Heat Acquire Terry Rozier From Hornets For Kyle Lowry, 2027 First Rounder

[puja21]

Well...Kupchak is still in charge of the Hornets. So not a surprise. Plus, Meddling Mitch isn't very good at building teams either (he's good at destroying them though). So glad the Laker Kupchak years are so far gone that I've almost forgotten them.

A lot of hate for a guy who won 4 rings and reached 6 Finals after taking over from Jerry West in 2000.

Well, I'd maybe credit Kupchak 2 rings.....mayybe. West was the one that drafted Kobe and signed Shaq in '96. The Gasol trade in '08 was interesting as West was the GM with the Grizz till '07 and there was a lot of chatter about that and the Laker's connection.

I don't think Kupchak is necessarily bad, but his body of work is really not the greatest overall and given far too much credit for the Lakers between 2000-2017. Certainly has done bupkis since.

I agree plenty of good & bad during his Laker time.

It's way underselling it to say Shaq and Kobe alone.
Remember, they got smoked in 5 w/ Shaq and Kobe in their primes alongside Malone and Payton (Kupchak black mark).
Previously with West at the helm, they missed the Finals 3x with Prime Shaq / young Kobe / eddie jones and blew a golden opportunity with a 61 win team under Del Harris.

The other pieces do matter when it comes down to rings. And Kupchack turned Travis Knight into Glen Rice, Greg Foster into Lindsey Hunter, and Brian Cook into Trevor Ariza. He signed Brian Shaw, Medvedenko, Horace Grant, etc...

Besides the heralded Gasol trade, he also drafted Bynum. There's no 2010 ring without both Bynum/Gasol's size against Boston.

Laker fans also blame Stern for "vetoing" the CP3 trade, but if that's the argument then you've gotta give Kupchak the credit for that one too.

[docholliday99]

A lot of hate for a guy who won 4 rings and reached 6 Finals after taking over from Jerry West in 2000.

Well, I'd maybe credit Kupchak 2 rings.....mayybe. West was the one that drafted Kobe and signed Shaq in '96. The Gasol trade in '08 was interesting as West was the GM with the Grizz till '07 and there was a lot of chatter about that and the Laker's connection.

I don't think Kupchak is necessarily bad, but his body of work is really not the greatest overall and given far too much credit for the Lakers between 2000-2017. Certainly has done bupkis since.

I agree plenty of good & bad during his Laker time.

It's way underselling it to say Shaq and Kobe alone.
Remember, they got smoked in 5 w/ Shaq and Kobe in their primes alongside Malone and Payton (Kupchak black mark).
Previously with West at the helm, they missed the Finals 3x with Prime Shaq / young Kobe / eddie jones and blew a golden opportunity with a 61 win team under Del Harris.

The other pieces do matter when it comes down to rings. And Kupchack turned Travis Knight into Glen Rice, Greg Foster into Lindsey Hunter, and Brian Cook into Trevor Ariza. He signed Brian Shaw, Medvedenko, Horace Grant, etc...

Besides the heralded Gasol trade, he also drafted Bynum. There's no 2010 ring without both Bynum/Gasol's size against Boston.

Laker fans also blame Stern for "vetoing" the CP3 trade, but if that's the argument then you've gotta give Kupchak the credit for that one too.

Yay, that 3-team cp3 trade that was vetoed in 2011 was odd to me, with Stern bending to the will of Gilbert and Cuban - it should have went through imo. That's a trade that if WOJ wasn't trying to leak everything before it happened to make a name for himself, it wouldn't have given the owners time to rally against it and stop CP3 controlling his own destiny. OK, I'll give that one to Kupchak, even if he wasn't the one initiating it but he certainly had the balls to go through with the break up a back to back championship roster. CP3/Kobe/Bynum would have been sick.

Of course CP had the past laugh, he became prez of the union 2 years later and really opened up player movement - nothing like being ticked off for motivation.

