Lebron's cap-hold if he opts out?

[Telfaire]

If Lebron doesn't opt out this summer, his 17,149,243 salary will count against the Cavs' cap. If he does opt out, what's his cap-hold?

[Three34]

The maximum.

[Dunkenstein]

The maximum.

Assuming the cap is $53M (the high end of the range predicted by D. Stern, esq.), the league maximum for a player with 7 years of service would be $15.9M. However, since a player's maximum salary can never be less than 105% of his previous year's salary, LeBron's maximum salary would be 105% of $15,779,912 or $16,568,907. So wouldn't that be his likely cap hold?

[Three34]

Well, yes. Thus, the maximum.

[answerthink]

My overly detailed and completely unnecessary addendum would be as follows... The section of the CBA which would deal with Lebron's cap hold is Art VII, Sec 4 (d)(5): "at no time shall a player’s Free Agent Amount exceed the Maximum Player Salary applicable to such player..."

"Maximum Player Salary" is not a defined term (another apparent error in the language of the CBA), but I would imagine it is safe to assume we all know the intent. Assuming the intent is as straightforward as it sounds, if Lebron opts out his cap hold would be based on 105% of his previous salary unless next year's salary cap were to be at least $59 million... at which point it would rise to 30% of the 48.04% cap.

[Three34]

Like I said. The maximum. Whatever is the highest amount that he can have, he shall have. What that figure will be is something we don't know yet, for it depends on what the cap does. But it'll probably be the 105% figure.

[Dunkenstein]

My overly detailed and completely unnecessary addendum . . .

I wouldn't expect anything less from you.

[answerthink]

I don't know if you're just joking around with me or not, but I actually thought you might find it interesting to know the salary cap level at which his cap hold starts shifting from 105% of his previous salary to 30% of the adjusted cap. It's not (what i consider) an easy calculation...

[FGump]

Regarding the original question: "What is Lebron's cap-hold if he opts out?"

The maximum.

^This.

Elegantly simple and accurate.

...LeBron's maximum salary would be 105% of $15,779,912 or $16,568,907....so that [would] be his likely cap hold

^And this.

Added relevant detail that might also be helpful.

THE REST - pointless irrelevancies based on hypotheticals that have absolutely no chance of happening and therefore merely muddle the thread.

[answerthink]

FGump,

I would disagree with your stance. The CBA does not define the word "Maximum Player Salary," so any answer provided (unless the responder had access to the league's intent, which perhaps some of us do) would be at most a very educated assumption.

To simply state that Lebron's cap hold, if he chooses to opt out, will be 105% of his previous salary is not completely accurate. The best answer, in my opinion, would be: 105% of his previous salary unless the salary cap reaches approximately $59 million, at which point his cap hold would become 30% of the adjusted cap.

I typically respond with references to the CBA so that the person who asked the question can form his own judgment, as opposed to simply assuming the response is correct. I would think you of all people would understand why that is important.

[FGump]

You said your words here are an "overly detailed and completely unnecessary addendum." I agree wholeheartedly with that.

The questioner simply wanted to know what Lebron's cap hold will be, if he opts out, and the answer is $16,568,907. The rest is merely irrelevancy that would be useful only in an alternate reality.

[FGump]

The CBA does not define the word "Maximum Player Salary," ....

You mean other than the perhaps 1000-1500 words it has on the subject of "Maximum Annual Salary" in which it defines the term, correct?

The goal here is not to stand up and cite all the sections of the CBA as in an oral exam of some sort to prove our individual or collective acumen, but rather to distill all that text into usable applications.

Sham referred him to a calculation of the player's Max Salary, and Dunk did the calculation for him.

At that point, nothing remained to be said on the topic - and you said it.

[answerthink]

I most definitely acknowledged my response as being overly detailed and unnecessary to most of us, which is why I stated it as such. I included it because, for those of us who care to be technical, the true answer is that unless we have access to league intent, the best we can do is make a very educated guess. And yes, of course I do. The term "Maximum Player Salary" is not the same as "Maximum Annual Salary."

The best answer to the question for the general audience, in my opinion, is: $16,568,907 unless the salary cap reaches approximately $59 million, at which point it rises (to 30% of the adjusted cap).

[FGump]

The CBA does not define the word "Maximum Player Salary" .... So if it is never defined by the CBA, how in the world are we able to ascertain what various players' max salaries are? Voodoo?

The term "Maximum Player Salary" is not the same as "Maximum Annual Salary." ...So you are asserting that the 1000-1500 words the CBA uses to clarify the various "maximum annual salary" parameters in each and every new contract - with a preface applying it to all player contracts without exception - does NOT thereby define the term Maximum Player Salary when it's used in various places throughout the CBA, and that merely because the term itself is not in the list of definitions of technical terms it is somehow undefined and uncertain as to its meaning when used?

