Vecsey: LeBron James 'Definitively' Leaving Cavaliers For Lakers In 2018

[haste10176]

MJ or Kobe could easily have taken that team as far as LeFlop did. Stop assigning magical powers or historical greatness to losing 32 games, then beating three inferior Eastern teams, only to fall 4-0 to the THIRD PLACE finisher from the West. I think I've explained my "hatred" for LeFlop at least as well as you've described your obvious man-crush on him. How many times have you replayed that video where he pulled his shorts down too low in a sideline huddle, I wonder?

You are just a hater altogether. A blind man would be impressed at what LeBron did in 2006-07 beating the Pistons by himself. Kobe on that team would barely have made the playoffs. MJ would have scored 35 ppg but would not have won either. Again what's your point? That you hate LeBron? Please explain so I can further critique your stubborn opinion.

LeFlop and Cleveland 1.0 barely broke .600 to finish in 2nd place in the dreadful Eastern Conference of 2006-07. Their record would have put them in SIXTH place in the West despite having more games against weak opponents in the East. They needed 6 games to beat the .500 Nets, and another 6 to beat Detroit, whose excellent performance would have placed them FOURTH int he West, one game out of FIFTH and two games out of SIXTH. They proceeded to be swept by San Antonio, which BTW was the THIRD PLACE regular season finisher in the West that year.

So yes, it was LeFlop the Queen and 12 nobodies, but NO, it was not a performance for the ages to reach the Finals under the circumstances that prevailed that year. LeFlop KNEW that no "normal" team from the East could compete on anything like the level of the top teams in the West, so he conspired to move himself and another top-notch player to the Heat, his first of what will probably be at least three ring-chasing desertions.

(It's also worth noting that the 2006-07 Heat Roster also included Curry, Anthony, Howard, and Miller . . . though unfortunately NOT Steph, Carmelo, Dwight, and Reggie )

Going on this logic MJ winning 6 was hardly counts because he had the most stacked team in the league with multiple hall of famers while the other teams he faced had 1-2 at most.. Looking at his bench compared to any other team and it was not even close in the watered down expansion period and the fact that two of his season they moved the three point line so close it became a mid range two...

[gordoncatrell]

ATTN MAGIC JOHNSON. steer clear of this guy. not worth the headache, his M.O. is full control of the entire organization.
if anything, use Bron's interest in the Lakers to go get Giannis & ADavis. Bron's been in full decline for awhile; his stats have been empty calories.

[KGdaBom]

Even you as a HATER acknowledge top 10 all time and act like there is something wrong with that? That makes him a BUM. You who have never accomplished anything in your entire life and sitting in judgment and hating. Top ten is fair. GOAT is also fair. I can see it either way.

Yes, I acknowledge his TALENT at the sport of basketball, though not quite at the level some people like to claim. Being a decent PERSON, on and off the court, is another matter entirely . . . and LeFlop ISN'T.

WTF.. LBJ is pretty much the most decent person to play and represent the game of basketball. For more than half his life he has been in the spot light his most criticized thing was the decision that raised 4 million for charity.. Kobe Bryant was charged with Rape.. Michael Jordan punched a team mate and generally acted like an arsehole and never stood up for anyone but himself.. Come on man..

I have stated the same thing. LeBron is a wonderful ambassador for the game and an all around good person.

[dice]

LMAO. That was the year LeBron became the first player in NBA history to lead both finals teams in points, rebounds and assists. Nobody has ever done that before, but Iggy may have been the better player? Bwaaahaaahaaa

Also, in 2016 he did it again, adding blocks and steals. Only player in history to lead both finals teams in points, rebounds, assists, blocks and steals.

