Knicks Cap Space (Question about Incomplete Roster Charges Deduction)

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Knicks Cap Space (Question about Incomplete Roster Charges Deduction) 

Post#1 » by Richard4444 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:25 pm

How much cap space will the Knicks need to sign Durant and Irving for the MAX next season?

Theirs max salary will be 70,85M (35% + 30% of 109M Cap Space).

Can I deduct incomplete roster cap Holds while signing them? How many Cap Holds can I deduct? Can I sign both with a Free Cap Space of 69,95M or 69,05M?

The Knicks will have 22,7M in salaries in the books (Frank, Knox, Frank, Mitch, Noah and LT) and only 4 players in the roster. And there are various Cap Holds for 2019 FRP signing, no garantee (Dotson), team option players (Trier, Henry, Jenkins) and Birds Right Players (Kornet).

If the Knicks pick 5th pick (6,5M), Keep Dotson (1,5M) and Trier Cap Hold (3,5M), they would have 34,2 (22,7 + 6,5+ 1,5 + 3,5) in team salary for 7 players. To reach the 12 minimum roster spots, they would have to add 5 Incomplete Roster Cap Holds before hitting Free Agency. The Team total salary would be 38,7M (34,2 + 4,5M). The free cap space would be 70,3M. I simulated in http://www.shamsports.com/capulator?id=16204349705c898bfe3b736312691220. It worked out (despite they dont have updated the cap space to 109M). I had 2 FA to sign and I could pay the MAx for both . The capulator let you deduct 1 incomplete roster charge after signing the first FA. But you cant deduct while add the last one. You only is alowed to pay what you have left.

In http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm, I have found a rule that says that teams needs to complete a 13 roster players and there is a presumption that the Free Space left is to contract the next player. So you dont need to add a Cap Hold for the next player but we cant eliminate the Cap Hold added because other players.

But a user in Knicks board says Knicks could keep Jenkins (Team option 2M) as well, eliminating the need for an extra Incomplete Roster Cap Hold. The total salary would be 39,8M (22,7 + 6,5 + 1.5 + 3,5 + 2 + 4x0,9) and the cap space 68,2M. He is saying that rule dont apply anymore.

And another user in Knciks board says you have to save 70,85M to contract Durant and Irving and you cant elimate the Incomplete Roster Cap Holds while signing them due to timing reasons.

Thanks for the help.
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Re: Knicks Cap Space (Question about Incomplete Roster Charges Deduction) 

Post#2 » by DBoys » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:07 pm

Here's the methodology specific to the situation you are describing. Not gonna bother explaining the what's and why's of the rules, only gonna note this is the answer. Have done this countless times by hand over many years, and do it by spreadsheet now.

1 THE CONCEPT -- If you are fitting 2 players into cap room, you have to have (at least) 11 other roster slots filled. (If you are fitting 1 player into cap room, you have to have (at least) 12 other roster slots filled.)

2 FIGURE OUT THE 11 AND WHAT EACH COSTS - (I'm not going through the NYK list. You can make your own assumptions as to who will be in the mix and who won't.) Those 11 can be players with salaries, unsigned 1st rd draft picks at 120% of scale salary, players with options that you think will be picked up, players you think will be resigned using Bird rights (at their cap hold amount), etc. Each of those pieces would be considered as filling a roster slot, because when that salary is later applied, that slot will indeed be filled. If you have more than 11 that you consider to be part of the ongoing equation, you count them all, not just 11. (Note: Any dead money for already-waived players has to be included too, but it does not fill a roster spot, of course.)

3 ADD THE COSTS - You fill up that many slots, and where there are any unfilled, you insert an empty roster slot charge (which will be a hair under 900K this summer). You add the costs up, and see what's left. Obviously you will need to have 70.85M left to fit in both of your 2 max deals.

