Re: Jerry West: Clippers Were Really Stuck Before Blake Griffin Trade

[RealGM Wiretap]

The Los Angeles Clippers made the difficult but likely prudent decision to trade Blake Griffin just a few months into his new five-year, $171 million contract.

“Don’t be afraid to make that tough decision if you need to,” Ballmer recalled West telling him.

“No one wants to do that, particularly with someone like Blake Griffin,” West says now. “It was very difficult for everyone, especially Steve, because he really liked Blake personally. But this franchise was really stuck. There was nowhere for it to go. You have to figure out how far away you really are and how we can get there.”

Via Marc Stein/New York Times

[Sam195]

Too bad they did not have the same sense to trade Deandre Jordan by the trade deadline. He is not worth a 5 year max at the current salary cap but some team with cap space is going to poach him with the 4-year alternative maybe the Mavs again. While the clippers dumped Griffin for pennies on the dollar they will be left with nothing for Deandre. How soon will Ballmer relocate this farm team to Seattle?

[DCintheD]

Watch on YouTube

[DCintheD]

glad svg and tom gores were able to help...

[Scalabrine]

Too bad they did not have the same sense to trade Deandre Jordan by the trade deadline. He is not worth a 5 year max at the current salary cap but some team with cap space is going to poach him with the 4-year alternative maybe the Mavs again. While the clippers dumped Griffin for pennies on the dollar they will be left with nothing for Deandre. How soon will Ballmer relocate this farm team to Seattle?

You really think the Mavs will make another move on DeAndre Jordan?!

Bagley, Jackson and Bamba are all projected to go right around their pick, I think everyone sees them heading there.

[ejftw]

Too bad they did not have the same sense to trade Deandre Jordan by the trade deadline. He is not worth a 5 year max at the current salary cap but some team with cap space is going to poach him with the 4-year alternative maybe the Mavs again. While the clippers dumped Griffin for pennies on the dollar they will be left with nothing for Deandre. How soon will Ballmer relocate this farm team to Seattle?

Pennies on the dollar? Do you NBA bruv?

[danfantastk32]

The danger of giving max-level $$ to guys who just aren't there. Look...Griffin is a good player, and a fantastic athlete, but he's nowhere near T-Duncan, Garnett, A-Davis, Lebron, Kobe, Durant, etc. <------ legit max players. He's just not close.

Lakers are gonna do this with PG, btw (It seems to be). PG is another nice player. A guy who will command the max...but falls short of being a max player.

Small lesson here, perhaps? Griffin just got shipped off to what you'd call "basketball Siberia". Detroit essentially ate this guys salary, because they now have a star they can parade out each year. Yeah yeah....they might squeeze in to a 7th or 8th spot every once in a while (hell...you don't even have to be .500 most of the time) but he's been shipped off to rot.

Maybe in the future, guys like Griffin and PG will take $30 instead of $35...and get themselves a NTC. $5mil aint a game changer when your making $35(plus endorsements....I bet Griffin loses $5 being out of LA now). Will have to wait and see. Couple more guys like Griffin will have to be shipped off to Siberia before this becomes a 'thing'.

Not a huge fan of this current salary negotiations. $105-6 mil cap (give or take) is really tight, and being forced to give guys like Griffin, who have so many limitations to their game...but will get the contract due to name recognition/jersey sales 35% of a team's salary is just a killer.

[gordoncatrell]

West is a genius. he's sending signals...
LAC lucky to have to him.

BTW: where's the confirmation on the Doc extension per Bill P? hmmm...

[madmaxmedia]

The danger of giving max-level $$ to guys who just aren't there. Look...Griffin is a good player, and a fantastic athlete, but he's nowhere near T-Duncan, Garnett, A-Davis, Lebron, Kobe, Durant, etc. <------ legit max players. He's just not close.

Lakers are gonna do this with PG, btw (It seems to be). PG is another nice player. A guy who will command the max...but falls short of being a max player.

Guys like Lebron, Kobe, and Durant are worth significantly more than a max contract, but are capped by the CBA. I would say that's my definition of a AAA superstar, a guy teams would line up to offer greater than max but the CBA prevent it.

There are then a second tier of players that are worth roughly a max contract. You might not win a title led by one of these guys, but again AAA players are scarce so you have to do the best you can (without overpaying.) I think a 25 year old Blake Griffin falls into this category, but the current Blake Griffin is not (and will get worse as time passes.) I think Paul George is worth roughly a max, as most people think he will hold up better with age than Blake.