The anti-LeBron posts have become pathetic and laughable. LeBron haters are only embarrassing themselves at this point.

you can score 50 points a game and still be a detriment to your team if you're missing enough shots

lebron was not an effective scorer in that series. his scoring was actually detrimental to the offense. and he turned the ball over a lot as well

lebron had a great stat line. stat lines don't win games. just ask russell westbrook

when you cite the positive stats and ignore the negative ones, as you have done, you're clearly either grossly biased or not putting much thinkin' into your yappin'

also signs you're not putting a lot of thought into your argument: 'LMAO' and "Bwaaahaaahaaa." juvenile

Whatever, There is more to the game than scoring. LeBron does it all. If you recall he was playing that series without Love and Irving and still kept it respectable. Possibly the greatest to ever play the game and those who try to belittle what he does are pathetic.

i wasn't trying to belittle him. you're pathetic for making false, lazy suggestions

yes, lebron james is one of the very best to ever play the game. he does get excessive criticism from many "haters". and he does do it all. but he didn't do it all well enough to deserve finals MVP over six games against the warriors in june of 2015. because he couldn't put the ball in the bucket. in large part due to andre iguodala (who WAS making shots and who was NOT turning the ball over). lebron's supporting cast (or lack thereof) does not change any of that

[dice]

MJ or Kobe could easily have taken that team as far as LeFlop did. Stop assigning magical powers or historical greatness to losing 32 games, then beating three inferior Eastern teams, only to fall 4-0 to the THIRD PLACE finisher from the West. I think I've explained my "hatred" for LeFlop at least as well as you've described your obvious man-crush on him. How many times have you replayed that video where he pulled his shorts down too low in a sideline huddle, I wonder?

You are just a hater altogether. A blind man would be impressed at what LeBron did in 2006-07 beating the Pistons by himself. Kobe on that team would barely have made the playoffs. MJ would have scored 35 ppg but would not have won either. Again what's your point? That you hate LeBron? Please explain so I can further critique your stubborn opinion.

Going on this logic MJ winning 6 was hardly counts because he had the most stacked team in the league with multiple hall of famers while the other teams he faced had 1-2 at most.. Looking at his bench compared to any other team and it was not even close in the watered down expansion period and the fact that two of his season they moved the three point line so close it became a mid range two...

jordan played with 1 other hall of famer for the first 3-peat. and for the 2nd 3-peat he was past his prime and played with 1 other hall of famer IN his prime

and i do believe that this is the first time i've EVER heard those bulls benches be lauded. they were fine but nothing to write home about. nothing but role players at starting PG and starting C either

and the comment about the 3 pt line is entirely irrelevant. as far as i can remember it wasn't just moved in for the chicago bulls

[dice]

MJ or Kobe could easily have taken that team as far as LeFlop did.

kobe? KOBE? not by any stretch of the imagination. we saw how far kobe could take a weak supporting cast

[KGdaBom]

you can score 50 points a game and still be a detriment to your team if you're missing enough shots

lebron was not an effective scorer in that series. his scoring was actually detrimental to the offense. and he turned the ball over a lot as well

lebron had a great stat line. stat lines don't win games. just ask russell westbrook

when you cite the positive stats and ignore the negative ones, as you have done, you're clearly either grossly biased or not putting much thinkin' into your yappin'

also signs you're not putting a lot of thought into your argument: 'LMAO' and "Bwaaahaaahaaa." juvenile

Whatever, There is more to the game than scoring. LeBron does it all. If you recall he was playing that series without Love and Irving and still kept it respectable. Possibly the greatest to ever play the game and those who try to belittle what he does are pathetic.

i wasn't trying to belittle him. you're pathetic for making false, lazy suggestions

yes, lebron james is one of the very best to ever play the game. he does get excessive criticism from many "haters". and he does do it all. but he didn't do it all well enough to deserve finals MVP over six games against the warriors in june of 2015. because he couldn't put the ball in the bucket. in large part due to andre iguodala (who WAS making shots and who was NOT turning the ball over). lebron's supporting cast (or lack thereof) does not change any of that

OK you weren't trying to belittle LeBron, but there are many who do. Still I think you don't see the big picture at all in that finals. LeBron's supporting cast or lack thereof has a lot to do with him being deserving of the MVP. To take that roster and make them competitive with the Warriors that year was a tremendous accomplishment. Since LeBron was the only viable threat it is to be expected that his efficiency would be down a bit. Iggy played some good defense, but he did not carry the Warriors like LeBron carried the cavs. So yes LeBron's scoring efficiency was down, but he still provided massive rebounds assists etc. more or less by himself without help. To me he easily outplayed Iggy in that that series and should have won the MVP. I don't have a problem awarding the finals MVP to a player on the losing team so it was an easy choice for me. Some people believe that you can't give it to a player from the losing team no matter what. There were enough of those types voting and hence Iggy got the award. There is no absolute right or wrong answer just a matter of how you look at it.

