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As Jimmy Butler closes in a return to the Miami Heat from his suspension, trade rumors continue to swirl around him and his team. Butler reportedly still wants to go to the Phoenix Suns, but that continues to be a hard trade puzzle to piece together.

It was also recently reported that Butler's camp has told the Milwaukee Bucks that he isn't interested in being traded there. Other league sources have said that Butler hasn't ruled out a deal to Milwaukee.

It was also reported that Butler's representatives let the Memphis Grizzlies know that he doesn't want to be traded there. To this point, no additional reporting has come out to counter that.

Via Sam Amick/The Athletic

I think Milwaukee, much like Phoenix, is tapped out in terms of desirable trade assets Miami would be interested in acquiring.

TheCage4 wrote:I think Milwaukee, much like Phoenix, is tapped out in terms of desirable trade assets Miami would be interested in acquiring.

The only way with Salary is a package of Butler, Jaquez Jr, and Jovic for Middleton, Lopez, Beauchamp, and Livingston because of tax problems for both teams.

greggschapiro wrote:

TheCage4 wrote:I think Milwaukee, much like Phoenix, is tapped out in terms of desirable trade assets Miami would be interested in acquiring.

The only way with Salary is a package of Butler, Jaquez Jr, and Jovic for Middleton, Lopez, Beauchamp, and Livingston because of tax problems for both teams.

Bro WHAT.
Why would Miami do that trade?

Milwaukee, like Phoenix, is a 2nd apron team.

Second apron teams cannot aggregate players for purposes of trade. Meaning Milwaukee can only send out one player, they cannot send out multiple players.

However, unlike Phoenix, the Bucks do not have a single salary that matches Jimmy. Both Giannis and Lillard are 11K short according to Fanspo. And, of course, Milwaukee wouldn't trade Giannis or Lillard for Jimmy.

So either Beal is waiving that NTC and Miami is taking a poo poo platter from a third team, Jimmy is going to Memphis, or he's staying in Miami.

the_process wrote:the Bucks do not have a single salary that matches Jimmy. Both Giannis and Lillard are 11K short according to Fanspo.

"salary matching" for the purposes of second apron only has to be plus/minus 10% apart

(this is down from -- more restrictive than -- the 125% of sub 2nd apron teams)

Butler's $48,798,677 vs Giannis/Dame's $48,787,676 is only 2.25%

But since both teams are 2nd apron.... can either team take on even 1 extra dollar?

ESPN trade machine says it passes (not sure if they have incorporated 2nd apron rules fully, however)

puja21 wrote:

the_process wrote:the Bucks do not have a single salary that matches Jimmy. Both Giannis and Lillard are 11K short according to Fanspo.

"salary matching" for the purposes of second apron only has to be plus/minus 10% apart

(this is down from -- more restrictive than -- the 125% of sub 2nd apron teams)

Butler's $48,798,677 vs Giannis/Dame's $48,787,676 is only 2.25%

But since both teams are 2nd apron.... can either team take on even 1 extra dollar?

ESPN trade machine says it passes (not sure if they have incorporated 2nd apron rules fully, however)

Neither Miami (1st apron) nor Milwaukee (2nd apron) can take back even $1 more than they send out. However, Miami can aggregate players if need be. Milwaukee cannot.

puja21 wrote:

the_process wrote:the Bucks do not have a single salary that matches Jimmy. Both Giannis and Lillard are 11K short according to Fanspo.

"salary matching" for the purposes of second apron only has to be plus/minus 10% apart

(this is down from -- more restrictive than -- the 125% of sub 2nd apron teams)

Butler's $48,798,677 vs Giannis/Dame's $48,787,676 is only 2.25%

But since both teams are 2nd apron.... can either team take on even 1 extra dollar?

ESPN trade machine says it passes (not sure if they have incorporated 2nd apron rules fully, however)

They cannot.

SkyBill40 wrote:

puja21 wrote:

the_process wrote:the Bucks do not have a single salary that matches Jimmy. Both Giannis and Lillard are 11K short according to Fanspo.

"salary matching" for the purposes of second apron only has to be plus/minus 10% apart

(this is down from -- more restrictive than -- the 125% of sub 2nd apron teams)

Butler's $48,798,677 vs Giannis/Dame's $48,787,676 is only 2.25%

But since both teams are 2nd apron.... can either team take on even 1 extra dollar?

ESPN trade machine says it passes (not sure if they have incorporated 2nd apron rules fully, however)

They cannot.

i know i've heard that "even 1 dollar" condition before

But then what is the point of "must be within 110% instead of 125%"

Why even include that stipulation?

Is that for "the other direction" ?
e.g.
Can't SEND more than 110% (to a non-apron team) down from 125% ?

puja21 wrote:

SkyBill40 wrote:

puja21 wrote:
"salary matching" for the purposes of second apron only has to be plus/minus 10% apart

(this is down from -- more restrictive than -- the 125% of sub 2nd apron teams)

Butler's $48,798,677 vs Giannis/Dame's $48,787,676 is only 2.25%

But since both teams are 2nd apron.... can either team take on even 1 extra dollar?

