Re: LeBron James Says Receiving 16 Out Of 101 First-Place MVP Votes 'P----- Me Off'

Soulcatcher33 · Post #21 » by **Soulcatcher33** » Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:33 pm

LeBron needs to shut up. Giannis was far and away the MVP this season. That LeBron even got 16 first place votes is a joke.

PerfectJab · Post #22 » by **PerfectJab** » Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:32 pm

He does make a good point. If we are talking reality he should have at least received minimum 30-35% of the votes. When it is only 15% it makes you wonder what the criteria is or if there is an agenda.

Post #23 » by **dougthonus** » Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:35 pm

spree2kawhi wrote:
Batsy wrote:
Illuz10n wrote:Exactly look how LeBron realized he needed top players to win anything.

Who has won a championship without another top 30 player on their team? You need the right horses to win the race.

Kawhi, Dirk, Pistons.

Good examples, though it's super uncommon. The Kawhi one was a tiny bit fluky in that everyone believes the Raps lose if GS doesn't lose KD and Klay (would have been interesting if they had just one of those guys).

The Dirk championship might be the weirdest of all time, because the Mavs are perhaps one of the most historically weak title teams ever, and Dirk really isn't an all-timer like LeBron or Jordan that you would suspect to be capable of carrying a team to the title on that type of run, and on top of that it was over a Miami Heat team that was featuring multiple guys that you would say were probably better plays than Dirk at that point in time. Just madness.

The Pistons is maybe a bit different only because you could argue they had 4 guys in the top 30, just none in the top 15. Hard for me to argue that Rasheed Wallace, Chauncey Billups, and Ben Wallace weren't top 30 players though. They are a bit unique in their construction though.

Post #24 » by **dougthonus** » Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:39 pm

PerfectJab wrote:He does make a good point. If we are talking reality he should have at least received minimum 30-35% of the votes. When it is only 15% it makes you wonder what the criteria is or if there is an agenda.

He should have had zero percent of the first place votes if you actually based the vote on what they guys did in the regular season.

I can get behind the argument that when push comes to shove, LeBron still might be the best player in the league, but he didn't play that way in the regular season and shouldn't expect people to just give him the award anyway because they think theoretically if he wanted to he could have been better.

Giannis had a better defensive season, a better offensive season, and led his team to a better record. I didn't think the Bucks would be better when it counted (and they aren't) and didn't think Giannis would be better when it counted (he wasn't), but he was easily the better regular season player. It wasn't even close.

PerfectJab · Post #25 » by **PerfectJab** » Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:46 pm

dougthonus wrote:
PerfectJab wrote:He does make a good point. If we are talking reality he should have at least received minimum 30-35% of the votes. When it is only 15% it makes you wonder what the criteria is or if there is an agenda.

He should have had zero percent of the first place votes if you actually based the vote on what they guys did in the regular season.

I can get behind the argument that when push comes to shove, LeBron still might be the best player in the league, but he didn't play that way in the regular season and shouldn't expect people to just give him the award anyway because they think theoretically if he wanted to he could have been better.

Giannis had a better defensive season, a better offensive season, and led his team to a better record. I didn't think the Bucks would be better when it counted (and they aren't) and didn't think Giannis would be better when it counted (he wasn't), but he was easily the better regular season player. It wasn't even close.

I disagree.

Post #26 » by **dougthonus** » Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:50 pm

PerfectJab wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
PerfectJab wrote:He does make a good point. If we are talking reality he should have at least received minimum 30-35% of the votes. When it is only 15% it makes you wonder what the criteria is or if there is an agenda.

He should have had zero percent of the first place votes if you actually based the vote on what they guys did in the regular season.

I can get behind the argument that when push comes to shove, LeBron still might be the best player in the league, but he didn't play that way in the regular season and shouldn't expect people to just give him the award anyway because they think theoretically if he wanted to he could have been better.

Giannis had a better defensive season, a better offensive season, and led his team to a better record. I didn't think the Bucks would be better when it counted (and they aren't) and didn't think Giannis would be better when it counted (he wasn't), but he was easily the better regular season player. It wasn't even close.

I disagree.