[dice]

MJ threatened to leave the bulls unless they got him someone

GM jerry krause, who jordan hated, has said that is not true. he DID threaten to leave if he didn't get a balloon contract after years of being grossly underpaid. that was after title #4. he got his money

MJ gota stacked team in the expansion era including multiple hall of fame players in both runs

once again, false

LBJ in his first run in Cleveland had Mo Williams

true. not much to work with

Then when he went to the heat he had a fading wade and a very good bosh

wade was arguably better than lebron that first year. then he began to fade

and bosh might have been on his way to being a HOFer had his career not been cut short. he was certainly a top tier player when he joined the heat in his prime

I have watched MJ's games and the fact is after 20 years the NBA has improved and LBJ is a better player..

more naturally talented, yes. better player? don't think so. not as competitive, not as clutch

Kobe is not even on the same level as either of those guys as he was just a chucker in a good system and an elite defender..

contrary to popular belief, kobe was never an elite defender. but calling him a chucker is a bit harsh. ball hog at times, sure, particularly with the game on the line. and i don't think whatever system you're talking about (triangle?) had much impact at all on his play. if anything, he irritated the hell out of phil jackson by continually doing his own thing. thought he was MJ and wasn't. not by a long shot

[dice]

Whatever, There is more to the game than scoring. LeBron does it all. If you recall he was playing that series without Love and Irving and still kept it respectable. Possibly the greatest to ever play the game and those who try to belittle what he does are pathetic.

i wasn't trying to belittle him. you're pathetic for making false, lazy suggestions

yes, lebron james is one of the very best to ever play the game. he does get excessive criticism from many "haters". and he does do it all. but he didn't do it all well enough to deserve finals MVP over six games against the warriors in june of 2015. because he couldn't put the ball in the bucket. in large part due to andre iguodala (who WAS making shots and who was NOT turning the ball over). lebron's supporting cast (or lack thereof) does not change any of that

OK you weren't trying to belittle LeBron, but there are many who do. Still I think you don't see the big picture at all in that finals. LeBron's supporting cast or lack thereof has a lot to do with him being deserving of the MVP. To take that roster and make them competitive with the Warriors that year was a tremendous accomplishment. Since LeBron was the only viable threat it is to be expected that his efficiency would be down a bit. Iggy played some good defense, but he did not carry the Warriors like LeBron carried the cavs. So yes LeBron's scoring efficiency was down, but he still provided massive rebounds assists etc. more or less by himself without help. To me he easily outplayed Iggy in that that series and should have won the MVP. I don't have a problem awarding the finals MVP to a player on the losing team so it was an easy choice for me. Some people believe that you can't give it to a player from the losing team no matter what. There were enough of those types voting and hence Iggy got the award. There is no absolute right or wrong answer just a matter of how you look at it.

fair enough. and i would have been fine with lebron getting the award. but iggy was terrific in that series

[haste10176]

MJ threatened to leave the bulls unless they got him someone

GM jerry krause, who jordan hated, has said that is not true. he DID threaten to leave if he didn't get a balloon contract after years of being grossly underpaid. that was after title #4. he got his money

This is BS MJ 100 percent threatened to leave the Bull I am well aware Jerry said he did not but lets be real here is happened..

MJ gota stacked team in the expansion era including multiple hall of fame players in both runs

once again, false

Ok lets see Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman and Phil Jackson (as coach) are all in the hall of fame right??? Even Robert Parish but he was not hall of fame level when he came to the Bulls though... Horace Grant also has a case for hall of fame.. And the team was most definitely stacked for the era.. I see you did not mention the three point line being moved in two of MJ's seasons this makes his three point shooting actually look far better than it is as obviously is spiked in those two years and it helped his sharp shooters including Kerr...