I think the max contract ends up inflating the impact of the AAA superstars beyond what they already do. You have a Kobe or Lebron and your ROI on 35% of your team's payroll is way over 100% which other teams cannot compete with, and unlike say baseball your best player will get a dominant share of touches and shots to further maximize his impact. But the CBA involves counterbalancing many different factors, so there's no perfect solution.

[Da ThRONe]

Griffin biggest issue has been health. When consistently healthy he's preformed at a superstar level. He just hasn't been healthy much and this season (another injury riddled one) shows maybe all those injuries are catching up to him.

[puja21]

The danger of giving max-level $$ to guys who just aren't there. Look...Griffin is a good player, and a fantastic athlete, but he's nowhere near T-Duncan, Garnett, A-Davis, Lebron, Kobe, Durant, etc. <------ legit max players. He's just not close.

Lakers are gonna do this with PG, btw (It seems to be). PG is another nice player. A guy who will command the max...but falls short of being a max player.

Small lesson here, perhaps? Griffin just got shipped off to what you'd call "basketball Siberia". Detroit essentially ate this guys salary, because they now have a star they can parade out each year. Yeah yeah....they might squeeze in to a 7th or 8th spot every once in a while (hell...you don't even have to be .500 most of the time) but he's been shipped off to rot.

Maybe in the future, guys like Griffin and PG will take $30 instead of $35...and get themselves a NTC. $5mil aint a game changer when your making $35(plus endorsements....I bet Griffin loses $5 being out of LA now). Will have to wait and see. Couple more guys like Griffin will have to be shipped off to Siberia before this becomes a 'thing'.

Not a huge fan of this current salary negotiations. $105-6 mil cap (give or take) is really tight, and being forced to give guys like Griffin, who have so many limitations to their game...but will get the contract due to name recognition/jersey sales 35% of a team's salary is just a killer.

There is not significantly more endorsement money in NY/CHI/LA compared to smaller NBA markets -- and nowhere near enough for 99% of players to short their own basketball contracts. Forbes calls this out time and again.

Giannis and Blake earned exactly the same amount off the court (tied for 7th in the league), even before Blake was moved to Detroit. Lebron was the top earner of "non-basketball income" when he was in Cleveland, he stayed #1 in Miami, and he remains #1 in Cleveland again. Durant was #2 in OKC and remains there as well. Kyrie was in the top-10 earners in Cleveland and hasn't moved the needle at all being in Boston, despite his jersey sales going up.

Players don't get a prorated portion for their jersey sales due to group licensing agreements surrounding uniforms:
Source: https://www.cnbc.com/id/35691058
... This is why MJ and Barkley both opted out of several of those agreements in the 1990s and weren't included in some video game licenses.

Yes, the Knicks are valued at >3x the Pelicans, yet lag behind Cleveland (#1), Milwaukee (#6), and OKC (#7) in merchandising revenue because their players are less popular (Kristaps) and/or awful (everyone else). However, the Knicks charge more than 4x the ticket prices of Charlotte though and have bigger local TV deals and advertising licensing in the NY metro area, despite having an awful team.
^None of that difference would benefit a player as bad as Blake to the tune of $5M. Only 11 players in the world make >$9M/year in sneaker deals and 2 of them are retired (MJ, Kobe)

Of the top-15 sneakers deals today:
Two were signed while playing in Cleveland (#19 media market), Lebron $32M, Kyrie $8M
One in Portland (#25 media market), Lillard $10M
One while in Indianapolis (#27 media market), Paul George $5.5M
One in Milwaukee (#35 media market), Giannis $7M
Two while in Oklahoma City (#41 media market), Durant $25M, Westbrook $5M

[Traderwest]

Should Clippers offer 5 years 40 million extension to Doc Rivers?

Clippers have been amazing this season. Rivers is going to lead this team to the playoffs at least once next 5 years.

[ChokeFasncists]

The danger of giving max-level $$ to guys who just aren't there. Look...Griffin is a good player, and a fantastic athlete, but he's nowhere near T-Duncan, Garnett, A-Davis, Lebron, Kobe, Durant, etc. <------ legit max players. He's just not close.

Lakers are gonna do this with PG, btw (It seems to be). PG is another nice player. A guy who will command the max...but falls short of being a max player.

