Carmelo: Admit It Or Not, Pick-And-Roll Is Way Game Is Played These Days

[RealGM Wiretap]

The New York Knicks continue to struggle defending the pick-and-roll as they practice against their own Triangle offense.

The Knicks rank last in the NBA in defense at 114.5 points per 100 possessions allowed.

“That’s the way the game of basketball is being played these days; regardless of whether we want to admit to it or not, that’s the game of basketball,” Carmelo Anthony said about the pick-and-roll. “Everybody runs it. If you can figure out a way how to stop that, you think you can be successful.”

The Knicks have struggled over the past week against the pick-and-roll of both the Rockets and Jazz.

Via Mike Vorkunov/New York Times

[MrNYYNYGNYK]

Mutiny of the triangle has begun! The quicker the Knicks are to kill it the better they will be! If all the top dawgs on the Knicks say we not running the triangle there's not a damn thing Jackson can do about it....

[Donnyxc]

Mutiny of the triangle has begun! The quicker the Knicks are to kill it the better they will be! If all the top dawgs on the Knicks say we not running the triangle there's not a damn thing Jackson can do about it....

I respect Melo for speaking out. You want your team to play the best basketball. Not every proven system is going to work just because it had in the past. You're going to have to adapt to current trends to be effective. I don't know if we're going to see any mutiny, but probably some adjustments. You can't let a team shoot 35 Free throws.

[12footrim]

The reverse of that is that if no one practices against the triangle then they should have an offensive advantage. We'll if it wasn't such a dinosaur offense.

[12footrim]

I respect Melo for speaking out. You want your team to play the best basketball. Not every proven system is going to work just because it had in the past.

Quite the contrary IMO. This dinosaur offense has pretty much had decades for defenses to figure out and minimize what strengths it had even if it did work in the past. If it was so great to begin with at maxing talent it would have spread like wildfire but it never did. It had players like Jordan, Kobe, Shaq and loaded teams that made it work in the first place which is the only reason it even still has a rep.

[MegaK]

Knicks don't exclusively run the triangle and they need to get better defensively, period. Everyone talking trash about the triangle don't know what they are saying. All of the best teams employ triangle principles and sets within their offense. Golden State and San Antonio run a bunch of it. Steve Kerr and Pop talk about how they use a lot of those principles in their offense as well. It is team ball at its best and when it is run correctly, it is a thing of beauty. Pick and Roll is the oldest play in basketball, and is something they should be able to defend as they've seen it their entire lives. They can't keep using the triangle as their scapegoat.

[Jeff Van Gully]

carmelo didn''t say anything about the offense the knicks are running, which isn't even the pure triangle sets everyone likes to talk about.

y'all read the article or the headlines? he's talking about their struggles defending the pick and roll. the defense is terrible. the offense is actually looking like it will be fine. players are figuring each other out and making sense of it. it's been 6 games with a new team.

the defensive strategy, teamwork, and intensity are the problem... and what carmelo is talking about.

[moocow007]

He's right.

And if we believe Courtney Lee (since folks seem seem to have a tendency of not wanting to believe Anthony) the Knicks work on defending the Triangle during practice. Again...the Knicks defensive focus curing practice is on stopping the Triangle. So to repeat...instead of working on defending the pick and roll during practice, the Knicks apparently work on defending the Triangle.

In some way it does make sense, since it appears that the thing they focus on most in practice on offense is the Triangle, so hard to defend another system if the other half of the practice team (the one on offense) is running mainly just the Triangle. But still...

[12footrim]

Knicks don't exclusively run the triangle and they need to get better defensively, period. Everyone talking trash about the triangle don't know what they are saying. All of the best teams employ triangle principles and sets within their offense. Golden State and San Antonio run a bunch of it. Steve Kerr and Pop talk about how they use a lot of those principles in their offense as well. It is team ball at its best and when it is run correctly, it is a thing of beauty. Pick and Roll is the oldest play in basketball, and is something they should be able to defend as they've seen it their entire lives. They can't keep using the triangle as their scapegoat.