[puja21]

Well, I'd maybe credit Kupchak 2 rings.....mayybe. West was the one that drafted Kobe and signed Shaq in '96. The Gasol trade in '08 was interesting as West was the GM with the Grizz till '07 and there was a lot of chatter about that and the Laker's connection.

I don't think Kupchak is necessarily bad, but his body of work is really not the greatest overall and given far too much credit for the Lakers between 2000-2017. Certainly has done bupkis since.

I agree plenty of good & bad during his Laker time.

It's way underselling it to say Shaq and Kobe alone.
Remember, they got smoked in 5 w/ Shaq and Kobe in their primes alongside Malone and Payton (Kupchak black mark).
Previously with West at the helm, they missed the Finals 3x with Prime Shaq / young Kobe / eddie jones and blew a golden opportunity with a 61 win team under Del Harris.

The other pieces do matter when it comes down to rings. And Kupchack turned Travis Knight into Glen Rice, Greg Foster into Lindsey Hunter, and Brian Cook into Trevor Ariza. He signed Brian Shaw, Medvedenko, Horace Grant, etc...

Besides the heralded Gasol trade, he also drafted Bynum. There's no 2010 ring without both Bynum/Gasol's size against Boston.

Laker fans also blame Stern for "vetoing" the CP3 trade, but if that's the argument then you've gotta give Kupchak the credit for that one too.

Yay, that 3-team cp3 trade that was vetoed in 2011 was odd to me, with Stern bending to the will of Gilbert and Cuban - it should have went through imo. That's a trade that if WOJ wasn't trying to leak everything before it happened to make a name for himself, it wouldn't have given the owners time to rally against it and stop CP3 controlling his own destiny. OK, I'll give that one to Kupchak, even if he wasn't the one initiating it but he certainly had the balls to go through with the break up a back to back championship roster. CP3/Kobe/Bynum would have been sick.

Of course CP had the past laugh, he became prez of the union 2 years later and really opened up player movement - nothing like being ticked off for motivation.

"I'll give that one to Kupchak, even if he wasn't the one initiating it"

Who initiated it?

[docholliday99]

I agree plenty of good & bad during his Laker time.

It's way underselling it to say Shaq and Kobe alone.
Remember, they got smoked in 5 w/ Shaq and Kobe in their primes alongside Malone and Payton (Kupchak black mark).
Previously with West at the helm, they missed the Finals 3x with Prime Shaq / young Kobe / eddie jones and blew a golden opportunity with a 61 win team under Del Harris.

The other pieces do matter when it comes down to rings. And Kupchack turned Travis Knight into Glen Rice, Greg Foster into Lindsey Hunter, and Brian Cook into Trevor Ariza. He signed Brian Shaw, Medvedenko, Horace Grant, etc...

Besides the heralded Gasol trade, he also drafted Bynum. There's no 2010 ring without both Bynum/Gasol's size against Boston.

Laker fans also blame Stern for "vetoing" the CP3 trade, but if that's the argument then you've gotta give Kupchak the credit for that one too.

Yay, that 3-team cp3 trade that was vetoed in 2011 was odd to me, with Stern bending to the will of Gilbert and Cuban - it should have went through imo. That's a trade that if WOJ wasn't trying to leak everything before it happened to make a name for himself, it wouldn't have given the owners time to rally against it and stop CP3 controlling his own destiny. OK, I'll give that one to Kupchak, even if he wasn't the one initiating it but he certainly had the balls to go through with the break up a back to back championship roster. CP3/Kobe/Bynum would have been sick.

Of course CP had the past laugh, he became prez of the union 2 years later and really opened up player movement - nothing like being ticked off for motivation.

"I'll give that one to Kupchak, even if he wasn't the one initiating it"

Who initiated it?