ESPN trade machine says it passes (not sure if they have incorporated 2nd apron rules fully, however)

They cannot.

i know i've heard that "even 1 dollar" condition before

But then what is the point of "must be within 110% instead of 125%"

Why even include that stipulation?

Is that for "the other direction" ?
e.g.
Can't SEND more than 110% (to a non-apron team) down from 125% ?

Here's a pretty good summation of the rules governing the second apron:

The NBA's second apron is a set of restrictions that limit the ability of teams that spend too much money to make trades. The restrictions include:

No mid-level exception: Teams above the second apron can't use the mid-level exception in free agency
No trade exceptions: Teams can't use trade exceptions from previous years or those created by combining multiple players' salaries
No cash in trades: Teams can't send cash to other teams in trades
No sign-and-trades: Teams can't sign-and-trade their own players to acquire others
No first-round pick trades: Teams can't trade first-round picks that are seven years in the future
Draft pick penalties: If a team is above the second apron for three years in a five-year period, their first-round pick is moved to the end of the first round
Aggregated salary restrictions: Teams can't aggregate multiple players' salaries into trades
Outgoing salary restrictions: Teams can't combine outgoing salaries in trades

That said, when you try a trade on a simulator that takes into account those stipulations, doing Butler for Beal, you get this:

FAILED

Reason: Financial

Heat are unable to complete this trade. Since they are an over apron team, they are only able to take back 100% of the salary they are sending out, plus $0.

Heat can only take back $48.7M in salary based on the amount they are sending out.

Cut $1.4M from the Heat incoming trade value to make this trade successful for the Heat.

SkyBill40 wrote:

puja21 wrote:

SkyBill40 wrote:

They cannot.

i know i've heard that "even 1 dollar" condition before

But then what is the point of "must be within 110% instead of 125%"

Why even include that stipulation?

Is that for "the other direction" ?
e.g.
Can't SEND more than 110% (to a non-apron team) down from 125% ?

Here's a pretty good summation of the rules governing the second apron:

The NBA's second apron is a set of restrictions that limit the ability of teams that spend too much money to make trades. The restrictions include:

No mid-level exception: Teams above the second apron can't use the mid-level exception in free agency
No trade exceptions: Teams can't use trade exceptions from previous years or those created by combining multiple players' salaries
No cash in trades: Teams can't send cash to other teams in trades
No sign-and-trades: Teams can't sign-and-trade their own players to acquire others
No first-round pick trades: Teams can't trade first-round picks that are seven years in the future
Draft pick penalties: If a team is above the second apron for three years in a five-year period, their first-round pick is moved to the end of the first round
Aggregated salary restrictions: Teams can't aggregate multiple players' salaries into trades
Outgoing salary restrictions: Teams can't combine outgoing salaries in trades

That said, when you try a trade on a simulator that takes into account those stipulations, doing Butler for Beal, you get this:

FAILED

Reason: Financial

Heat are unable to complete this trade. Since they are an over apron team, they are only able to take back 100% of the salary they are sending out, plus $0.

Heat can only take back $48.7M in salary based on the amount they are sending out.

Cut $1.4M from the Heat incoming trade value to make this trade successful for the Heat.

So when would the restriction of 110% of matching salary (down from 125%) be relevant?

puja21 wrote:

SkyBill40 wrote:

puja21 wrote:
i know i've heard that "even 1 dollar" condition before

But then what is the point of "must be within 110% instead of 125%"

Why even include that stipulation?

Is that for "the other direction" ?
e.g.
Can't SEND more than 110% (to a non-apron team) down from 125% ?

Here's a pretty good summation of the rules governing the second apron:

The NBA's second apron is a set of restrictions that limit the ability of teams that spend too much money to make trades. The restrictions include:

No mid-level exception: Teams above the second apron can't use the mid-level exception in free agency
No trade exceptions: Teams can't use trade exceptions from previous years or those created by combining multiple players' salaries
No cash in trades: Teams can't send cash to other teams in trades
No sign-and-trades: Teams can't sign-and-trade their own players to acquire others
No first-round pick trades: Teams can't trade first-round picks that are seven years in the future
Draft pick penalties: If a team is above the second apron for three years in a five-year period, their first-round pick is moved to the end of the first round
Aggregated salary restrictions: Teams can't aggregate multiple players' salaries into trades
Outgoing salary restrictions: Teams can't combine outgoing salaries in trades

That said, when you try a trade on a simulator that takes into account those stipulations, doing Butler for Beal, you get this:

FAILED

Reason: Financial

Heat are unable to complete this trade. Since they are an over apron team, they are only able to take back 100% of the salary they are sending out, plus $0.