4 BOTTOM LINE ON REST OF THE ROSTER - With a 109M salary cap, if the total for the 11 (or more) comes to 38.15M or less, there will be cap room left for those 2 max deals you want to add.
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Re: Knicks Cap Space (Question about Incomplete Roster Charges Deduction) 

Post#3 » by Hopper15 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:03 am

Warriors offer their 2020 1st rounder along with a 4 year maxed KD in a sign and trade in exchange for a TPE and a top 55 protected 2020 2nd rounder. Deal?
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Re: Knicks Cap Space (Question about Incomplete Roster Charges Deduction) 

Post#4 » by DBoys » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:15 am

PS - I took a quick look at the numbers.

1 My main takeaway is that you guys are probably 2 months early on creating specific numbers to analyze the details of what's doable (and maybe likely) for NY this summer and what's not. Why? Because until May 14, you won't know what you have to set aside for the draft pick. And the difference between pick 1 and pick 5 (the range of possibilities) is $3M ($8.73M or $5.73M).

2 But in the meantime, I think the NY game plan will be to have enough cap room for signing Durant-Irving in free agency, followed by having enough salary to trade for Anthony Davis. It's tricky, but there's a sweet spot where it's all doable.

3 Trier has a Team Option for 3.5M, so by July 1 he'll either have a 3.5M salary, or he'll be a free agent with a much larger cap hold than that. To enhance their ability to have matching salary to trade for AD, I think they will exercise their Team Option.

4 They have left themselves with several other choices to keep in the mix, or not. It looks like which pieces they keep will be determined by the salary of the 1st round pick. If they get pick 5, they need to have extra salaries on the books. If they get pick one, far fewer. Gotta land in that in-between sweet spot. Obviously, the ability of the player will also be a major consideration, because they will want the most talent possible to either swap to NO or keep (if they can't make the trade).

5 If there is a player with a Team Option who does not fit financially, but who has real value at the TO price, maybe they will try to swap him in June for a 2nd round pick.

6 Would the Knicks really trade Zion if they got pick 1? Good question. It would certainly be a great "problem" for them to have, and might be decided by what Durant and Irving prefer. (I'm guessing that the answer would be, "If you want me to sign, get AD; we want to win immediately.")
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Re: Knicks Cap Space (Question about Incomplete Roster Charges Deduction) 

Post#5 » by Richard4444 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:24 pm

DBoys wrote:PS - I took a quick look at the numbers.

1 My main takeaway is that you guys are probably 2 months early on creating specific numbers to analyze the details of what's doable (and maybe likely) for NY this summer and what's not. Why? Because until May 14, you won't know what you have to set aside for the draft pick. And the difference between pick 1 and pick 5 (the range of possibilities) is $3M ($8.73M or $5.73M).

I think the difference between pick1 and pick5 is higher because the need for a 120% Cap Hold. Pick1 is due to 9,75M and Pick5 is due to a 6,4M.

2 But in the meantime, I think the NY game plan will be to have enough cap room for signing Durant-Irving in free agency, followed by having enough salary to trade for Anthony Davis. It's tricky, but there's a sweet spot where it's all doable.
Agree

3 Trier has a Team Option for 3.5M, so by July 1 he'll either have a 3.5M salary, or he'll be a free agent with a much larger cap hold than that. To enhance their ability to have matching salary to trade for AD, I think they will exercise their Team Option.
Agree

4 They have left themselves with several other choices to keep in the mix, or not. It looks like which pieces they keep will be determined by the salary of the 1st round pick. If they get pick 5, they need to have extra salaries on the books. If they get pick one, far fewer. Gotta land in that in-between sweet spot. Obviously, the ability of the player will also be a major consideration, because they will want the most talent possible to either swap to NO or keep (if they can't make the trade).
Agree

5 If there is a player with a Team Option who does not fit financially, but who has real value at the TO price, maybe they will try to swap him in June for a 2nd round pick.
Is anyone interested in Jenkins or Henry for a 2 pick or a 2 pick swap? Trier and Frank could have late 1pick value. .

