Re: Julius Randle, Donte DiVincenzo Nearing Returns For Wolves

[RealGM Wiretap]

The Minnesota Timberwolves have some reinforcements on the way for the playoff push. Julius Randle and Donte DiVincenzo are both closing in returning from injuries. Both Randle and DiVincenzo could return this week during the Timberwolves road trip that wraps up on Sunday.

Randle has missed nearly a month of action with a groin strain. In 48 games, the veteran forward has averaged 18.9 points, 7.2 rebounds and 4.5 assists per game.

DiVincenzo has been out since mid-January due to a toe injury. Before getting injured, the combo guard had been put into the Wolves starting lineup. On the season, DiVincenzo is averaging 11.0 points, 3.7 rebounds and 3.6 assists per game. The veteran guard had broken out of a shooting slump before going out with the toe injury.

Via Shams Charania/ESPN

[Pickled Prunes]

It's interesting that a lot of people blame Randle for how poorly MIN has played this season. MIN is 27-21 (.563) with him and 4-6 (.400) without him. When a team struggles, it is rarely one players fault.

[Luv those Knicks]

It's interesting that a lot of people blame Randle for how poorly MIN has played this season. MIN is 27-21 (.563) with him and 4-6 (.400) without him. When a team struggles, it is rarely one players fault.

Randle can be a frustrating player to watch. Low efficiency scorer and a bit of a ball hog and sometimes falls asleep on defense, but that said, he mostly seems to win. He plays hard. He'll battle it out physically with the other team's big-men. He rebounds. He stretches the defense and sometimes commands double teams and he's a solid passer too. I don't think he gets enough credit. Warts and all, he's a solid player.

And Donte . . . the Knicks miss Donte. We miss Isiah Hartenstein too, maybe even more, but there's a lot of love for Donte.

Bridges & KAT are better players, but the 3 key players the Knicks lost/traded are missed. (Randle, Donte, I-Hart). We were bigger and tougher with I-Hart/Mitch at center, Randle at PF and OGA at SF. That was a bruising front-court. This year's team might be better, but we lost a lot too, not to mention the 5 picks.

Mini might feel they lost even more, trading KAT, and they probably did. But I miss Randle. He was frustrating, but he was solid and he helped us win a lot of games.

I'm curious who'll offer him a contract next year and for how much, assuming he opts out.

[shrink]

It's interesting that a lot of people blame Randle for how poorly MIN has played this season. MIN is 27-21 (.563) with him and 4-6 (.400) without him. When a team struggles, it is rarely one players fault.

You’re right, and so much of that isn’t Randle’s fault.

When he arrived Ant told him to just play his game, and the whole team would adapt around him. The problem was, that Randle prefers a pondering dribble dependent drive to the post. He’s good at it too. But this created less ball movement, and Ant responded by not passing as much as well, and the offense tended to stagnate as people just stood around.

However, in the four weeks before his injury, Finch started pulling Randle early as a starter, and getting him back on the court with Naz, NAW and DDV, where he was running and playing more point forward. This was something Randle really hadn’t been asked much to do, but he trusts Finch from his NOP time, and he excelled with a renewed passion for the game. His numbers dipped a little, but the team’s rose, and Randle once again looked happy and motivated to play defense.

MIN desperately needs Randle’s size out there, but reintegrating him is a little worrisome, with Naz playing so well. This team wants to be in sync by the time the playoffs role around, and JR will play an important role on how far the Wolves get.

[Pickled Prunes]

It's interesting that a lot of people blame Randle for how poorly MIN has played this season. MIN is 27-21 (.563) with him and 4-6 (.400) without him. When a team struggles, it is rarely one players fault.

You’re right, and so much of that isn’t Randle’s fault.

When he arrived Ant told him to just play his game, and the whole team would adapt around him. The problem was, that Randle prefers a pondering dribble dependent drive to the post. He’s good at it too. But this created less ball movement, and Ant responded by not passing as much as well, and the offense tended to stagnate as people just stood around.

However, in the four weeks before his injury, Finch started pulling him early as a starter, and getting him back on the court with Naz, NAW and DDV, where he was running and playing more point forward. This was something Randle really hadn’t been asked much to do, but he trusts Finch from his NOP games, and he excelled with a renewed passion for the game. His numbers dipped a little, but the team’s rose, and Randle once again looked happy and motivated to play defense.