That was a compelling argument which summed up all the evidence in favor of LeBron winning MVP, which is, absolutely none whatsoever other than personal feelings.

As I said, I'd take LeBron over Giannis in the playoffs, but he didn't have a better regular season by any standard. It's fine for LeBron to be salty about not winning it, but if the guy with the best statistical output in the league also has the best team record in the league, he's a virtual lock to win the award in a landslide.

PerfectJab · Post #27 » by **PerfectJab** » Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:00 pm

dougthonus wrote:
PerfectJab wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
He should have had zero percent of the first place votes if you actually based the vote on what they guys did in the regular season.

I can get behind the argument that when push comes to shove, LeBron still might be the best player in the league, but he didn't play that way in the regular season and shouldn't expect people to just give him the award anyway because they think theoretically if he wanted to he could have been better.

Giannis had a better defensive season, a better offensive season, and led his team to a better record. I didn't think the Bucks would be better when it counted (and they aren't) and didn't think Giannis would be better when it counted (he wasn't), but he was easily the better regular season player. It wasn't even close.

I disagree.

That was a compelling argument which summed up all the evidence in favor of LeBron winning MVP, which is, absolutely none whatsoever other than personal feelings.

As I said, I'd take LeBron over Giannis in the playoffs, but he didn't have a better regular season by any standard. It's fine for LeBron to be salty about not winning it, but if the guy with the best statistical output in the league also has the best team record in the league, he's a virtual lock to win the award in a landslide.

And you made a compelling argument based on what? Begging the question?

I've been on the forum long enough to know that there is no point of arguing with someone that has already has made a conclusion. Waste of time... Again, I'll agree to disagree.

Post #28 » by **dougthonus** » Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:08 pm

PerfectJab wrote:I've been on the forum long enough to know that there is no point of arguing with someone that has already has made a conclusion. Waste of time... Again, I'll agree to disagree.

Fair enough. I actually regularly change my mind on topics through debate on the forum, if you aren't interested in the debate then I don't want to drag you into it against your will or anything, but there isn't much point in replying with "well I think you're wrong, and I'm not even going to tell you why".

Jedzz · Post #29 » by **Jedzz** » Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:41 am

PerfectJab wrote:He does make a good point. If we are talking reality he should have at least received minimum 30-35% of the votes. When it is only 15% it makes you wonder what the criteria is or if there is an agenda.

So Lebron even said he's not saying Giannis wasn't worthy. If that's the case that Giannis was worthy, what would have been wrong if 100% of votes went to Giannis? As if everyone was voting for someone worthy of it. Nothing would be wrong with it is the answer. The fact that Lebron still stole some votes for himself with his play is testament to his play. The guy would love it if his play had left everyone with a harder decision closer to 50/50. Understandable. But if that's what he wants, he needs to be on his high gear all season carrying his team every game like Giannis has. I don't suggest it, I think what he's been doing is the correct way.

The part about dpoy and all that is just whining, and crying about fake league junk that he's been a big part of for years. Allstar teams that didn't always have the best players and I never heard him stand up for anyone that should have made it in. Maybe he did and I just didn't hear it. But that would likely mean he didn't make much of it.

Lebron has basically written the league for years, coersed teams into fruition, destroyed them in his wake as he left, won buckets of awards. This ego of his knows no bounds. Get your most recent superteam into the finals and win. Make them eat their MVP votes.

Post #30 » by **Bensational** » Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:50 am

**** him. If he wants more votes, go do it without the help of AD/Kyrie/Love/Wade/Bosh. He ain't carrying Lopez/Middleton/Bledsoe to any #1 record in the regular season, and I doubt he carries them any further in the post season.

I'm a LeBron hater, but even I can admit he's been the best player in the league overall throughout his career in general. But he's also a little bitch who needs other superstars to help him do any real damage, so he's been his own legacy's undoing.

Lee in Oregon · Post #31 » by **Lee in Oregon** » Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:45 am

Lebron's sense of entitlement continues to grow. Try as he may, he will never be like Mike.