How much though? Some college football teams have a couple of option plays in the playbook, doesn't mean they are anything close to an option team. What does principals even mean. That's just some vague minutia.

[E-Balla]

Knicks don't exclusively run the triangle and they need to get better defensively, period. Everyone talking trash about the triangle don't know what they are saying. All of the best teams employ triangle principles and sets within their offense. Golden State and San Antonio run a bunch of it. Steve Kerr and Pop talk about how they use a lot of those principles in their offense as well. It is team ball at its best and when it is run correctly, it is a thing of beauty. Pick and Roll is the oldest play in basketball, and is something they should be able to defend as they've seen it their entire lives. They can't keep using the triangle as their scapegoat.

How much though? Some college football teams have a couple of option plays in the playbook, doesn't mean they are anything close to an option team. What does principals even mean. That's just some vague minutia.

Golden State doesn't run many triangle sets but San Antonio does. They lead the league in post ups for a reason. The Knicks offense has also looked its best running triangle sets through Noah. Our biggest issue offensively has been when we don't run triangle sets the ball sticks and our bummy PGs are spamming PNRs. Either way anyone blaming the triangle for the Knicks woes aren't watching games or they don't understand the triangle.

[E-Balla]

He's right.

And if we believe Courtney Lee (since folks seem seem to have a tendency of not wanting to believe Anthony) the Knicks work on defending the Triangle during practice. Again...the Knicks defensive focus curing practice is on stopping the Triangle. So to repeat...instead of working on defending the pick and roll during practice, the Knicks apparently work on defending the Triangle.

In some way it does make sense, since it appears that the thing they focus on most in practice on offense is the Triangle, so hard to defend another system if the other half of the practice team (the one on offense) is running mainly just the Triangle. But still...

It still doesn't make sense. Yeah our offense looks good (at least with the starters out) because of all that triangle we run but our defense has been godawful because we scramble the second a PNR is ran. We need to at least have our bench run PNRs in practice so our starting 5 can guard a PNR because its crazy that everyone has been bad on defense so far (excluding our 2 SGs).

[Jeff Van Gully]

we not even running that much triangle. i mean, sometimes they break it out in the half-court. but i'm seeing a lot of UCLA flex and pindowns. they do multiple screens. they mix it up a lot.

i find it hard to believe that practicing against triangle sets is the reason these grown professionals are struggling to defend the same screen and roll plays they have been seeing all their lives. quite frankly, the two wins are the two games the knicks brought the most effort on the defensive end. that's going to be it. the knicks aren't having problems scoring most nights. 114-109 means you didn't defend well.

[moocow007]

He's right.

And if we believe Courtney Lee (since folks seem seem to have a tendency of not wanting to believe Anthony) the Knicks work on defending the Triangle during practice. Again...the Knicks defensive focus curing practice is on stopping the Triangle. So to repeat...instead of working on defending the pick and roll during practice, the Knicks apparently work on defending the Triangle.

In some way it does make sense, since it appears that the thing they focus on most in practice on offense is the Triangle, so hard to defend another system if the other half of the practice team (the one on offense) is running mainly just the Triangle. But still...

It still doesn't make sense. Yeah our offense looks good (at least with the starters out) because of all that triangle we run but our defense has been godawful because we scramble the second a PNR is ran. We need to at least have our bench run PNRs in practice so our starting 5 can guard a PNR because its crazy that everyone has been bad on defense so far (excluding our 2 SGs).

Oh I don't disagree and you would expect that players that have played a long time in this league (basically everyone but Porzingis) to already know how to defend pick and roll. But part of it is that this team doesn't really have the greatest individual defenders and they aren't familiar with each other when it comes to running defensive plays (who should be where and who's supposed to do what on rotations, etc.). I mean that's really what it looks like defensively, they just don't know who should do what which is why we end up with Porzingis trying to guard opposing guards on the perimeter while Derek Rose is defending the paint. Or no one defending man with the ball and two guys guarding the guy that set the pick. You need practice for that, no way around it no matter how good defensively they are, and in general the Knicks players are not good defenders to begin with. And then when they blow defensive assignment after defensive assignment it starts to snowball. And before you know it, you're down by 20 against any team that has a competent offensive that can exploit pick and rolls.