MIN desperately needs Randle’s size out there, but reintegrating him is a little worrisome, with Naz playing so well. This team wants to be in sync by the time the playoffs role around, and JR will play an important role on how far the Wolves get.

Randle's fit with Gobert on offense isn't easy or seamless. They want to be high and low post respectively and it gets clogged up. It's up to the coaching staff to set up schemes that provide some space; position them on opposite sides of the paint or get Gobert to set some off-ball screens on the week side. The first season of KAT and Gobert didn't look so smooth either. Randle has a completely different skill set than KAT. If they plan on keeping him around, I expect things to continue to improve.

Reid's ability to space the floor makes his fit with Randle a whole lot easier.

[Luv those Knicks]

Randle's fit with Gobert on offense isn't easy or seamless. They want to be high and low post respectively and it gets clogged up. It's up to the coaching staff to set up schemes that provide some space; position them on opposite sides of the paint or get Gobert to set some off-ball screens on the week side. The first season of KAT and Gobert didn't look so smooth either. Randle has a completely different skill set than KAT. If they plan on keeping him around, I expect things to continue to improve.

Reid's ability to space the floor makes his fit with Randle a whole lot easier.

The interesting question is whether Randle will use his opt-out. He seems to care about playing well and having a role on the team more than he cares about money. His 4 year, 117 million extension (signed August 2021) was coming off an all-NBA 2nd team and 8th in MVP voting. It was his best season, so that was actually a team friendly contract, and he said at the time that he took less money because he wanted to win. That smaller contract helped us get Brunson (I think), or maybe it helped us get Kemba Walker and Evan Fournier . . . so maybe it wasn't much help at all), still he deserves props for that.

His next year was considerably worse, and it was seen as a bad contract after the 2021-22 season, but when he signed it, it was team friendly.

He's got a 31 million player option for next year and most people think he'll opt out. But Randle is unpredictable. I'm not 100% sure he'll opt out if he likes his role in Mini. He probably does. The smart money is that he opts out and looks for a bigger and longer deal, but I wonder if there's a chance he doesn't and looks for one more year in Mini before testing free agency.

Maybe I'm way off, so, who knows.

[Pickled Prunes]

Randle's fit with Gobert on offense isn't easy or seamless. They want to be high and low post respectively and it gets clogged up. It's up to the coaching staff to set up schemes that provide some space; position them on opposite sides of the paint or get Gobert to set some off-ball screens on the week side. The first season of KAT and Gobert didn't look so smooth either. Randle has a completely different skill set than KAT. If they plan on keeping him around, I expect things to continue to improve.

Reid's ability to space the floor makes his fit with Randle a whole lot easier.

The interesting question is whether Randle will use his opt-out. He seems to care about playing well and having a role on the team more than he cares about money. His 4 year, 117 million extension (signed August 2021) was coming off an all-NBA 2nd team and 8th in MVP voting. It was his best season, so that was actually a team friendly contract, and he said at the time that he took less money because he wanted to win. That smaller contract helped us get Brunson (I think), or maybe it helped us get Kemba Walker and Evan Fournier . . . so maybe it wasn't much help at all), still he deserves props for that.

His next year was considerably worse, and it was seen as a bad contract after the 2021-22 season, but when he signed it, it was team friendly.

He's got a 31 million player option for next year and most people think he'll opt out. But Randle is unpredictable. I'm not 100% sure he'll opt out if he likes his role in Mini. He probably does. The smart money is that he opts out and looks for a bigger and longer deal, but I wonder if there's a chance he doesn't and looks for one more year in Mini before testing free agency.

Maybe I'm way off, so, who knows.

I wouldn't say that deal was "team friendly". It was probably fair value for his production. That next season was similar to this season. He went from playing point forward to waiting for his turn. That starting lineup seemed to change daily.

[Luv those Knicks]

I wouldn't say that deal was "team friendly". It was probably fair value for his production. That next season was similar to this season. He went from playing point forward to waiting for his turn. That starting lineup seemed to change daily.

At the time, it was reported as a "team friendly" deal.

https://empiresportsmedia.com/new-york-knicks/knicks-julius-randle-explains-why-he-signed-a-team-friendly-deal-to-stay-in-new-york/

I also disagree with you on the Randle's 21-22 season, but this needs a bit of history.