LBJ in his first run in Cleveland had Mo Williams

true. not much to work with

Then when he went to the heat he had a fading wade and a very good bosh

wade was arguably better than lebron that first year. then he began to fade

You can argue all you want but the reality is LBJ 26.7PPG 7.5 Rebounds and 7 assists Dwayne Wade 25.5PPG 6.4 Rebounds and 4.6 assists Lebron had better shooting percentages as well so most definitely had a better regular season.. Play offs would be arguable and especially the finals that year v Dallas.. But if that had been prime Wade then that series would have been won by Miami.. In fact if LBJ had prime wade the entire time in Miami they would have won 4 out of 4.. He got watered down wade.. His decline had already started even before LBJ came..

and bosh might have been on his way to being a HOFer had his career not been cut short. he was certainly a top tier player when he joined the heat in his prime

On this we can agree I think Bosh is an elite player with good defense..

I have watched MJ's games and the fact is after 20 years the NBA has improved and LBJ is a better player..

more naturally talented, yes. better player? don't think so. not as competitive, not as clutch

Please tell me what is clutch because Kobe went two years missing every go ahead or game tying basket there was.. So my question here is if you pass it and your team wins 40% of the time by having the guy shoot the open shot... Or you shoot a tightly contested shoot which gives you a 30% chance to win what is the better play.. For the highlights surely the 30% chance is good and the one ppl will remember.. Russell Westbrook hit about 25% of his game winners ppl will say he is clutch.. Would they win more games if someone else shot it.. All I know is Oladipo was 1 for 1 so probably yes..

To say LBJ is not as competitive is naive.. LBJ has only twice had the team favored in finals MJ always had the favored team.. MJ left his team they went from 57 wins to 55 wins and were a bad call away from the Finals.. LBJ left the cavs they picked up 3 number 1 draft picks.. He left Miami they missed finals.. Teams win championships and MJ has carried teams far more than MJ ever had too.. When MJ had too he could not pass the first round.. LBJ is bigger faster stronger than MJ.. I am not saying MJ is not great he was all I am saying is LBJ is better...

Kobe is not even on the same level as either of those guys as he was just a chucker in a good system and an elite defender..

contrary to popular belief, kobe was never an elite defender. but calling him a chucker is a bit harsh. ball hog at times, sure, particularly with the game on the line. and i don't think whatever system you're talking about (triangle?) had much impact at all on his play. if anything, he irritated the hell out of phil jackson by continually doing his own thing. thought he was MJ and wasn't. not by a long shot

I beg to disagree that Kobe was not an elite defender.. I have watched the man play and can play defense.. You can say it is a bit harsh but put it this way Kobe's shooting stats are mediocre.. You sub Kevin Durant for Kobe in that team and they would have been better.. Yes I just said Durant is better than Kobe.. Because Durant can shoot and defend and do pretty much anything Kobe could better.. The system Jackson had was for Kobe to jack up shots and the rebounds to put it back.. It worked it was unstoppable with Shaq there.. and the Gasol, Bynnum and Odom.. But I find it hard to see what was so great about Kobe because anyone could just jack up shots and make a mediocre amount of them and have bigs rebound..

[FrigginFalcon]

I beg to disagree that Kobe was not an elite defender.. I have watched the man play and can play defense.. You can say it is a bit harsh but put it this way Kobe's shooting stats are mediocre.. You sub Kevin Durant for Kobe in that team and they would have been better.. Yes I just said Durant is better than Kobe.. Because Durant can shoot and defend and do pretty much anything Kobe could better.. The system Jackson had was for Kobe to jack up shots and the rebounds to put it back.. It worked it was unstoppable with Shaq there.. and the Gasol, Bynnum and Odom.. But I find it hard to see what was so great about Kobe because anyone could just jack up shots and make a mediocre amount of them and have bigs rebound..

Lifetime eFG%:

Curry - 0.575 (best in NBA history for a back-court player)
LeFlop - 0.536
KD - 0.535
Jordan - 0.509
Bryant - 0.482 (not great, but certainly not a "chucker")

KD's defense is certainly very good and seems to be improving, but he has a strong supporting cast, and even if you draw tough individual assignments, that helps. Certainly his defensive stats did not look so good for 9 years with Seattle / OKC, and he didn't just suddenly become a better defender when the ink dried on his GSW contract.

Often, Klay draws the toughest back-court assignment and Draymond the toughest SF or PF, so KD is not asked to man up against the toughest opponents game in, game out. SOMETIMES, yes, but Kobe and MJ were elite defenders who were asked on a regular basis to take on one of their opponents' biggest offensive weapons.