~shaking my head in utter amazement~

[answerthink]

Because maximum player salaries are determined under Art II, Sec 7, entitled "Maximum Annual Salary." Player salaries are very different concepts than player free agent amounts, which are covered in different sections of the CBA.

I am not making that assertion in any way. The only assertion I am making is that the language in the CBA regarding the free agent amounts associated with max contracts is apparently incorrect.

While you may be "shaking your head in utter amazement," your legal skills appear to be failing you.

[FGump]

So you are still saying that when the CBA says "at no time shall a player’s Free Agent Amount exceed the Maximum Player Salary applicable to such player" that it is vague what it means by "Maximum Player Salary applicable to such player"? And you are further saying that the section pertaining to the "maximum annual salary" for each and every player would not be definitive for such a context?

You're trying so hard to be the "smartest guy in the room" that you're being a complete dumazz in your assertions here. Get your head out.

If said extensive section, Maximum Annual Salary being applied to contracts in A II- S 7, does not define Maximum Player Salary as referenced in the free agent amounts, then what chapter and verse of the CBA do you think does?

Or, be more specific. Dunk answered the question that Lebron's cap hold will be $16,568,907, per the applicable section of Article II Sec 7. But you are saying that's not the proper place to determine the Maximum Player Salary when it comes to cap holds. So what should he have said instead, and on what basis that is not contained in that very section that appears to define a player's maximum salary?

[answerthink]

I am saying that since "Maximum Player Salary" is not defined, we can only make a very educated guess as to what is meant by that term. I would imagine it is exceedingly likely that the interpretations provided herein are correct. But that does not change the fact that the CBA appears to be in error.

I believe the intent of the CBA in regards to Art VII, Sec 4 (d)(5) was to suggest that a player's free agent amount cannot exceed the "Maximum Annual Salary" applicable to such player in the first season of a new contract.

I would suggest that you not comment on my intentions because you can't possibly know what they are. I would offer that my intentions on the board are solely to provide answers to people's questions and get answers to my own... strictly noble pursuits as I see it. I do not believe I have ever used any knowledge I have acquired to treat anybody with disrespect (something I would think you could not say).

[FGump]

I would suggest that you not comment on my intentions because you can't possibly know what they are.

I'll draw my conclusions based on your actions. You've regularly been a less-than-collegial nitpicking twit whenever you've entered conversations here, with a tone and snide references that repeatedIy imply you think you know it all and are here to show up the rest of us when possible. If you say that isn't your intent, then it's up to you to change your actions to reflect your intent.

And if you don't think Maximum Salary has an objective meaning that can be ascertained without being put in the glossary as a technical term - especially when the CBA goes to great length to define it - then you're not as smart as you think you are. The CBA makes it very clear what Maximum Player Salary means. Maximum Annual Salary - in a section about player salary in contracts - clearly is defining Maximum Player Salary, and the preface makes it further obvious: "Notwithstanding any other provision of this Agreement, no Player Contract entered into after the date of this Agreement may provide for a Salary plus Unlikely Bonuses in the first Season covered by the Contract that exceeds the following amounts:.... " If someone is too doltish to understand it when it's clearly laid out in such fashion then that's on them, not an error in the document.

Come on. You screwed up. We all know it. It's obvious to me by now, and I'm sure to everyone else as well, that you just simply erred when saying the CBA fails to define Max Player Salary because you didn't find it in the easy lookup place, and now you are going to great pains (and lots of double-talk) to try to act like you were right and it's not saying what it says. You can admit it, we all know.

[answerthink]

Allow me to take a first step in changing my actions. If anybody on this board ever got the impression from any of my posts that I was "a less-than-collegial nitpicking twit" whenever I've entered conversations here, with a tone and snide references that repeatedIy imply I think I know it all and are here to show up the rest of us when possible, than I whole-heartedly and sincerely apologize. I have great respect for anybody who takes time out of his/her day to help answer people's questions, particularly those that have been doing so for five years or more. I mean that through and through. I strive only to help educate people as I would hope they would do for me when I have questions.

I would be interested to see if you were willing to make the same sort of declaration. In the past, you have called my responses "nonsensical" and "wrong" and used bold, italized and/or capitalized terms to make your point. This is the sort of stuff I feel are all the things you describe above. The funny thing, however, is that in every instance you have done so, you have ultimately been proven wrong. I have never brought this up before because my intent is not to prove you wrong but to help answer people's questions.

I will say again... the term "Maximum Player Salary" is a capitalized term in the CBA without a definition. That is an objective fact. That is an error which anybody with a legal background can attest to. There is simply no ambiguity.

To call me wrong yet again is shaky ground for you. I would encourage you to read each and every topic in which you and I have disagreed, and see for yourself who was ultimately incorrect in regards to the language of the CBA.

I am not suggesting I don't make mistakes. I have made mistakes on this site before, and when they are corrected I make it a point to thank those that have corrected me.

[Three34]

Who here is actually a lawyer, anyway?