The players of course, everyone was colluding to try to play together, the allstar break was notorious for it - the Decision happened the year before, which was started by the players at an all star game - certainly wasn't Riley's brainchild. CP3 and Kobe loved playing together and nothing would have happened without CP3 agreeing to the trade long before it was put together, as he was trying to control his own destiny and get out of NOP. The League would have not of that, not after the Decision and the lock out that just happened prior to the trade being vetoed. I give credit to Mitch for putting it together with the players and other teams, there were 2 variations of the trade before settling on the 3 team one and almost made that dream work. Instead, Lakers get Nash, Howard and CP3 goes to the Clippers.

[puja21]

Yay, that 3-team cp3 trade that was vetoed in 2011 was odd to me, with Stern bending to the will of Gilbert and Cuban - it should have went through imo. That's a trade that if WOJ wasn't trying to leak everything before it happened to make a name for himself, it wouldn't have given the owners time to rally against it and stop CP3 controlling his own destiny. OK, I'll give that one to Kupchak, even if he wasn't the one initiating it but he certainly had the balls to go through with the break up a back to back championship roster. CP3/Kobe/Bynum would have been sick.

Of course CP had the past laugh, he became prez of the union 2 years later and really opened up player movement - nothing like being ticked off for motivation.

"I'll give that one to Kupchak, even if he wasn't the one initiating it"

Who initiated it?

The players of course, everyone was colluding to try to play together, the allstar break was notorious for it - the Decision happened the year before, which was started by the players at an all star game - certainly wasn't Riley's brainchild. CP3 and Kobe loved playing together and nothing would have happened without CP3 agreeing to the trade long before it was put together, as he was trying to control his own destiny and get out of NOP. The League would have not of that, not after the Decision and the lock out that just happened prior to the trade being vetoed. I give credit to Mitch for putting it together with the players and other teams, there were 2 variations of the trade before settling on the 3 team one and almost made that dream work. Instead, Lakers get Nash, Howard and CP3 goes to the Clippers.

Jeannie herself says otherwise


https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8GvDPWF/

^buss on matt barnes’ podcast

[docholliday99]

"I'll give that one to Kupchak, even if he wasn't the one initiating it"

Who initiated it?

The players of course, everyone was colluding to try to play together, the allstar break was notorious for it - the Decision happened the year before, which was started by the players at an all star game - certainly wasn't Riley's brainchild. CP3 and Kobe loved playing together and nothing would have happened without CP3 agreeing to the trade long before it was put together, as he was trying to control his own destiny and get out of NOP. The League would have not of that, not after the Decision and the lock out that just happened prior to the trade being vetoed. I give credit to Mitch for putting it together with the players and other teams, there were 2 variations of the trade before settling on the 3 team one and almost made that dream work. Instead, Lakers get Nash, Howard and CP3 goes to the Clippers.

Jeannie herself says otherwise


https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8GvDPWF/

^buss on matt barnes’ podcast

Who cares? No one is going to admit to tampering, Paul wanted out of NOP, and he wanted to control where he went as he was going to be an UFA; that and the return wasn't the greatest for NOP who really wasn't looking to trade their star - don't they still boo CP when he goes to NOP? Also didn't help matters that the League owned NOP at the time. Doesn't matter really, Kupcake will always be cupcake, just have to look at his work since.

[puja21]

The players of course, everyone was colluding to try to play together, the allstar break was notorious for it - the Decision happened the year before, which was started by the players at an all star game - certainly wasn't Riley's brainchild. CP3 and Kobe loved playing together and nothing would have happened without CP3 agreeing to the trade long before it was put together, as he was trying to control his own destiny and get out of NOP. The League would have not of that, not after the Decision and the lock out that just happened prior to the trade being vetoed. I give credit to Mitch for putting it together with the players and other teams, there were 2 variations of the trade before settling on the 3 team one and almost made that dream work. Instead, Lakers get Nash, Howard and CP3 goes to the Clippers.