[HotelVitale]

He's right. And if we believe Courtney Lee (since folks seem seem to have a tendency of not wanting to believe Anthony) the Knicks work on defending the Triangle during practice. Again...the Knicks defensive focus curing practice is on stopping the Triangle. So to repeat...instead of working on defending the pick and roll during practice, the Knicks apparently work on defending the Triangle.

Do you really think a $3 billion organization isn't practicing something everyone knows is the main offensive set of every NBA team? If the team didn't have a scheme for defending the pn'r and didn't practice it regularly, you'd see nothing but chaos out there. Most the motion you see on D--how far the big goes out, how the defending guard sags, rotations for help, etc--comes from the pn'r scheme, and while Lee and Anthony might be saying the team doesn't practice it enough, the Knicks definitely have one and they definitely practice it.

[E-Balla]

He's right. And if we believe Courtney Lee (since folks seem seem to have a tendency of not wanting to believe Anthony) the Knicks work on defending the Triangle during practice. Again...the Knicks defensive focus curing practice is on stopping the Triangle. So to repeat...instead of working on defending the pick and roll during practice, the Knicks apparently work on defending the Triangle.

Do you really think a $3 billion organization isn't practicing something everyone knows is the main offensive set of every NBA team? If the team didn't have a scheme for defending the pn'r and didn't practice it regularly, you'd see nothing but chaos out there. Most the motion you see on D--how far the big goes out, how the defending guard sags, rotations for help, etc--comes from the pn'r scheme, and while Lee and Anthony might be saying the team doesn't practice it enough, the Knicks definitely have one and they definitely practice it.

You haven't watched the Knicks have you? That's exactly what we're seeing.

[NashtyNas]

I respect Melo for speaking out. You want your team to play the best basketball. Not every proven system is going to work just because it had in the past.

Quite the contrary IMO. This dinosaur offense has pretty much had decades for defenses to figure out and minimize what strengths it had even if it did work in the past. If it was so great to begin with at maxing talent it would have spread like wildfire but it never did. It had players like Jordan, Kobe, Shaq and loaded teams that made it work in the first place which is the only reason it even still has a rep.

You're entitled to your opinion - just know that you couldn't be more wrong.

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Can you get away with running solely the triangle unless you have an all-time great on your roster? Probably not.
Can you still have it be a major part of your offense and be successful while doing so? Absolutely.

The Triangle is far from dead and it's still more than viable.
The issue for the Knicks is defense - period. They don't know how to play it as a team, nor do they have good individual defenders outside of Noah. The fact that Melo is insinuating that the Knicks don't practice PnR defense is scary regardless, but that has very little to do with whether the Triangle is a bad offense in today's NBA or not.

[The_Hater]

Knicks don't exclusively run the triangle and they need to get better defensively, period. Everyone talking trash about the triangle don't know what they are saying. All of the best teams employ triangle principles and sets within their offense. Golden State and San Antonio run a bunch of it. Steve Kerr and Pop talk about how they use a lot of those principles in their offense as well. It is team ball at its best and when it is run correctly, it is a thing of beauty. Pick and Roll is the oldest play in basketball, and is something they should be able to defend as they've seen it their entire lives. They can't keep using the triangle as their scapegoat.

You're just spreading incorrect information that I've seen other pro-triangle people say before. The Warriors run a couple of triangle related sets and the Spurs don't really use it at all. Just because another team may use a principal that is also used in the triangle offense doesn't mean thst they're embracing this dinasoar of an offense. It means that many NBA offenses have similarities with others and that the triangle, like any offense that has ever had success, has some positive attributes. That's very different that what you are claiming above

I know the speech. Phil is a winner. Phil knows more about basketball than all of his critics. But in this case Phil is stubbornly hanging onto a dinosaur offense against all common sense and it's hurting the product on the floor. How do we know it's a dinosaur? Because the Knicks are the only team that has used it as their exclusive offense the past 3 years as they've struggled mightily to score efficiently and if it was really this great other NBA teams would be embracing it. Instead nobody else uses it and most teams are instead using variations of the Mike D'Antoni offense that he introduced in Phoenix which has become the staple for the modern NBA offense.