When you take into account eFG% as well as the fact that Curry is also an elite "finisher" inside, you can't rank any of those 4 above him as an offensive weapon. The others are / were all entertaining to watch dunk the ball, but points per shot is what wins games, not how it looks on instant replay (not that Steph's replays are boring), and on that stat, only a handful of front-court players rank above Steph:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - LIFETIME
- - - - PLAYER - - - - - - - - - efG%

1. DeAndre Jordan......0.6771
2. Tyson Chandler.......0.5940
3. Dwight Howard.......0.5852
4. Amir Johnson.........0.5847
5. Shaquille O'Neal.....0.5823
6. Artis Gilmore.........0.5820
7. Mark West............0.5804
8. Stephen Curry........0.5752

(The only other 3-point shooters in the Top 20 are Kyle Korver and . . . wait for it . . . Steve Kerr)

[dice]

MJ threatened to leave the bulls unless they got him someone

GM jerry krause, who jordan hated, has said that is not true. he DID threaten to leave if he didn't get a balloon contract after years of being grossly underpaid. that was after title #4. he got his money

This is BS MJ 100 percent threatened to leave the Bull I am well aware Jerry said he did not but lets be real here is happened..

when? when did Michael Jordan threaten to leave the bulls unless they got him more help? the only evidence I can find of your claim is sam smith's book, where sam claims that MJ complained about bill cartwright at center in 1990. this was as the bulls were on the verge of winning championships w/ pippen and grant becoming all-stars

MJ gota stacked team in the expansion era including multiple hall of fame players in both runs

once again, false

Ok lets see Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman and Phil Jackson (as coach) are all in the hall of fame right??? Even Robert Parish but he was not hall of fame level when he came to the Bulls though...

rodman was not HOF level either by the time he was in Chicago. and, of course, phil Jackson was not a player at that time

Horace Grant also has a case for hall of fame.. And the team was most definitely stacked for the era..

Jordan had a prime HOFer in pippen, an all-star in grant and a bunch of role players for the first 3-peat. he had a prime HOFer (pippen), 2 very good non-all stars (rodman and kukoc) and a bunch of role players for the 2nd 3-peat. that's reality. pretty standard championship supporting casts. hardly "stacked". and "for the era" doesn't mean anything. adding expansion teams (because the league is healthy enough for it) does not "water down" the talent of the league nearly as much as you think it does. 'cause those expansion teams don't get many good players from the rest of the league. no team in the entire league had their roster significantly altered to make way for expansion

I see you did not mention the three point line being moved in two of MJ's seasons this makes his three point shooting actually look far better than it is as obviously is spiked in those two years and it helped his sharp shooters including Kerr...

yes, actually, I did note that this argument of yours is idiotic. every team in the league benefited from the 3pt line being moved in. if anything, teams with good 3 pt shooters were HURT by the line being moved in because it reduced their advantage

Then when he went to the heat he had a fading wade and a very good bosh

wade was arguably better than lebron that first year. then he began to fade

You can argue all you want but the reality is LBJ 26.7PPG 7.5 Rebounds and 7 assists Dwayne Wade 25.5PPG 6.4 Rebounds and 4.6 assists Lebron had better shooting percentages as well so most definitely had a better regular season.. Play offs would be arguable and especially the finals that year v Dallas.. But if that had been prime Wade then that series would have been won by Miami.. In fact if LBJ had prime wade the entire time in Miami they would have won 4 out of 4.. He got watered down wade.. His decline had already started even before LBJ came..

saying that wade was "watered down wade" in their first season together is completely and utterly disingenuous. he outplayed one of the best all-time players in the playoffs and had a terrific regular season. 'nuff said

wade was all-nba for the first 3 of LeBron's 4 seasons in Miami. scottie pippen was the only all-nba player that MJ ever played with (all but the first championship season)

I have watched MJ's games and the fact is after 20 years the NBA has improved and LBJ is a better player..

more naturally talented, yes. better player? don't think so. not as competitive, not as clutch

Please tell me what is clutch because Kobe went two years missing every go ahead or game tying basket there was..

we were not talking about kobe. you are correct about kobe - most overrated "clutch" performer (and defender) ever. kobe was never in LeBron's league and thus doesn't belong in this conversation