Jeannie herself says otherwise


https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8GvDPWF/

^buss on matt barnes’ podcast

Who cares? No one is going to admit to tampering, Paul wanted out of NOP, and he wanted to control where he went as he was going to be an UFA; that and the return wasn't the greatest for NOP who really wasn't looking to trade their star - don't they still boo CP when he goes to NOP? Also didn't help matters that the League owned NOP at the time. Doesn't matter really, Kupcake will always be cupcake, just have to look at his work since.

Who else is saying player-to-player tampering was Stern's motivation besides you? Can you find even one source?

More than a year before the trade happened, but AFTER the Decision, Stern acknowledged (repeatedly) that he and the league were more concerned about agent/team tampering than players wanting to join up:
https://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=5414701

NBA commissioner David Stern said during a July 12 news conference in Las Vegas that players on different teams who discuss playing together, under current league rules, is generally "NOT tampering or collusion that is prohibited." Stern maintains that there is a considerable difference between player-to-player contact -- even before free agency officially began July 1 -- and contact between team officials with players under contract or their representatives. The league's anti-tampering rules were conceived largely with teams and their employees in mind as opposed to players.

^This was summer 2010, when the league issued a warning to teams about tampering for Chris Paul... 17 months before the trade to LA was vetoed





On the other side, there have been dozens of professional journalism pieces, blogs, pods etc.. over the years citing various other reasons besides Kobe/Paul tampering:

The leaked Gilbert letter, for example:
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/7335431/text-dan-gilbert-email-david-stern

Stu Jackson's (then-NBA EVP BB Ops) comments in the LA Times:
https://www.latimes.com/sports/story/2021-12-13/chris-paul-trade-anniversary-lakers-nba-vetoed-clippers-david-stern

“David made some comment that the reason he vetoed the trade was because it wasn’t an attractive enough package for a player of Chris Paul’s caliber. That was only a half-truth. The other part was that he also felt that he wanted the Hornets to be an attractive property to a prospective owner.”

Jackson also told people he advised Stern it would make the Hornets less attractive as a "middling franchise" (like Philly before the Process):
https://www.nbcsports.com/nba/news/nba-executive-explains-why-david-stern-killed-chris-paul-to-lakers-trade

... Hornets to a position where they’d make the playoffs but they were going to be a playoff team that was not capable of winning a championship... they would be caught in mediocrity and a mediocre team is not necessarily attractive to a potential owner. They want lesser payroll, they want to put their stamp on the team and build it and by making this trade, to me it made the franchise unattractive, or less attractive, to a potential owner.

RE: Buss' comments to Barnes -- what motivation could she possibly have to dig up something that's more than a dozen years old, sling dirt on her long dead father (for his waning faculties at the end), on stern (for his ego as Hornets' governor), on Dell Demps (for thinking he had authority to act without Stern AND during a lockout) ? This admission frustrates the large contingency of her own Laker fans -- those who've been saying the reasoning was the league didn't want them to "get too good."

And Stern agreed with her in 2018:
https://www.si.com/nba/2018/10/24/david-stern-chris-paul-lakers-trade-veto-hornets

"There was a trade that [New Orleans GM] Dell Demps wanted us to approve and I said heck no, but he had told [Rockets GM] Daryl Morey and [then Lakers GM] Mitch Kupchak he had authority to do it and he didn’t. I said no. We just settled a lockout and you want me to approve a basketball trade?” "

On the one hand we have matching stories from multiple direct sources.

And on the other hand we have 1 fan on a forum speculating the league was specifically targeting tampering by players -- something that was never even reported to begin with
^a better example of "who cares"

[docholliday99]

And on the other hand we have 1 fan on a forum speculating the league was specifically targeting tampering by players -- something that was never even reported to begin with
^a better example of "who cares""