6 Would the Knicks really trade Zion if they got pick 1? Good question. It would certainly be a great "problem" for them to have, and might be decided by what Durant and Irving prefer. (I'm guessing that the answer would be, "If you want me to sign, get AD; we want to win immediately.")
The trade for Davis can only take place after 30 days of the Zion signing, after getting Durant and Irving under contract. Does the Knicks would swap Zion only to keep a friendly enviromment with their new stars? Assuming Knicks will try to land AD for Zion, I think Knicks would try to lowball the Pelicans if is possible.
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Re: Knicks Cap Space (Question about Incomplete Roster Charges Deduction) 

Post#6 » by Richard4444 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:27 pm

DBoys wrote:Here's the methodology specific to the situation you are describing. Not gonna bother explaining the what's and why's of the rules, only gonna note this is the answer. Have done this countless times by hand over many years, and do it by spreadsheet now.

1 THE CONCEPT -- If you are fitting 2 players into cap room, you have to have (at least) 11 other roster slots filled. (If you are fitting 1 player into cap room, you have to have (at least) 12 other roster slots filled.)

2 FIGURE OUT THE 11 AND WHAT EACH COSTS - (I'm not going through the NYK list. You can make your own assumptions as to who will be in the mix and who won't.) Those 11 can be players with salaries, unsigned 1st rd draft picks at 120% of scale salary, players with options that you think will be picked up, players you think will be resigned using Bird rights (at their cap hold amount), etc. Each of those pieces would be considered as filling a roster slot, because when that salary is later applied, that slot will indeed be filled. If you have more than 11 that you consider to be part of the ongoing equation, you count them all, not just 11. (Note: Any dead money for already-waived players has to be included too, but it does not fill a roster spot, of course.)


3 ADD THE COSTS - You fill up that many slots, and where there are any unfilled, you insert an empty roster slot charge (which will be a hair under 900K this summer). You add the costs up, and see what's left. Obviously you will need to have 70.85M left to fit in both of your 2 max deals.

4 BOTTOM LINE ON REST OF THE ROSTER - With a 109M salary cap, if the total for the 11 (or more) comes to 38.15M or less, there will be cap room left for those 2 max deals you want to add.



So the secret is to have 38,15M and 11 players in the books. Thanks.
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Re: Knicks Cap Space (Question about Incomplete Roster Charges Deduction) 

Post#7 » by DBoys » Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:21 am

I think the difference between pick1 and pick5 is higher because the need for a 120% Cap Hold. Pick1 is due to 9,75M and Pick5 is due to a 6,4M.

I already gave you the numbers, and used the relevant 120%. The difference between pick 1 and pick 5 (the range of possibilities) is $3M ($8.73M or $5.73M).

Is anyone interested in Jenkins or Henry for a 2 pick or a 2 pick swap? Trier and Frank could have late 1 pick value. .

NY will willingly give them whichever pieces they want. Literally: "Hello, Pelicans. You can create your trade. Take everyone you want. You can do the math, we will keep whichever pieces you want and get rid of the rest, one way or the other, with one limitation: we can only have $X of total salary before we make that trade." So with NO getting what they want, and NY being forced to get rid of the rest in June or very early July for a pick (can't take back salary) before they can have room to sign KD-Kyrie, the leftovers are likely to be closer to scrubs than to wanted players.

The trade for Davis can only take place after 30 days of the Zion signing, after getting Durant and Irving under contract. Does the Knicks would swap Zion only to keep a friendly enviromment with their new stars? Assuming Knicks will try to land AD for Zion, I think Knicks would try to lowball the Pelicans if is possible.

It is a certainty that NO would not accept any deal without the NY 1st rounder, say Zion. And salary match wouldn't work without literally every player that is left, so how do you lowball NO when you can't leave anyone out? So it would be just be a decision of AD vs Zion, and then the rest is pretty locked in.

