplayed e.g. Jose Calderon who makes 10m/year.
Re: Question related to G. Arenas Rule
Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:17 pm
by DBoys
WC, an Arenas offer (which allows the big jump in yr 3) must be for the full MLE amount in year 1 and have a 4.5% raise in year 2.
Ranger, I think Lin came into an ideal setup for him and made huge waves because of the over-hype that accompanies all things NY, then tailed off considerably once he had played very much. But the impression he left was the initial hyped version. It wouldn't surprise me if any team offering him a full MLE deal liv3es to regret it.
Re: Question related to G. Arenas Rule
Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:13 pm
by ranger001
The thing about hype though is that it doesn't allow you to score 25+ ppg especially when other teams know about you and have plans to shut you down. The fact that teams were double teaming him means he's better than your average rookie pg.
Melo coming back was a bit of a game changer, its too bad he got the injury. Would have been interesting to see how it worked out.