Well, this is a forum and it's about opinion and the whole point was about Kupcake and who initiated what in that CP3 deal and his skill as a GM, which is not the greatest. Even Stern poked at Mitch when discussing the vetoed trade afterwards (which is quoted below). And I didn't say the league was only targeting player tampering, that's just one aspect of the whole, but all you did with your quotes was support the fact that collusion and tampering was rampant at the time and everyone knew about it, from casual fans right up to Stern. Agents for players of CP's caliber do what the players tell them to do and try to make it happen in any way possible; and I say "who cares" because no team will acknowledge their part, nor agents or players when the rules a broken. Stern had some great moments and he had some pretty bad ones - I always felt this was a bad one but I can appreciate the difficult spot Stern was in - the owners lockout just ended, the NBA actually owning NOP at the time, and then trying to be commissioner of the league; conflicts of interest all over the pace. Stern and owners can spin doctor what happened back then but the players involved felt deffirent.

Paul felt the veto was a message to him and all the players, especially when the lockout was trying to stem the rising power of the players.

Why did David Stern veto the Chris Paul trade?
During a 2017 appearance on the "Nunyo & Company" podcast, Stern explained his decision to veto the trade and what would happen in the aftermath.

In the course of the weekend, we thought we could redo the deal. We really thought that Houston would be ready to part with [Kyle] Lowry, and we had a trade lined up for Odom that would have gotten us a good first-round draft pick. Not we, but my basketball folks.

But Mitch Kupchak at the time panicked and moved Odom to Dallas. So the piece wasn't even there for us to play with at the time. So that was it — just about what was good for the then-New Orleans Hornets.

Chris Paul on frustration with the vetoed trade
In June 2023, Paul spoke on the trade during an appearance on The Pivot Podcast, essentially confirming Wojnarowski's report about Stern not allowing Paul to have control over who acquired him:

I actually called David Stern one night and he was at dinner … This was right after the CBA had just finished, so what happened when the trade went through is that a few of the owners were mad, they said 'no, this trade can't go through because we just had this whole CBA talking about player movement.' The biggest frustration was that it was about money. Had my trade went through to the Lakers, I would've kept my Bird Rights, which meant that if the trade happened, then I would've gotten a chance when my contract was up to sign a longer deal.

Chris Paul-Clippers trade details
After the trade was nixed, Chris Paul's father, Charles, had this to say about what transpired:

He's going to leave after the season anyway and it's not right that these owners are trying to dictate where Chris lands.

The elder Paul also added that his son just "wants to go somewhere he can win," and was not expected to report to training camp. As it turns out, Paul would still end up in Los Angeles, only with the city's other team..

https://www.sportingnews.com/ca/nba/news/chris-paul-david-stern-vetoed-trade-lakers-clippers/tv8tocq68j5h4jxqwvolr3pn

Kobe felt it was a message to the Lakers.

Well, okay: Look at the [2011] lockout. That lockout was made to restrict the Lakers. It was. I don't care what any other owner says. It was designed to restrict the Lakers and our marketability.

...

...Everything that was done with that lockout was to restrict the Lakers' ability to get players and to create a sense of parity, for the San Antonios of the world and the Sacramentos of the world.

✨ Watch more top videos, highlights, and B/R original content
As Bryant's answer continued, he brought up the league-vetoed Chris Paul trade and how that was part of the NBA trying to keep Los Angeles down:

Even with those restrictions, the Lakers pulled off a trade [for Chris Paul] that immediately set us up for a championship, a run of championships later, and which saved money. Now, the NBA vetoed that trade. But the Lakers pulled that s*** off, and no one would have thought it was even possible. The trade got vetoed, because they'd just staged the whole lockout to restrict the Lakers. Mitch got penalized for being smart. But if we could do that...

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2367570-kobe-bryant-comments-on-2011-lockout-chris-paul-trade-in-gq-interview

[puja21]

Fair points, especially this

Well, this is a forum and it's about opinion and the whole point was about Kupcake and who initiated what in that CP3 deal and his skill as a GM, which is not the greatest.

And I 100% agree he wasn't/isn't a great GM.

Made enough good moves to get 2 titles though ~ so was surprised at the Laker fan absolutely killing him.