Small lesson here, perhaps? Griffin just got shipped off to what you'd call "basketball Siberia". Detroit essentially ate this guys salary, because they now have a star they can parade out each year. Yeah yeah....they might squeeze in to a 7th or 8th spot every once in a while (hell...you don't even have to be .500 most of the time) but he's been shipped off to rot.

Maybe in the future, guys like Griffin and PG will take $30 instead of $35...and get themselves a NTC. $5mil aint a game changer when your making $35(plus endorsements....I bet Griffin loses $5 being out of LA now). Will have to wait and see. Couple more guys like Griffin will have to be shipped off to Siberia before this becomes a 'thing'.

Not a huge fan of this current salary negotiations. $105-6 mil cap (give or take) is really tight, and being forced to give guys like Griffin, who have so many limitations to their game...but will get the contract due to name recognition/jersey sales 35% of a team's salary is just a killer.

After the Melo debacle, I'd guess no one except for a guy like LBJ is getting a NTC, not even Steph.

[ChokeFasncists]

The danger of giving max-level $$ to guys who just aren't there. Look...Griffin is a good player, and a fantastic athlete, but he's nowhere near T-Duncan, Garnett, A-Davis, Lebron, Kobe, Durant, etc. <------ legit max players. He's just not close.

Lakers are gonna do this with PG, btw (It seems to be). PG is another nice player. A guy who will command the max...but falls short of being a max player.

Guys like Lebron, Kobe, and Durant are worth significantly more than a max contract, but are capped by the CBA. I would say that's my definition of a AAA superstar, a guy teams would line up to offer greater than max but the CBA prevent it.

There are then a second tier of players that are worth roughly a max contract. You might not win a title led by one of these guys, but again AAA players are scarce so you have to do the best you can (without overpaying.) I think a 25 year old Blake Griffin falls into this category, but the current Blake Griffin is not (and will get worse as time passes.) I think Paul George is worth roughly a max, as most people think he will hold up better with age than Blake.

I think the max contract ends up inflating the impact of the AAA superstars beyond what they already do. You have a Kobe or Lebron and your ROI on 35% of your team's payroll is way over 100% which other teams cannot compete with, and unlike say baseball your best player will get a dominant share of touches and shots to further maximize his impact. But the CBA involves counterbalancing many different factors, so there's no perfect solution.

Yea, it's gonna be a dilemma for every team, if an AAA player and an A player are paid the same, wouldn't it make sense to not sign an A player ever? And just wait for an AAA player?

[ChokeFasncists]

Too bad they did not have the same sense to trade Deandre Jordan by the trade deadline. He is not worth a 5 year max at the current salary cap but some team with cap space is going to poach him with the 4-year alternative maybe the Mavs again. While the clippers dumped Griffin for pennies on the dollar they will be left with nothing for Deandre. How soon will Ballmer relocate this farm team to Seattle?

Still not sure why the Cavs didn't get Hill and DAJ instead of that bunch of bench players. Maybe cuz West refuses to take on Shumps?

I can see Cuban doing something like that, but that's probably cuz DAJ will come cheaper.

OP: West is the real deal. Would be interesting what he does this offseason.

[gordoncatrell]

Too bad they did not have the same sense to trade Deandre Jordan by the trade deadline. He is not worth a 5 year max at the current salary cap but some team with cap space is going to poach him with the 4-year alternative maybe the Mavs again. While the clippers dumped Griffin for pennies on the dollar they will be left with nothing for Deandre. How soon will Ballmer relocate this farm team to Seattle?

Still not sure why the Cavs didn't get Hill and DAJ instead of that bunch of bench players. Maybe cuz West refuses to take on Shumps?

I can see Cuban doing something like that, but that's probably cuz DAJ will come cheaper.

OP: West is the real deal. Would be interesting what he does this offseason.

WEST is stealth. and strikes like lightning. he has the NameValue to absorb bad press and/or win internal turf wars (eh em DOC).
WEST tends to clear the deck and go big-game hunting. he's chasing the whale(s).

[The_Hater]

Getting rid of Griffin and that terrible contract was brilliant enough, finding a team who was willing to send a bunch of assets back as well was highway robbery. Now it’s the Pistons who are stuck.

[madmaxmedia]

The danger of giving max-level $$ to guys who just aren't there. Look...Griffin is a good player, and a fantastic athlete, but he's nowhere near T-Duncan, Garnett, A-Davis, Lebron, Kobe, Durant, etc. <------ legit max players. He's just not close.

Lakers are gonna do this with PG, btw (It seems to be). PG is another nice player. A guy who will command the max...but falls short of being a max player.