IMO NY has to negotiate this deal with NO in June, agree to terms, and then stick to them, or they will screw themselves big time. There is no other avenue to AD, where they can screw NO and then get him another way. Mess up that trade relationship and it's over. And if they were to commit to KD and Kyrie that AD is coming, and then sign them using that promise, they need to have that deal in cement also, whatever it takes. All they can do is screw the franchise if they get cute.
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Re: Knicks Cap Space (Question about Incomplete Roster Charges Deduction) 

Post#8 » by Richard4444 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:53 am

DBoys wrote: think the difference between pick1 and pick5 is higher because the need for a 120% Cap Hold. Pick1 is due to 9,75M and Pick5 is due to a 6,4M.

I already gave you the numbers, and used the relevant 120%. The difference between pick 1 and pick 5 (the range of possibilities) is $3M ($8.73M or $5.73M).

Strange. Are not rookies Cap Hold 120% of this scale? https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/info/rookie_scale/2020? Also Capulators Cap Hold is higher than yours and they used 108M Cap Space.


The trade for Davis can only take place after 30 days of the Zion signing, after getting Durant and Irving under contract. Does the Knicks would swap Zion only to keep a friendly enviromment with their new stars? Assuming Knicks will try to land AD for Zion, I think Knicks would try to lowball the Pelicans if is possible.

It is a certainty that NO would not accept any deal without the NY 1st rounder, say Zion. And salary match wouldn't work without literally every player that is left, so how do you lowball NO when you can't leave anyone out? So it would be just be a decision of AD vs Zion, and then the rest is pretty locked in.

IMO NY has to negotiate this deal with NO in June, agree to terms, and then stick to them, or they will screw themselves big time. There is no other avenue to AD, where they can screw NO and then get him another way. Mess up that trade relationship and it's over. And if they were to commit to KD and Kyrie that AD is coming, and then sign them using that promise, they need to have that deal in cement also, whatever it takes. All they can do is screw the franchise if they get cute.

I see your point. I fear if Knciks promess to Durant and Irving trade Zion for Davis, Knicks cant lowball Pelicans. The offer has to be serious. But Knicks can not overpay for Davis either, especially if they get Zion and feel their offer is far better than others contenders offer. They cant offer a crazy 7 asset offer if they include Zion. It is madness and Durant and Irving need to understand that. Knciks can not let Pelicans take advantage of Knciks promess to Durant and Irving.

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Re: Knicks Cap Space (Question about Incomplete Roster Charges Deduction) 

Post#9 » by Ballerhogger » Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:26 pm

The trade of all draft trades . At draft night the Knicks have first pick . Three teams involved here lots of movement and roster hauling.
The Knicks Trade
Lance Thomas
Mario Henjoza
Frank Nitalina
D.Datson and 2nd rounder pick (2021) To Memphis

Knicks trade Mitchell Robinson , Luke Kornet and 1# 2019 draft pick to the Pelicans..

Memphis trades
Chandler Parsons to Pelicans and sends 2 round draft pick to pelicans

The Pelicans Trade
Anthony Davis
.
The Knicks then sign Kyrie Irving and Kevin durant as the new big 3 of the league . Durant gets the max and Kyrie takes a small paycut . The Knicks now have
PG Kyrie Irving
SG Dennis Smith JR
SF Kevin Durant /Kevin Knox
PF Anthony Davis
C vet min

Pelicans have
Jrue Holiday
SG Etu Moore
SF Zion Williamson most likely
PF Julius Randle / Luke Kornet
C Mitchell Robinson


Memphis now has
Mike Conely
Avery Bradley / F. Ntilkina
Lance Thomas/ Mario Hezonja
PF Jaret Jackson
Center


A big home run deal for the Knicks and pelicans max out their AD value . Memphis gets out of Parsons deal and get promising young players out of it.