To say LBJ is not as competitive is naïve

not to anyone with eyes. LeBron came up teeny tiny on his way out the door in Cleveland against the celtics (he was criticized for effectively giving up) and again in the playoffs his first year with the heat when he couldn't decide whether to be "the man" or not

LBJ has only twice had the team favored in finals MJ always had the favored team.. MJ left his team they went from 57 wins to 55 wins and were a bad call away from the Finals.. LBJ left the cavs they picked up 3 number 1 draft picks.. He left Miami they missed finals.. Teams win championships and MJ has carried teams far more than MJ ever had too.. When MJ had too he could not pass the first round.. LBJ is bigger faster stronger than MJ.. I am not saying MJ is not great he was all I am saying is LBJ is better...

MJ was more of a winner, flat out. never disappointed in his entire career. all-world scorer and defender, consistently got the job done in the most important moments

I'm not sure the bulls were favored against the lakers to start the series, although injuries quickly gave the bulls a strong advantage. the jazz were slight favorites in '98 w/ home court and it was very close against the suns in '93 as the suns had home court

Kobe is not even on the same level as either of those guys as he was just a chucker in a good system and an elite defender..

contrary to popular belief, kobe was never an elite defender. but calling him a chucker is a bit harsh. ball hog at times, sure, particularly with the game on the line. and i don't think whatever system you're talking about (triangle?) had much impact at all on his play. if anything, he irritated the hell out of phil jackson by continually doing his own thing. thought he was MJ and wasn't. not by a long shot

I beg to disagree that Kobe was not an elite defender.. I have watched the man play and can play defense.. You can say it is a bit harsh but put it this way Kobe's shooting stats are mediocre.. You sub Kevin Durant for Kobe in that team and they would have been better.. Yes I just said Durant is better than Kobe.. Because Durant can shoot and defend and do pretty much anything Kobe could better.. The system Jackson had was for Kobe to jack up shots and the rebounds to put it back.. It worked it was unstoppable with Shaq there.. and the Gasol, Bynnum and Odom.. But I find it hard to see what was so great about Kobe because anyone could just jack up shots and make a mediocre amount of them and have bigs rebound..

the lakers were not an offensive rebounding juggernaut. and having them rebound kobe's misses was certainly not their "system." I certainly agree that kobe's efficiency left something to be desired, though. and Durant (one of the very best scorers in nba history) is clearly the better player

whether kobe COULD play defense and whether he DID on anything resembling a consistent basis are two different things. and factually year after year he simply did not have much impact on team defense

[ChokeFasncists]

When you read what some of these trolls write about certain players, especially about LeBron James you can only conclude they were dropped on their head when they were babies....you really have to be an uneducated moron to dismiss LeBron's basketball talent and what he achieved as a player.

LeFlop is very talented, and I've never said otherwise. But part of his statistical accomplishment comes from him demanding to be the focal point of every offense, as well as Acting Coach and GM. He's an extremely talented player. But he is also a BUM. He's a self-centered, whining cry-baby, a ring-chaser without a scrap of loyalty, and an unrepentant flopper. He has also preceded at least 5,000 points scored, maybe 10,000, with an offensive foul, to wit, shoving the defender out of his path with his left forearm. If officials had the guts to call that foul for what it was, half his drives to the basket would result in turnovers, not points.

I place him, all-time, definitively behind Jordan, Jabbar, and Bryant, and I think he belongs behind Magic, Bird, Russell (Bill), and Chamberlain as well. That's still Top Ten, but the morons who think he is some kind of basketball god are either stupid or just too young or lazy to have watched those other players in their prime.

(Let's also remember that with the exception of Kobe, all of those guys played 3-4 years of college ball and excelled at the highest level. If you're going to add up "career" stats, recognize that most players from decades past had 4 years of college stats while young LeFlop was padding his NBA numbers. Give Jabbar another 4 years in the NBA, and no one would ever get within shouting distance of his numbers.)

Wait, did you just rank Kobe higher than Magic, Bird, Russell, Chamberlain, Shaq and Duncan?

[FrigginFalcon]

When you read what some of these trolls write about certain players, especially about LeBron James you can only conclude they were dropped on their head when they were babies....you really have to be an uneducated moron to dismiss LeBron's basketball talent and what he achieved as a player.