Randle was an up and coming player with the Lakers, but they didn't want to resign him because cap space for Anthony Davis mattered much more to them.

Then he signs a 1 year deal with the Nopes. (New Orleans Pelicans, but I call them the Nopes). He had a solid year but he was their 3rd option. Coming off his first 20 PPG season, Randle was a solid free agent, but he'd never been an all-star. Still 24.

The NY signs him, after striking out on Kyrie Irving / Injured Kevin Durant. (Kyrie wanted Brooklyn, Kevin reportedly wanted NY). The Knicks had a ton of cap space and Randle signed for 17% of the salary cap - 18 million, 2 year deal, I think there was a 3rd year team option.

Coming off a league worse, 17 wins, NY's 2019-2020 season they went 21-45. Still a lotto team, but better. Randle was their key guy along with half a season of Marcus Morris and rookie RJ Barrett. They were still rebuilding.

2020-21 was Randle's 2nd year with NY and his big break-out season. It's Randle's team now. He leads them in minutes, shots, points, rebounds, assists and he's 2nd in 3 pt percentage behind Alek Burkes. 41% from 3. First time took more than 4 3's per game, first time he shot over 35% from 3. He was an allstar, and league's most improved player, and NY made the playoffs. We got spanked by the hawks, but this was a true break out season. NY extended Randle for 4 years 117, which was widely reported as team friendly. The deal didn't kick in until the 22-23 season, where he was getting 21% of the salary cap.

Now in hindsight, you can say that was fair market, but most people at the time called it team friendly.

https://empiresportsmedia.com/new-york-knicks/knicks-julius-randle-explains-why-he-signed-a-team-friendly-deal-to-stay-in-new-york/

21-22, everything went south. Kemba Walker sucked (nearly 40 year old Derrick Rose the year before was better). Fournier was done. Randle was still shooting as much as he liked. Per 36 his shots were down 17.8 to 17.6 His 3 pt attempts were up 5.3 to 5.5 but his shooting took a dive. His effective FG% went from .515 (never really a strong suit for him as a first option on the Knicks) to .459, which is quite bad. By the end of the season, NY was playing the kids more. RJ Barrett was their up and comer and I remember one game, the Knicks won a game at the buzzer, all the kids were celebrating. Randle was sulking. It wasn't a good look. Fans were trashing him.

But to his credit, he changed his attitude that off season. He worked hard, and came ready to play 22-23 and turned things around. NY got good again, more because of Brunson than him, but he played his role well and made us better.

So . . . as a knicks fan. Nothing compares to his 21-22 season, which was an absolute stinker. His struggles this year don't compare to that year.

(too long?)

[Pickled Prunes]

I wouldn't say that deal was "team friendly". It was probably fair value for his production. That next season was similar to this season. He went from playing point forward to waiting for his turn. That starting lineup seemed to change daily.

At the time, it was reported as a "team friendly" deal.

https://empiresportsmedia.com/new-york-knicks/knicks-julius-randle-explains-why-he-signed-a-team-friendly-deal-to-stay-in-new-york/

I also disagree with you on the Randle's 21-22 season, but this needs a bit of history.

Randle was an up and coming player with the Lakers, but they didn't want to resign him because cap space for Anthony Davis mattered much more to them.

Then he signs a 1 year deal with the Nopes. (New Orleans Pelicans, but I call them the Nopes). He had a solid year but he was their 3rd option. Coming off his first 20 PPG season, Randle was a solid free agent, but he'd never been an all-star. Still 24.

The NY signs him, after striking out on Kyrie Irving / Injured Kevin Durant. (Kyrie wanted Brooklyn, Kevin reportedly wanted NY). The Knicks had a ton of cap space and Randle signed for 17% of the salary cap - 18 million, 2 year deal.

Coming off a league worse, 17 wins, NY's 2019-2020 season they went 21-45. Still a lotto team, but better. Randle was their key guy along with half a season of Marcus Morris and rookie RJ Barrett. They were still rebuilding.