I release Kornet and Mario are UFA could they be used in S/T ? I couldn’t really find any other team pair them with
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Re: Knicks Cap Space (Question about Incomplete Roster Charges Deduction) 

Post#10 » by Richard4444 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:59 pm

Ballerhogger wrote:The trade of all draft trades . At draft night the Knicks have first pick . Three teams involved here lots of movement and roster hauling.
The Knicks Trade
Lance Thomas
Mario Henjoza
Frank Nitalina
D.Datson and 2nd rounder pick (2021) To Memphis

Knicks trade Mitchell Robinson , Luke Kornet and 1# 2019 draft pick to the Pelicans..

Memphis trades
Chandler Parsons to Pelicans and sends 2 round draft pick to pelicans

The Pelicans Trade
Anthony Davis
.
The Knicks then sign Kyrie Irving and Kevin durant as the new big 3 of the league . Durant gets the max and Kyrie takes a small paycut . The Knicks now have
PG Kyrie Irving
SG Dennis Smith JR
SF Kevin Durant /Kevin Knox
PF Anthony Davis
C vet min

Pelicans have
Jrue Holiday
SG Etu Moore
SF Zion Williamson most likely
PF Julius Randle / Luke Kornet
C Mitchell Robinson


Memphis now has
Mike Conely
Avery Bradley / F. Ntilkina
Lance Thomas/ Mario Hezonja
PF Jaret Jackson
Center


A big home run deal for the Knicks and pelicans max out their AD value . Memphis gets out of Parsons deal and get promising young players out of it.

I release Kornet and Mario are UFA could they be used in S/T ? I couldn’t really find any other team pair them with


I dont think you can trade at draft night players without contract for 2019/20 as Mario and Kornet. I am still in doubt about team options players like Lance. Anyway, I think Pelicans can get more for Davis. I dont get the reason to envolve Memphis in the deal. If is possible to deal Lance, and if we can count Zions Cap Hold as salary. I could see a Zion + Lance + Mitch + Dotson for Davis or a Zion + Lance + Frank/Dennis/Knox + 2 FRP for Davis. And if we trade for Davis in draft night, we would not have enough Cap to persuit 2 Max FA.
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Re: Knicks Cap Space (Question about Incomplete Roster Charges Deduction) 

Post#11 » by DBoys » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:49 pm

Strange. Are not rookies Cap Hold 120% of this scale? https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/info/rookie_scale/2020? Also Capulators Cap Hold is higher than yours and they used 108M Cap Space.


1 I used 109M salary cap.
2 I went back and did some checking, and you're right. There is a special increase being added to the rookie scale, that I had overlooked. Sorry about that.
3 For the NY purposes, it shouldn't matter that much. It just means there will be a different mix of players to put in the "everyone else" bucket to send to NO (or keep) after signing KD and Kyrie.

I see your point. I fear if Knciks promess to Durant and Irving trade Zion for Davis, Knicks cant lowball Pelicans. The offer has to be serious. But Knicks can not overpay for Davis either, especially if they get Zion and feel their offer is far better than others contenders offer. They cant offer a crazy 7 asset offer if they include Zion. It is madness and Durant and Irving need to understand that. Knciks can not let Pelicans take advantage of Knciks promess to Durant and Irving.

1 While I understand your point, consider that what they pay NO could be the price for all 3 of AD, KD, and Kyrie. Because KD and Kyrie may say they only come if NY gets AD. Now would it be worth it? And what would you pay for that trio?
2 If you want to pay KD and Kyrie and trade for AD, the idea that you would hold players out of the trade offer is not only a problem in getting the trade done, but NY has to send everyone they have in order for the trade to be NBA-legal. There's not any way to negotiate which "everyone" package you offer, since everyone means everyone.
3 My conspiracy theory about the trade for AD is that when NO said "We have no interest in Porzingis, and his huge salary ahead after a big injury" that NY then decided to turn KP into "pieces" that NO would want, and therefore traded him. What pieces? 2 Dallas picks and DSJ. So I think this idea is pretty much the same offer as always, only redesigned to be more desirable to NO.

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