Sutureself · Post #32 » by **Sutureself** » Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:45 am

I can't wait to watch the Heat give LeBron his 7th finals loss. Spoelstra knows this guy inside and out and has the defensive weapons to neutralize him. AD can be weirdly passive sometimes and I think Bam can match up well with him.

miamiheat319 · Post #33 » by **miamiheat319** » Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:47 am

Really, RealGM, we can't say piss?

dice · Post #34 » by **dice** » Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:59 am

Lee in Oregon wrote:Lebron's sense of entitlement continues to grow. Try as he may, he will never be like Mike.

michael jordan was very upset when charles barkley won MVP

try as he may, the ever-entitled michael jordan will never be like mike i guess

dice · Post #35 » by **dice** » Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:05 am

2019-2020 player impact plus-minus (PIPM), pre-bubble:

9.00 giannis
6.42 kawhi
6.10 lebron
5.98 harden
4.87 doncic

https://www.bball-index.com/2019-20-impact-metrics/

that's no box score data - just pure impact on winning. a very volatile stat that produces a lot of outlier results w/ a single season's worth of data

then there's ESPN's real plus-mins (RPM), which changed its formula this year to de-emphasize defense, realizing that it is very difficult to measure overall defensive impact statistically with just a single season's worth of data:

10.30 giannis
9.58 lebron
7.49 harden

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm

that's also pre-bubble. i've read that RPM starts the season as 100% box score and gradually mixes in play-by-play plus-minus data until the mix is 50/50 at season's end. presumably the data here is majority box score since the season ended prematurely

the most respected pure box score stat is VORP. given that it is purely box score, it is obviously very limited in terms of the defensive end of the ball. this year's leaders:

7.3 harden
6.6 giannis (relatively low minutes played hurt him here)
6.1 lebron

then there are the raw numbers (per 36):

26/8/11 58%ts lebron
35/16/7 61%ts giannis

and wins:

56 giannis
52 lebron

by pretty much every measure giannis comes out on top of lebron. so i question the judgment of the 16 people who voted to give it to lebron. he doesn't even have a 2019 playoff run to point to to say that maybe he was unfairly discounted in last year's MVP race. i could see something like that subconsciously factoring in

hell, the team went from a .500 team w/ lebron in the lineup last season to a .732 team this season, primarily due to trading for AD. if winning is a significant factor, shouldn't AD be getting MVP consideration?

dice · Post #36 » by **dice** » Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:32 am

Sutureself wrote:I can't wait to watch the Heat give LeBron his 7th finals loss. Spoelstra knows this guy inside and out and has the defensive weapons to neutralize him. AD can be weirdly passive sometimes and I think Bam can match up well with him.

this post is likely to age badly. perhaps QUITE badly given that the heat have a very strong chance of not making the finals

it is true that jimmy butler is one of the very few players to have ever had a significant impact defending lebron. iggy also did quite well against him...in 2015, but did increasingly worse in 2016 and 2017

Batsy · Post #37 » by **Batsy** » Sat Sep 26, 2020 6:21 am

spree2kawhi wrote:
Batsy wrote:
Illuz10n wrote:Exactly look how LeBron realized he needed top players to win anything.

Who has won a championship without another top 30 player on their team? You need the right horses to win the race.

Kawhi, Dirk, Pistons.

I'll give you Dirk, he didn't have any top 30 players at that time, but Kidd, Marion, the Jet, Tyson Chandler, and JJ were savvy vets with the hunger for a Championship. The Pistons at the time had 3 top 30 players on that team, just non of them were Superstar players. Kawhi had Lowery and Siakam and they were damn sure playing like top 30 players in the playoffs.

Sutureself · Post #38 » by **Sutureself** » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:52 pm

dice wrote:
Sutureself wrote:I can't wait to watch the Heat give LeBron his 7th finals loss. Spoelstra knows this guy inside and out and has the defensive weapons to neutralize him. AD can be weirdly passive sometimes and I think Bam can match up well with him.

this post is likely to age badly. perhaps QUITE badly given that the heat have a very strong chance of not making the finals

it is true that jimmy butler is one of the very few players to have ever had a significant impact defending lebron. iggy also did quite well against him...in 2015, but did increasingly worse in 2016 and 2017

You're right, my post didn't age particularly well. But I think we can all agree that's because the Heat were missing the GOAT Goran Dragic, a.k.a. the Dragon of Ljubljana