LeFlop is very talented, and I've never said otherwise. But part of his statistical accomplishment comes from him demanding to be the focal point of every offense, as well as Acting Coach and GM. He's an extremely talented player. But he is also a BUM. He's a self-centered, whining cry-baby, a ring-chaser without a scrap of loyalty, and an unrepentant flopper. He has also preceded at least 5,000 points scored, maybe 10,000, with an offensive foul, to wit, shoving the defender out of his path with his left forearm. If officials had the guts to call that foul for what it was, half his drives to the basket would result in turnovers, not points.

I place him, all-time, definitively behind Jordan, Jabbar, and Bryant, and I think he belongs behind Magic, Bird, Russell (Bill), and Chamberlain as well. That's still Top Ten, but the morons who think he is some kind of basketball god are either stupid or just too young or lazy to have watched those other players in their prime.

(Let's also remember that with the exception of Kobe, all of those guys played 3-4 years of college ball and excelled at the highest level. If you're going to add up "career" stats, recognize that most players from decades past had 4 years of college stats while young LeFlop was padding his NBA numbers. Give Jabbar another 4 years in the NBA, and no one would ever get within shouting distance of his numbers.)

Wait, did you just rank Kobe higher than Magic, Bird, Russell, Chamberlain, Shaq and Duncan?

Yup. And above LeFlop, of course.

And to be clear, I was a Lakers fan in the era of Magic, Kareem, and Worthy, et al., but not much so during Bryan't era. I rooted against Jordan's Bulls and Bird's Celtics as well.

Kobe was an elite defender -- All NBA Defensive First Team 9 times and Second Team 3 times in a period of 13 years, missing out only in a year when he had injury issues. He was also an elite scorer, and like Jordan, had the "eye of the tiger" when a clutch shot was needed.

And as much as is made of Shaq's contributions when he was with the Lakers, he was a liability late in close games, even after the NBA introduced the Hack-a-Shaq Rule to protect him from his ineptness at the foul line. At worst, Shaq was riding the pine while Kobe was taking the game on his shoulders; at best, Shaq's weakness dominated the Lakers' late-game time-management as they tried to shuttle him on and off the floor to keep him off the foul line. For that reason, Shaq will never be "great" in my book, and for the same reason, Kobe deserves more credit during the Shaq era than a simple stat line would indicate.

[ChokeFasncists]

LeFlop is very talented, and I've never said otherwise. But part of his statistical accomplishment comes from him demanding to be the focal point of every offense, as well as Acting Coach and GM. He's an extremely talented player. But he is also a BUM. He's a self-centered, whining cry-baby, a ring-chaser without a scrap of loyalty, and an unrepentant flopper. He has also preceded at least 5,000 points scored, maybe 10,000, with an offensive foul, to wit, shoving the defender out of his path with his left forearm. If officials had the guts to call that foul for what it was, half his drives to the basket would result in turnovers, not points.

I place him, all-time, definitively behind Jordan, Jabbar, and Bryant, and I think he belongs behind Magic, Bird, Russell (Bill), and Chamberlain as well. That's still Top Ten, but the morons who think he is some kind of basketball god are either stupid or just too young or lazy to have watched those other players in their prime.

(Let's also remember that with the exception of Kobe, all of those guys played 3-4 years of college ball and excelled at the highest level. If you're going to add up "career" stats, recognize that most players from decades past had 4 years of college stats while young LeFlop was padding his NBA numbers. Give Jabbar another 4 years in the NBA, and no one would ever get within shouting distance of his numbers.)

Wait, did you just rank Kobe higher than Magic, Bird, Russell, Chamberlain, Shaq and Duncan?

Yup. And above LeFlop, of course.

And to be clear, I was a Lakers fan in the era of Magic, Kareem, and Worthy, et al., but not much so during Bryan't era. I rooted against Jordan's Bulls and Bird's Celtics as well.

Kobe was an elite defender -- All NBA Defensive First Team 9 times and Second Team 3 times in a period of 13 years, missing out only in a year when he had injury issues. He was also an elite scorer, and like Jordan, had the "eye of the tiger" when a clutch shot was needed.