Guys like Lebron, Kobe, and Durant are worth significantly more than a max contract, but are capped by the CBA. I would say that's my definition of a AAA superstar, a guy teams would line up to offer greater than max but the CBA prevent it.

There are then a second tier of players that are worth roughly a max contract. You might not win a title led by one of these guys, but again AAA players are scarce so you have to do the best you can (without overpaying.) I think a 25 year old Blake Griffin falls into this category, but the current Blake Griffin is not (and will get worse as time passes.) I think Paul George is worth roughly a max, as most people think he will hold up better with age than Blake.

I think the max contract ends up inflating the impact of the AAA superstars beyond what they already do. You have a Kobe or Lebron and your ROI on 35% of your team's payroll is way over 100% which other teams cannot compete with, and unlike say baseball your best player will get a dominant share of touches and shots to further maximize his impact. But the CBA involves counterbalancing many different factors, so there's no perfect solution.

Yea, it's gonna be a dilemma for every team, if an AAA player and an A player are paid the same, wouldn't it make sense to not sign an A player ever? And just wait for an AAA player?

It's a Catch-22. You could fill out a nice roster, not overpaying for anyone, and max out as a 2nd round type team. But if you don't sign/re-sign your A or AA players and wait for AAA players to acquire (through draft/trade/FA), there's an excellent chance you'll never actually get one.

I don't think winning a title has to be the end-all be-all goal and everything else is a failure though. I think building a consistent playoff team while not overpaying for anyone is okay too. You could still get lucky and swing a trade or find a diamond in the rough in the draft that pushes you higher up the playoff scale, it will require luck but so does blowing out your team and waiting to draft a AAA superstar (that's not to say that rebuilds aren't sometimes necessary too.)

I guess the number one thing is to not overpay on contracts, because those players turn from potential assets in a trade to cap killers that you have to give value to trade away.

[gordoncatrell]

Guys like Lebron, Kobe, and Durant are worth significantly more than a max contract, but are capped by the CBA. I would say that's my definition of a AAA superstar, a guy teams would line up to offer greater than max but the CBA prevent it.

There are then a second tier of players that are worth roughly a max contract. You might not win a title led by one of these guys, but again AAA players are scarce so you have to do the best you can (without overpaying.) I think a 25 year old Blake Griffin falls into this category, but the current Blake Griffin is not (and will get worse as time passes.) I think Paul George is worth roughly a max, as most people think he will hold up better with age than Blake.

I think the max contract ends up inflating the impact of the AAA superstars beyond what they already do. You have a Kobe or Lebron and your ROI on 35% of your team's payroll is way over 100% which other teams cannot compete with, and unlike say baseball your best player will get a dominant share of touches and shots to further maximize his impact. But the CBA involves counterbalancing many different factors, so there's no perfect solution.

Yea, it's gonna be a dilemma for every team, if an AAA player and an A player are paid the same, wouldn't it make sense to not sign an A player ever? And just wait for an AAA player?

It's a Catch-22. You could fill out a nice roster, not overpaying for anyone, and max out as a 2nd round type team. But if you don't sign/re-sign your A or AA players and wait for AAA players to acquire (through draft/trade/FA), there's an excellent chance you'll never actually get one.

I don't think winning a title has to be the end-all be-all goal and everything else is a failure though. I think building a consistent playoff team while not overpaying for anyone is okay too. You could still get lucky and swing a trade or find a diamond in the rough in the draft that pushes you higher up the playoff scale, it will require luck but so does blowing out your team and waiting to draft a AAA superstar (that's not to say that rebuilds aren't sometimes necessary too.)

I guess the number one thing is to not overpay on contracts, because those players turn from potential assets in a trade to cap killers that you have to give value to trade away.

Trust the Logo. he's targeting a certain coach.
shortly thereafter, he'll get his 1B FA target. soon after 1A.
the 1A/1B tandem will lure their usually tag-alongs.

[Fresh360Waves]

Too bad they did not have the same sense to trade Deandre Jordan by the trade deadline. He is not worth a 5 year max at the current salary cap but some team with cap space is going to poach him with the 4-year alternative maybe the Mavs again. While the clippers dumped Griffin for pennies on the dollar they will be left with nothing for Deandre. How soon will Ballmer relocate this farm team to Seattle?

Clippers didn't get the offers they liked at the deadline. They will probably trade him next season since he will be an expiring contract.