RealGM

Here is how it broke down (the new correct version thanks to Mac, BG, Dunk, FG, & ESPN trade machine):

Cavs Perspective (Two deals):
First part:
Outgoing:
Hughes - $12,000,084
Gooden - $6,453,415
Marshall - $5,566,965
Newble - $3,441,900
Brown - $1,044,120
Total Outgoing - $28,506,484
Max Incoming - $35,733,105

Incoming:
Wallace - $15,500,000
Szczerbiak - $12,275,000
Smith - $5,205,000
West - $1,889,760
2nd round pick
Total Incoming - $34,869,760

2nd part is Cedric Simmons for essentially nothing, creating a TPE worth $1,629,120.

Bulls Perspective (two deals):
1st part:
Outgoing:
Ben Wallace - $15,500,000
Adrian Griffin - $1,593,000
2nd round pick
Total Outgoing - $17,093,000
max Incoming - $21,466,250

Incoming:
Larry Hughes - $12,000,084
Drew Gooden - $6,453,415
Cedric Simmons - $1,629,120
Shannon Brown - $1,044,120
Total Incoming - $21,126,739

2nd part:

Joe Smith for essentially nothing, creates a TPE for $5,205,000

Seattle's Perspective (three parts):
1st part:
Outgoing:
Wally Szczerbiak - $12,275,000

Incoming:
Donyell Marshall - $5,566,965
Ira Newble - $3,441,900
Total Incoming - $9,008,865

*Creates a TPE worth $3,266,135 for Seattle

2nd part is Delonte West for essentially nothing, creating a TPE of $1,889,760.

3rd part is acquiring Adrian Griffin using the TPE from the prior Ray Allen trade.

Okay, just want to test what I hopefully learned from this past week.

The reason all these exceptions are able to be made is:

The original overall 11 player trade worked under the 125% Traded Player Exception for all three teams.

At that point, the teams were able to split it up into non-simultaneous and simultaneous trades as long as the complimentary simultaneous trades fit under the 125% rule. The resulting TPE's from the non-simultaneous trades are in the exact amount of that particular player's salary since non-simultaneous trades must be 100% +100K.

Please tell me my understanding of it is at least mostly right.

^ the big trade technically doesn't have to work - that was my fault and I was wrong.

In this case, however, the big trade works for all 3 teams.

Lakerfan, I calculated the trade the same way you did. There were a few potential other ways from Cleveland's side that came very close to working, but were off by a little bit, so I think that's the best way to do it. I do have different salary figures than you, though for a couple different players.

Seattle also could have received 2 TPE's if they executed the deal differently that would have netted them about $300K more than the full TPE you showed. I know in general teams take the big TPE since they can split it, but I guess it would be possible that Seattle would be interesting in acquiring 2 players under the smaller TPE's for overall more $ than the big TPE (though very unlikely). In any way, that would be an example of when Seattle would have to tell the league how they want the trade structured for them.

First of all, that's only the base salaries for Hughes and Marshall as both of them are owners of some team-related incentives. I'd try to figure that out before I start throwing exceptions all over the place.

Macedonianbull wrote:First of all, that's only the base salaries for Hughes and Marshall as both of them are owners of some team-related incentives. I'd try to figure that out before I start throwing exceptions all over the place.

Please feel free to share any info you may have regarding incentives, but as far as I know those type of things are not readily available.

Just as a sidenote, I was simply trying to breakdown the deal to the best of my knowledge, and if someone makes a suggestion that something is not right with my calculations then I would certainly fix it and even perhaps learn something in the process.

Also, I don't take anything you say personally because I have learned from past discussions that you seem to be a hater for the most part. Well anyways, have a nice day and if you have anything constructive or positive to say then I will certainly reply. Otherwise don't expect any more responses from me.

Okay. This is what most of us know (should know).

Larry Hughes has $2 million bonus for his team reaching 49 victories each season. That means if he met those incentives in 2006-07 (and he did), the next season that same incentives are labeled as 'likely achievable' and therefore they count against the cap next (this) season.

That means $12 million is Hughes' base salary and his actual salary is around $14 million and maybe even more (has another incentive for making playoffs).

You are trying to play with numbers and I don't know if you aware that here, a single dollar can make a lot of difference. Let alone $2 million like in Hughes' case.

Donyell Marshall is a similar case. He has a playoff incentive worth around $400,000 each season I think.

You would be wrong Mac..Laker Fan has his salary correct.

Here are the ones that are wrong:
Marshall is really $5,566,965
Griffin is really $1,593,000
Wally is really $12,275,000

Griffin and Wally were almost right on anyway.... if there were any trade bonuses involved, then my numbers are not completley accurate, but they account for incentives from last year. 2007-2008 incentives actually earned that are unlikely bonuses will only affect the luxury tax and have nothing to do with trade value

Macedonianbull wrote:First of all, that's only the base salaries for Hughes and Marshall as both of them are owners of some team-related incentives. I'd try to figure that out before I start throwing exceptions all over the place.

I'd like to echo what bgwiz said. Any incentives that Hughes and/or Marshall earn for their play this season have absolutely no bearing on their salaries for trade purposes. They only affect team salary for luxury tax purposes at the end of this season, whether they in fact get paid the bonus at the end of the season, and each of their individual cap numbers next seasons.

You should get a better understanding of how incentives work before you start throwing criticisms all over the place of some pretty excellent analysis and numbers crunching.

I fixed the errors that were pointed out, Adrian Griffin was a typo and for some reason my numbers for Wally & Marshall were off slightly, but in the end the configuration of the deal still works.