2020-21 was Randle's 2nd year with NY and his big break-out season. It's Randle's team now. He leads them in minutes, shots, points, rebounds, assists and he's 2nd in 3 pt percentage behind Alek Burkes. 41% from 3. First time took more than 4 3's per game, first time he shot over 35% from 3. He was an allstar, and league's most improved player, and NY made the playoffs. We got spanked by the hawks, but this was a true break out season. NY extended Randle for 4 years 117, which was widely reported as team friendly. The deal didn't kick in until the 22-23 season, where he was getting 21% of the salary cap.

Now in hindsight, you can say that was fair market, but most people at the time called it team friendly.

https://empiresportsmedia.com/new-york-knicks/knicks-julius-randle-explains-why-he-signed-a-team-friendly-deal-to-stay-in-new-york/

21-22, everything went south. Kemba Walker sucked (nearly 40 year old Derrick Rose the year before was better). Fournier was done. Randle was still shooting as much as he liked. Per 36 his shots were down 17.8 to 17.6 His 3 pt attempts were up 5.3 to 5.5 but his shooting took a dive. His effective FG% went from .515 (never really a strong suit for him as a first option on the Knicks) to .459, which is quite bad. By the end of the season, NY was playing the kids more. RJ Barrett was their up and comer and I remember one game, the Knicks won a game at the buzzer, all the kids were celebrating. Randle was sulking. It wasn't a good look. Fans were trashing him.

But to his credit, he changed his attitude that off season. He worked hard, and came ready to play 22-23 and turned things around. NY got good again, more because of Brunson than him, but he played his role well and made us better.

So . . . as a knicks fan. Nothing compares to his 21-22 season, which was an absolute stinker. His struggles this year don't compare to that year.

(too long?)

It doesn't really matter what a writer (or even an entire fan base) felt about the deal. It was a fair deal, but it was much maligned, even at the time. In hindsight, would you say he was worth more?

Randle is a good player, but he isn't a max player and he doesn't fit into every system. in 21/21 his USG% went down, his HOB went way down, his AST/TO went down... but that was a floundering offensive unit. Thibs has never been an even average coach on that end. The whole was less than the sum of the parts.... and players tend to sulk when their fans turn on them.

[Luv those Knicks]

It doesn't really matter what a writer (or even an entire fan base) felt about the deal. It was a fair deal, but it was much maligned, even at the time. In hindsight, would you say he was worth more?

Randle is a good player, but he isn't a max player and he doesn't fit into every system. in 21/21 his USG% went down, his HOB went way down, his AST/TO went down... but that was a floundering offensive unit. Thibs has never been an even average coach on that end. The whole was less than the sum of the parts.... and players tend to sulk when their fans turn on them.

Ofcourse it matters what people said at the time. Do you think what you say matters more than what a sports-writer said at the time? Randle himself said he could have gotten more but he wanted NY to have cap flexibility.

A 24 year old, 2nd team all NBA signing for 21% of the cap, under 30K per year was considered a below market signing at the time. It just was. Saying it no longer looked like a bargain 2 years later is also true, but that's revisionist.

If you go back and read my post, my point was that Randle cared about other things more than maxing out the money. That was the point I was making. Not all players are like that. It's one of the things I respect about Randle.

[Pickled Prunes]

It doesn't really matter what a writer (or even an entire fan base) felt about the deal. It was a fair deal, but it was much maligned, even at the time. In hindsight, would you say he was worth more?

Randle is a good player, but he isn't a max player and he doesn't fit into every system. in 21/21 his USG% went down, his HOB went way down, his AST/TO went down... but that was a floundering offensive unit. Thibs has never been an even average coach on that end. The whole was less than the sum of the parts.... and players tend to sulk when their fans turn on them.

Ofcourse it matters what people said at the time. Do you think what you say matters more than what a sports-writer said at the time? Randle himself said he could have gotten more but he wanted NY to have cap flexibility.

A 24 year old, 2nd team all NBA signing for 21% of the cap, under 30K per year was considered a below market signing at the time. It just was. Saying it no longer looked like a bargain 2 years later is also true, but that's revisionist.

If you go back and read my post, my point was that Randle cared about other things more than maxing out the money. That was the point I was making. Not all players are like that. It's one of the things I respect about Randle.

Yes, what I am saying is more important, because I'm saying it.