And as much as is made of Shaq's contributions when he was with the Lakers, he was a liability late in close games, even after the NBA introduced the Hack-a-Shaq Rule to protect him from his ineptness at the foul line. At worst, Shaq was riding the pine while Kobe was taking the game on his shoulders; at best, Shaq's weakness dominated the Lakers' late-game time-management as they tried to shuttle him on and off the floor to keep him off the foul line. For that reason, Shaq will never be "great" in my book, and for the same reason, Kobe deserves more credit during the Shaq era than a simple stat line would indicate.

OK, so you don't like Celtics Bird and Russell, Chamberlain was a rival of Jabbar's, you'd probably agree that Magic was greater but unfortunately got his career cut short.

Kobe was certainly better than Shaq in late game situations but it's not very important because with Shaq, most games were over before crunch time and guys like Fox, Horry and Fisher were pretty clutch; without Shaq, the team would be around five hundred and probably wouldn't have advanced past the first round.

Duncan was clearly a much more important defender cuz he was the best man defender and the best team defender. He was more capable of making his teammates better as well.

[FrigginFalcon]

Well, Shaq piled up a lot of stats in blowouts, but I'll admit that a lot of close games were close BECAUSE of Shaq's contributions. But I don't care. Greatness is not piling up stats and wins against lesser opponents and contributing in the first three quarters of tight games, especially in the playoffs. Greatness is not needing the NBA to add a rule that had been unnecessary for thousands of players before you to protect you from your own incompetence. Greatness is not failing to master a basic skill that mediocre HS players like me (91%) can perfect.

[spree2kawhi]

That's easily the most unlikable team in NBA history.

I doubt it, cuz of KD's bandwagoning.

I can still understand KD. Whack on that Twitter action, but definitely the right decision before.

[floppymoose]

Hey Peter Vecsey... Skip Bayless called and asked you to step aside for some real journalism.

[Cappy_Smurf]

iggy may have been better than lebron in that series. lebron was missing a whole lot of shots. and we know who was guarding him. plus, you know, iggy's team won

LMAO. That was the year LeBron became the first player in NBA history to lead both finals teams in points, rebounds and assists. Nobody has ever done that before, but Iggy may have been the better player? Bwaaahaaahaaa

Also, in 2016 he did it again, adding blocks and steals. Only player in history to lead both finals teams in points, rebounds, assists, blocks and steals.

The anti-LeBron posts have become pathetic and laughable. LeBron haters are only embarrassing themselves at this point.

you can score 50 points a game and still be a detriment to your team if you're missing enough shots

lebron was not an effective scorer in that series. his scoring was actually detrimental to the offense. and he turned the ball over a lot as well

lebron had a great stat line. stat lines don't win games. just ask russell westbrook

when you cite the positive stats and ignore the negative ones, as you have done, you're clearly either grossly biased or not putting much thinkin' into your yappin'

also signs you're not putting a lot of thought into your argument: 'LMAO' and "Bwaaahaaahaaa." juvenile

Lol. He led BOTH teams in assists and rebounds also. Let's hear you twist those stats to prove he was detriment.

[dice]

LMAO. That was the year LeBron became the first player in NBA history to lead both finals teams in points, rebounds and assists. Nobody has ever done that before, but Iggy may have been the better player? Bwaaahaaahaaa

Also, in 2016 he did it again, adding blocks and steals. Only player in history to lead both finals teams in points, rebounds, assists, blocks and steals.

The anti-LeBron posts have become pathetic and laughable. LeBron haters are only embarrassing themselves at this point.

you can score 50 points a game and still be a detriment to your team if you're missing enough shots

lebron was not an effective scorer in that series. his scoring was actually detrimental to the offense. and he turned the ball over a lot as well

lebron had a great stat line. stat lines don't win games. just ask russell westbrook

when you cite the positive stats and ignore the negative ones, as you have done, you're clearly either grossly biased or not putting much thinkin' into your yappin'

also signs you're not putting a lot of thought into your argument: 'LMAO' and "Bwaaahaaahaaa." juvenile

Lol. He led BOTH teams in assists and rebounds also. Let's hear you twist those stats to prove he was detriment.

i didn't say he was a detriment, smurfette. nice try

russell westbrook averaged a triple double. he wasn't the best player in the league. I don't need to twist anything to make that claim. I just need to think a little

smhlulzroflcopteromgbyobyolotgif