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The Cavs may be looking to keep Joe Smith this year, we've already spent the majority of our MLE and have our BAE left, but I'm not looking to use either of those here. I'm looking to see what the NON-BIRD EXCEPTION entails.

First, I'm assuming Joe Smith is eligible to qualify for this for the Cavs. Although, I don't think he has a cap hold with us, so I don't know if he's considered "our free agent", even though we were the last team he played for, I know we don't have bird or early bird rights, but as I read it, that's where this exception comes in.

Second, I'm really confused as to the dollar amount that we'd be able to use from this exception to re-sign Joe Smith, because his situation is strange.

We traded him to OKC where he played until March with a salary of around 5 million dollars. Then he was bought in March. I'm not too sure, but I think he left almost everything he still was owed from OKC on the table, and then he came here and signed for the pro-rated portion of our remaining MLE(we had most of it available...we only spent 450k of it on Darnell Jackson's contract..so the pro-rated portion of ~5.3 million dollars).

Now, it says we can pay Joe Smith up to 120% of his previous years salary in the exception. What is that number? Is it 120% of the pro-rated portion of the MLE? Does it go on a game-by-game basis?(like a 120% raise per game for every game he's under contract or something like that) Is it the total amount he made last year between buy-outs/with OKC/with us? Is it just the salary he began with last year?

Any answers would be appreciated.

Now, it says we can pay Joe Smith up to 120% of his previous years salary in the exception. What is that number?

His previous salary was $1,200,000. 120% of $1,200,000 is $1,440.000. There's your upper limit. I think you've overthought this a bit.

Gotcha, thanks.

I see him listed with an unrenounced value of $825,497.

So the real question is, whether the allowable raise is based on the prorated portion that they actually got, or based on the "'whole season salary'' that got prorated down to something less?

And you're saying it is based on what they actually received, then?

Meanwhile, when they actually try to sign the guy during the season, it sounds like the required cap space or available exception remaining needs to fit the ''whole season salary.''

Relevant for Marbury as well.

chakdaddy wrote:Relevant for Marbury as well.

The only relevant thing for Marbury is that he's gone so far around the bend that he'll never play in the NBA again. At best he may get a job with Dennis Rodman's old team the Tijuana Dragons.

I emailed you Dunk at that entirely unlikely email address of yours. I just wanted you to know that.

Sham wrote:

Now, it says we can pay Joe Smith up to 120% of his previous years salary in the exception. What is that number?

His previous salary was $1,200,000. 120% of $1,200,000 is $1,440.000. There's your upper limit. I think you've overthought this a bit.

The Cavs may have only paid Joe $1,200,000, but that's less than 10 year vet min salary, so his actual salary must have been higher that $1.2 mil, no? Joe was signed with the MLE and the Cavs had roughly $3.5 Mil left on the MLE when they signed him. That would mean that Joe's actual salary would have had to be somewhere between $1,262,275 and $3.5 Mil.

The question is whether the Non-Bird exception is based on money paid to the player, or if it is based on salary amount before geting pro-rated.

Sham wrote:I emailed you Dunk at that entirely unlikely email address of yours. I just wanted you to know that.

Are you talking about his David.Stern@nba.com address?

LarryCoon wrote:

Sham wrote:I emailed you Dunk at that entirely unlikely email address of yours. I just wanted you to know that.

Are you talking about his David.Stern@nba.com address?

Larry, you know user names are supposed to remain anonymous.

LarryCoon wrote:I see him listed with an unrenounced value of $825,497.

Hi,
maybe I should open a new thread on this, but starting from this value of $825,497, I need a confirmation on the cap hold for minimum contracts.

* Is this $825,497 value the cap hold of Smith as "Portion of minimum salary not reimbursed by the league" used for the Free Agent Amount of any kind of free agent with a minimum salary ? (Link)
(I am OK with this value if he really played for a minimum contract last season)

By extension, same question with Hunter for ATL, with one year at the minimum:
* Is his Free Agent Amount:
- the 2-year veteran minimum (even if he only played 1 year at this moment) = 825,497,
- 120% of his last salary = $530,537 like some website report.
- the minimum contract for a 1-year veteran = $736,420


I have another example: Mario West
West is coming from his second year in ATL, but at a minimum salary.

In your FAQ, Larry, it says:

A restricted free agent counts against his team's salary cap by the greatest of:
* His free agent amount (as defined in the table above)
* The amount of his qualifying offer

The Q.O. for West is the greatest of:
- 125% of 711,517 (last salary) = 889,396
- new minimum for him + 175,000 = 825,497 + 175,000 = 1,000,497
So the Q.O. and his cap hold is 1,000,497.
(still OK with this value)

* But what would have been his Free Agent Amount, in case he did not get the Q.O. ?
130% of his last salary as Early Bird F.A. = 924,972
or
825,497 = "Portion of minimum salary not reimbursed by the league" because eve if he stayed under contract wih ATL for two years, his previous salary was a minimum salary.