Once Phil finally leaves the Knicks just watch how fast the rest of the organization kicks the triangle to the curb.

[The_Hater]

we not even running that much triangle. i mean, sometimes they break it out in the half-court. but i'm seeing a lot of UCLA flex and pindowns. they do multiple screens. they mix it up a lot.

i find it hard to believe that practicing against triangle sets is the reason these grown professionals are struggling to defend the same screen and roll plays they have been seeing all their lives. quite frankly, the two wins are the two games the knicks brought the most effort on the defensive end. that's going to be it. the knicks aren't having problems scoring most nights. 114-109 means you didn't defend well.

It makes complete sense that if you're not practicing defending against the pick and roll that you will struggle to defend it come game day. Especially since that's the staple of almost every other offense in the league. That seems like common sense to me. Only those in the organization can tell us exactly how much practice time is used featuring the triangle on offense and defending it.

[Jeff Van Gully]

we not even running that much triangle. i mean, sometimes they break it out in the half-court. but i'm seeing a lot of UCLA flex and pindowns. they do multiple screens. they mix it up a lot.

i find it hard to believe that practicing against triangle sets is the reason these grown professionals are struggling to defend the same screen and roll plays they have been seeing all their lives. quite frankly, the two wins are the two games the knicks brought the most effort on the defensive end. that's going to be it. the knicks aren't having problems scoring most nights. 114-109 means you didn't defend well.

It makes complete sense that if you're not practicing defending against the pick and roll that you will struggle to defend it come game day. Especially since that's the staple of almost every other offense in the league. That seems like common sense to me. Only those in the organization can tell us exactly how much practice time is used featuring the triangle on offense and defending it.

i agree with everything you say here. i am just perplexed at the notion the knicks aren't defending p/r in practice because... well... they are doing it on offense too. so, you would think they practice it, and hence, defend against it in practice.

as a knick fan, it doesn't add up to hear some of this stuff. it feels like people are looking for scapegoats, or "escapegoats" as a former knick once said. grown men who defend p/r in every game from pickup to AAU to college to pro all of a sudden feel like the principles of p/r defense is not being practiced enough? i see a lack of effort on the defensive end, and i can't help but think that's not the biggest factor.

but if jeff hornacek needs to devote more time to p/r defense in practice, then he should. if the players feel like it's missing, then they should probably get a taste. if i were coach, i'd let them defend p/r... then call them out if they still don't defend with effort.

[HotelVitale]

He's right. And if we believe Courtney Lee (since folks seem seem to have a tendency of not wanting to believe Anthony) the Knicks work on defending the Triangle during practice. Again...the Knicks defensive focus curing practice is on stopping the Triangle. So to repeat...instead of working on defending the pick and roll during practice, the Knicks apparently work on defending the Triangle.

Do you really think a $3 billion organization isn't practicing something everyone knows is the main offensive set of every NBA team? If the team didn't have a scheme for defending the pn'r and didn't practice it regularly, you'd see nothing but chaos out there. Most the motion you see on D--how far the big goes out, how the defending guard sags, rotations for help, etc--comes from the pn'r scheme, and while Lee and Anthony might be saying the team doesn't practice it enough, the Knicks definitely have one and they definitely practice it.

You haven't watched the Knicks have you? That's exactly what we're seeing.

If they had NO strategy at all and couldn't execute basic stuff, they'd literally give up like 210 ppg--a dunk or a wide open 3 on every possession. At the same time, I'm gathering from this thread that PJ's more inept as a team strategist than I'd have ever imagined, so maybe he is really minimizing the time the team spends on pn'r. Probably leaves Noah as the real coach out there.