But I wasn't saying that no one else's opinion maters; I was saying that one story by one author doesn't convey the general consensus at the time. I don't need to look it up, I remember it clearly. It was generally thought that Randle would get a max offer but very few fans wanted the offer to come from their team. When he signed the extension for less than the max Knicks fans were ecstatic because they had dodged a bullet, but very few fans of other teams wished he had signed that deal with their team. It was viewed as a huge relief in NY and just about fair market value everywhere else. It was mostly down hill from there.

And to be clear, I like Randle and do feel it was a fair value contract. Josh Hart is on a "team friendly" deal. Almost a max for an almost max player might be fair but it isn't team friendly. The rest of the NBA must agree because they tried to trade him for years.

That said, the roster construction in NYK was always a bigger problem than Randle's play. He doesn't fit in every system, so they need to run some sets for him. And he isn't good enough to be a #1. He needs to be the #3 on a team willing to build around his skill set to some degree. That's hard to find. Ingram suffered through that for the past several years, being the #2 on a team built around a #1 that rarely played.

[Luv those Knicks]

Yes, what I am saying is more important, because I'm saying it.

But I wasn't saying that no one else's opinion maters; I was saying that one story by one author doesn't convey the general consensus at the time. I don't need to look it up, I remember it clearly. It was generally thought that Randle would get a max offer but very few fans wanted the offer to come from their team. When he signed the extension for less than the max Knicks fans were ecstatic because they had dodged a bullet, but very few fans of other teams wished he had signed that deal with their team. It was viewed as a huge relief in NY and just about fair market value everywhere else. It was mostly down hill from there.

And to be clear, I like Randle and do feel it was a fair value contract. Josh Hart is on a "team friendly" deal. Almost a max for an almost max player might be fair but it isn't team friendly. The rest of the NBA must agree because they tried to trade him for years.

That said, the roster construction in NYK was always a bigger problem than Randle's play. He doesn't fit in every system, so they need to run some sets for him. And he isn't good enough to be a #1. He needs to be the #3 on a team willing to build around his skill set to some degree. That's hard to find. Ingram suffered through that for the past several years, being the #2 on a team built around a #1 that rarely played.

But it wasn't just one story and one sportswriter. I was a knick fan at the time. EVERYBODY was saying it. Randle himself said it that he was willing to take less for the team to win. That's mentioned in the article that Randle agreed to take less.

I was there. I remember the general consensus at the time. Yes there were knick fans who thought Randle wasn't the guy to build around and there were questions about his playoff performance, but I think you're forgetting how it was fairly easy and quite common for a team's best player to get a max contract back then. Mostly people didn't start questioning the contract until the following year when his play took a turn for the worse.

But if you want me to back this up with evidence, this is the 2022-23 salary list of players. Randle came in at 54th during the first year of his contract extension. This was an extension for a 24 year old (when he signed), 2nd team all NBA player. 54th? 2nd team all NBA implies top 10. Statistically, that's less than you'd expect a player in his position to get.

https://hoopshype.com/salaries/players/2022-2023/

If you personally disagree with it being below market, that's fine, but the consensus that it was below market was very much there at the time.

[Pickled Prunes]

Yes, what I am saying is more important, because I'm saying it.

But I wasn't saying that no one else's opinion maters; I was saying that one story by one author doesn't convey the general consensus at the time. I don't need to look it up, I remember it clearly. It was generally thought that Randle would get a max offer but very few fans wanted the offer to come from their team. When he signed the extension for less than the max Knicks fans were ecstatic because they had dodged a bullet, but very few fans of other teams wished he had signed that deal with their team. It was viewed as a huge relief in NY and just about fair market value everywhere else. It was mostly down hill from there.

And to be clear, I like Randle and do feel it was a fair value contract. Josh Hart is on a "team friendly" deal. Almost a max for an almost max player might be fair but it isn't team friendly. The rest of the NBA must agree because they tried to trade him for years.

That said, the roster construction in NYK was always a bigger problem than Randle's play. He doesn't fit in every system, so they need to run some sets for him. And he isn't good enough to be a #1. He needs to be the #3 on a team willing to build around his skill set to some degree. That's hard to find. Ingram suffered through that for the past several years, being the #2 on a team built around a #1 that rarely played.

But it wasn't just one story and one sportswriter. I was a knick fan at the time. EVERYBODY was saying it. Randle himself said it that he was willing to take less for the team to win. That's mentioned in the article that Randle agreed to take less.