I was unaware of the incentives on Hughes and Marshall and I am not going to pretend like I left them off on purpose. I just didn't know they existed, but Dunk & BG say that they do not impact the players value as it pertains to trades. I couldn't find anything specific in Larry Coon's FAQ's and I quickly glanced through the CBA and couldn't find anything either to confirm this. So for now I will leave the breakdown as is, but obviously if the incentives are supposed to be included then I will have to make some changes.

One quick question, is there a resource that I am missing that has the incentives for players? I of course want to have as accuarate of numbers as possible. So any info would be greatly appreciated.

One more thing (OT), does anybody now the details of Jameer Nelson's contract extension?

Okay.

Dunkenstein has a reputation as far as I am concerned and I believe him.

However, Seattle Post-Intelligencer has come out and written that Seattle generated two exceptions out of this deal, $3 million and $1.8 million, while they have used their existing $2.2 million trade exception from their Ray Allen to Boston deal.

That would be something like ...

Delonte West for Nothing ($1.8 million TPE)
Adrian Griffin and his $1.6 million fiti into their $2.2 million TPE.
Wally Szczerbiak for Newble and Marshall ($3.3 million TPE)

* Jameer Nelson's extension is flat. $7.6 million a season I believe.

Also, I have D.Marshall at $6,016,965 this season???
My numbers come from CNNSI site.

If you got your 2007-08 numbers from CNNSi's Nov 2006 article, it was messed up for some reason. This is the 2nd concrete instance I've discovered where they were off base in numbers for this season (and of course presumably going forward.)

That leads me to believe they had someone's spreadsheet numbers, rather than actual "league sources" as they claimed.

Also, an observation about the opening post here needs to be made that the calculations don't reflect the use of any pre-existing TPEs in this trade, and to the extent that the teams had and used those, it can change the new TPE numbers as already noted, not only for SEA but also perhaps for other teams as well..

It's a funny thing but I have just noticed it.

The CNNSI's Marshall salary is exactly worth the correct salary of $5.6 million + the reported reached incentive for making the playoffs worth around $400,000.

I don't know what to think about it. I believe Dunkestein, but it puzzles me why they have updated Marshall's salary but didn't Hughes'.

^ because it's been reported wrong, that's why... trust me Marshall's salary was how i repoted it unless he had a trade bonus for that amount (which he wouldn't since SI would not factor that in last year)

that also disproves your point as well - SI published those salaries LAST YEAR, and they have not updated it since so that proves that they havent even taken 2006-2007 incentives into account.

And it also doesn't make sense to me why Seattle would use the $2.2 million TPE, when they can generate a legal trade that gives them the same large $3 mil plus TPE (so now they'd have the $3 mil TPE plus the $2.2 one you reported as opposed to the $1 plus TPE). The only reason, I guess, would be that the $2.2 one expires on June 28th, 2008 while they'd have until Feb 20th, 2009 to use the smaller one. Something tells me the Seattle guy is just speculating, but if this scenario is true, it's a great example of teams having to pick how to organize the trade TPE-wise from their own sides

I see your point. I guess you are right about Marshall's contract.
Of course, that 'feeling' you have that that CNNSI article is incomplete or something might just as well be false. Those numbers seem as close to being the right ones than anything else I have seen online.

I also think you answered your own question about the TPE's right there.

At that point in time, CNNSI's numbers were pretty accurate. But with bonuses, trade kickers, new signings, etc., they lose their validity over time.

As for any bonuses Marshall and Hughes had, saying what the nature of those bonuses are is usually just speculation on the part of newspaper reporters or posters on this board.

What I do know is that Hughes's current cap hold for 07-08 is the same as it was projected to be last season. That means that he either didn't achieve what were determined to be "unlikely" bonuses or did achieve what were determined to be "likely" bonuses.

As for Marshall, his 07-08 cap hold is actually $450K less than what it was projected to be last season. That can only mean that he failed to achieve what were determined to be "likely" bonuses last year and they became "unlikely" for this season.

*Jameer Nelson's extension may be flat, but Jessica Simpson isn't.

Here are the actual TPEs generated by the trade:

Chicago - $5,205,000 (Joe Smith salary)
Cleveland - $1,629,120 (Simmons salary)
Seattle - $3,266,135 (Wally's salary minus salaries of incoming players)

Dunkenstein wrote:Here are the actual TPEs generated by the trade:

Chicago - $5,205,000 (Joe Smith salary)
Cleveland - $1,629,120 (Simmons salary)
Seattle - $3,266,135 (Wally's salary minus salaries of incoming players)

Thanks, I have updated the original post. Although, I got a bit testy, this has been a very good / educational thread for me.

Dunkenstein wrote:Here are the actual TPEs generated by the trade:

Chicago - $5,205,000 (Joe Smith salary)
Cleveland - $1,629,120 (Simmons salary)
Seattle - $3,266,135 (Wally's salary minus salaries of incoming players)

Actually in addition to the Wally TPE, I just found out that Seattle also created a $1,889,760 TPE (West) and used part of the Ray Allen TPE to acquire Griffin.

Again, this just shows there are a myriad of ways a GM can structure a multi-player deal.

Dunkenstein wrote:-
Actually in addition to the Wally TPE, I just found out that Seattle also created a $1,889,760 TPE (West) and used part of the Ray Allen TPE to acquire Griffin.

Again, this just shows there are a myriad of ways a GM can structure a multi-player deal.

Yeah, that's the very thing lakerfan had already figured out for us in the opener...

*Creates a TPE worth $3,266,135 for Seattle

2nd part is Delonte West for essentially nothing, creating a TPE of $1,889,760.

3rd part is acquiring Adrian Griffin using the TPE from the prior Ray Allen trade."