I need confirmation on this case because I see a lot of different values in all the website.
In other words, for a player without Q.O. (UFA, or RFA to be but not getting a Q.O.), should we use the "Portion of minimum salary not reimbursed by the league" as long as the player is coming from a minimum salary ?

Thanks

From the info I have, as Larry points out above, Smith's unrenounced value (or cap hold) is $825,497.

West's is $1,000,497 (the amount of his QO).

Hunter's is $736,420 (no QO). He will count $825,497 against Atlanta's LT computation if they sign him and he is on their roster at the end of the season.

I still see him with a value of $1,440,000. Not that it will matter any more once he signs with the Hawks.

Thanks for the first answers.

Meanwhile, I still don't get any confirmation on the F.A. without Q.O., like West if he did not get his Q.O.

D21 wrote:* But what would have been his Free Agent Amount, in case he did not get the Q.O. ?
130% of his last salary as Early Bird F.A. = 924,972
or
825,497 = "Portion of minimum salary not reimbursed by the league" because eve if he stayed under contract wih ATL for two years, his previous salary was a minimum salary.

after reading the official text one more time:

Section 4. (d) (4)
Notwithstanding Section 4(d)(1)-(3) above, if the player’s prior Salary was equal to or less than the Minimum Player Salary applicable to such player, he will be included at the portion of the then-current Minimum Annual Salary applicable to such player that would not be reimbursed out of the League-wide benefits fund described in Article IV, Section 5(k).

- it shows why Hunter has a 1-year veteran minimum for his cap hold (" then-current Minimum Annual Salary applicable to such player "),
- it also confirms that if Joe Smith had a salary of 1,200,000 last year, this salary being lower than the minimum for a veteran like Smith ($1,262,275 for 2008-09) sets his cap hold at $825,497 (Portion not reimbursed by the league),
- and last, it would mean that West without a Q.O. should have a cap hold of $825,497 too, and not $924,972 (130% of his last salary as Early Bird F.A.).

Am I right on these last points ?

- it shows why Hunter has a 1-year veteran minimum for his cap hold (" then-current Minimum Annual Salary applicable to such player ")

Yes.

- it also confirms that if Joe Smith had a salary of 1,200,000 last year, this salary being lower than the minimum for a veteran like Smith ($1,262,275 for 2008-09) sets his cap hold at $825,497 (Portion not reimbursed by the league),

If Smith had a salary of $1,200,000 - which I'm almost willing to guarantee that he did - then his cap hold would be $1,440,000, which is 120% of that figure. And that's what I see him listed as.

- and last, it would mean that West without a Q.O. should have a cap hold of $825,497 too, and not $924,972 (130% of his last salary as Early Bird F.A.).

Yes.

If you'll allow me to self-promote for a minute, I have a list of cap holds (and an explanation as to what the bloody hell I'm talking about) here.

Thanks for your answers Sham, and your self-promotion, even if I already have your website bookmarked but forgot this page (very useful with all the unrenounced "retired" players).

Meanwhile, I still don't understand why you want to keep Joe Smith cap hold at 1,440,000.

The CBA seem to clearly show that a minimum contract, or a lower than minimum will set the cap hold as part not reimbursed.

If the minimum for a 10+ veteran was $1,262,275 last season, Joe Smith was under this amount, and should get a cap hold of $825,497 for 2009-10, from what I understand...

Section 4. (d) (4)
Notwithstanding Section 4(d)(1)-(3) above, if the player’s prior Salary was equal to or less than the Minimum Player Salary applicable to such player, he will be included at the portion of the then-current Minimum Annual Salary applicable to such player that would not be reimbursed out of the League-wide benefits fund described in Article IV, Section 5(k).

I don't see how you can keep the Non-Bird amount over that.

Yes I see that, but I'm just going off of what I see. And what I see is $1,440,000. I acknowledge that Larry and Dunk see differently, but I guess that means we're looking in different places.

Also, the minimum at the time he signed wasn't $1,262,275, because he signed in March, by which time it had prorated to a fraction of that.

I think I am starting to see from where you are seeing it !!!

Actually, I already thought about the fact that he signed later in the season, so for a supposed prorated amount, but as his amount was lower than the minimum (not prorated) for his class of veteran player, I automatically thought it was for a prorated minimum contract, which should be the only possibility to be at "less than the Minimum Player Salary ..." said in the CBA (if the Minimum is really is the minimum).

So it appears that Smith was signed using a part of the MLE, and later than I thought at first (in March to be exact), and that this money, for the remaining part of the season, gave him more than the prorated minimum he could sign.

From this POV, he was making more than the minimum salary, even if the amount is lower than the"annual" minimum, and at the end, his cap hold is 120% of 1,200,000 = 1,440,000.

Smith signed on March 5th. March 5th was the 129th day of the season. There were 42 days of the season left, including March 5th. Therefore, the 10 year or more veterans minimum salary at the time of Smith's signing was $311,856 (or $197,049 for cap purposes).

From this POV, it would mean that the CBA text has to be view like :

"if the player’s prior Salary was exactly, or a prorated portion of Minimum Player Salary applicable to such player, he will be included at the portion of the then-current Minimum Annual Salary applicable..."