I was there. I remember the general consensus at the time. Yes there were knick fans who thought Randle wasn't the guy to build around and there were questions about his playoff performance, but I think you're forgetting how it was fairly easy and quite common for a team's best player to get a max contract back then. Mostly people didn't start questioning the contract until the following year when his play took a turn for the worse.

But if you want me to back this up with evidence, this is the 2022-23 salary list of players. Randle came in at 54th during the first year of his contract extension. This was an extension for a 24 year old (when he signed), 2nd team all NBA player. 54th? 2nd team all NBA implies top 10. Statistically, that's less than you'd expect a player in his position to get.

https://hoopshype.com/salaries/players/2022-2023/

If you personally disagree with it being below market, that's fine, but the consensus that it was below market was very much there at the time.

Yes, you are talking about the general consensus of Knicks fans. They were ecstatic that Randle took that deal when he could have waited a year and demanded a 5 year/$200m deal... A deal that never would have happened if he had waited. But Randle took the maximum extension available to him at the time. (120% of $19.8m, his 21/22 salary) It was security for himself and had little if anything to do with making things easy on the team.

I'm telling you that that was not the consensus from fans in other markets. Most people were glad that their team had not just given Randle $117m. "Team friendly" implies that a player took less than they are worth, not less than they could get. Randle could have gotten more if he waited, but he wasn't worth more. A "team friendly" deal would also be easily tradeable. It would be hard to find a team that wouldn't love to have Hart on his current deal. Who wanted Randle when he became available?

We are talking about a guy that had one tremendous outlier year. Very few people believed that Randle's upward trajectory would continue. He wasn't a sure thing and that contract was his way of telling us that he didn't know if he could keep it u either... and he didn't.

[Luv those Knicks]

Yes, you are talking about the general consensus of Knicks fans. They were ecstatic that Randle took that deal when he could have waited a year and demanded a 5 year/$200m deal... A deal that never would have happened if he had waited. But Randle took the maximum extension available to him at the time. (120% of $19.8m, his 21/22 salary) It was security for himself and had little if anything to do with making things easy on the team.

I'm telling you that that was not the consensus from fans in other markets. Most people were glad that their team had not just given Randle $117m. "Team friendly" implies that a player took less than they are worth, not less than they could get. Randle could have gotten more if he waited, but he wasn't worth more. A "team friendly" deal would also be easily tradeable. It would be hard to find a team that wouldn't love to have Hart on his current deal. Who wanted Randle when he became available?

We are talking about a guy that had one tremendous outlier year. Very few people believed that Randle's upward trajectory would continue. He wasn't a sure thing and that contract was his way of telling us that he didn't know if he could keep it u either... and he didn't.

Lets agree to disagree, and OH BOY do I disagree with your point of view on this.

You're also wrong about Randle having "one tremendous year" After a bad 21-22 he bounced back and had a strong 22-23 and 23-24 prior to his shoulder injury. He actually had one bad year that stands out as an outlier.

[Pickled Prunes]

Yes, you are talking about the general consensus of Knicks fans. They were ecstatic that Randle took that deal when he could have waited a year and demanded a 5 year/$200m deal... A deal that never would have happened if he had waited. But Randle took the maximum extension available to him at the time. (120% of $19.8m, his 21/22 salary) It was security for himself and had little if anything to do with making things easy on the team.

I'm telling you that that was not the consensus from fans in other markets. Most people were glad that their team had not just given Randle $117m. "Team friendly" implies that a player took less than they are worth, not less than they could get. Randle could have gotten more if he waited, but he wasn't worth more. A "team friendly" deal would also be easily tradeable. It would be hard to find a team that wouldn't love to have Hart on his current deal. Who wanted Randle when he became available?

We are talking about a guy that had one tremendous outlier year. Very few people believed that Randle's upward trajectory would continue. He wasn't a sure thing and that contract was his way of telling us that he didn't know if he could keep it u either... and he didn't.

Lets agree to disagree, and OH BOY do I disagree with your point of view on this.

You're also wrong about Randle having "one tremendous year" After a bad 21-22 he bounced back and had a strong 22-23 and 23-24 prior to his shoulder injury. He actually had one bad year that stands out as an outlier.

At the time he signed the contract extension he had had one great year. He has proven since that he is worth that contract. I don't think we disagree on Randle; I think we disagree on the meaning of "team friendly."