Heat can only take back $48.7M in salary based on the amount they are sending out.

Cut $1.4M from the Heat incoming trade value to make this trade successful for the Heat.

So when would the restriction of 110% of matching salary (down from 125%) be relevant?

I would imagine that to only be in effect if neither team was above an apron. That's usually how it works.

SkyBill40 wrote:

puja21 wrote:

SkyBill40 wrote:
Here's a pretty good summation of the rules governing the second apron:

The NBA's second apron is a set of restrictions that limit the ability of teams that spend too much money to make trades. The restrictions include:

No mid-level exception: Teams above the second apron can't use the mid-level exception in free agency
No trade exceptions: Teams can't use trade exceptions from previous years or those created by combining multiple players' salaries
No cash in trades: Teams can't send cash to other teams in trades
No sign-and-trades: Teams can't sign-and-trade their own players to acquire others
No first-round pick trades: Teams can't trade first-round picks that are seven years in the future
Draft pick penalties: If a team is above the second apron for three years in a five-year period, their first-round pick is moved to the end of the first round
Aggregated salary restrictions: Teams can't aggregate multiple players' salaries into trades
Outgoing salary restrictions: Teams can't combine outgoing salaries in trades

That said, when you try a trade on a simulator that takes into account those stipulations, doing Butler for Beal, you get this:

FAILED

Reason: Financial

Heat are unable to complete this trade. Since they are an over apron team, they are only able to take back 100% of the salary they are sending out, plus $0.

Heat can only take back $48.7M in salary based on the amount they are sending out.

Cut $1.4M from the Heat incoming trade value to make this trade successful for the Heat.

So when would the restriction of 110% of matching salary (down from 125%) be relevant?

I would imagine that to only be in effect if neither team was above an apron. That's usually how it works.

I'm told it is for outbound from an apron team to a non-apron team (but who doesn't have cap space)

e.g.
*if* Miami was above the 2nd apron, the 110% provision would allow them to send Jimmy's $48,798,677 to a non-apron team and take back "as little as" $43,918,809 (Jimmy is 110% of that)

Versus because Miami is NOT a 2nd apron team they can send Jimmy out to a team without cap space and get back a guy making as little as $39M (Jimmy is 125% of that).... as long as the difference doesn't put Jimmy's new team over the 2nd apron

You're apparently judged on where you land after the trade

Meaning: Bucks could send out Giannis and Dame for Jimmy -- if Miami had cap space -- because that would move Milwaukee below the apron, so they would be "allowed" to aggregate salary based on their situation post-trade.

But obviously that doesn't work bc Giannis+Dame minus Jimmy makes MIami a 2nd apron team

puja21 wrote:

SkyBill40 wrote:

puja21 wrote:
So when would the restriction of 110% of matching salary (down from 125%) be relevant?

I would imagine that to only be in effect if neither team was above an apron. That's usually how it works.

I'm told it is for outbound from an apron team to a non-apron team (but who doesn't have cap space)

e.g.
*if* Miami was above the 2nd apron, the 110% provision would allow them to send Jimmy's $48,798,677 to a non-apron team and take back "as little as" $43,918,809 (Jimmy is 110% of that)

Versus because Miami is NOT a 2nd apron team they can send Jimmy out to a team without cap space and get back a guy making as little as $39M (Jimmy is 125% of that).... as long as the difference doesn't put Jimmy's new team over the 2nd apron

You're apparently judged on where you land after the trade

Meaning: Bucks could send out Giannis and Dame for Jimmy -- if Miami had cap space -- because that would move Milwaukee below the apron, so they would be "allowed" to aggregate salary based on their situation post-trade.

But obviously that doesn't work bc Giannis+Dame minus Jimmy makes MIami a 2nd apron team

No, I don't think that would work. The "judging" aspect isn't going to matter for a team that is already above the second apron like MIL and because of that, any trades involving the aforementioned would have to happen separately since they'd be aggregating contracts and that's prohibited by the apron rules.

More clearly:

OVER THE SECOND APRON
Threshold: $188,931,000

No signing exceptions

Team becomes hard-capped at the Second Apron by or can't use/do:

* Using Tax MLE
* Aggregating two or more player salaries in a trade
* Sending out cash in trade
* Acquiring a player using a TPE that was created via previous sign-and-trade

Can only:

* Re-sign own free agents
* Sign draft picks
* Sign players to minimum contracts
* Make trades where one player salary is sent out and equal or less salary comes back (can do a 1 for 2+ trade)

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/apron/_/year/2024

Non-apron teams can take back 125% of outgoing salaries. Apron teams (first or second) can only take back what they send out or less. No more 110%. So, two apron teams can't trade together without a third team. E.g., CHA had to be involved in the Towns-Randle trade so each of MIN and NYK took back less than they sent out.

BlueHeat wrote:

greggschapiro wrote:

TheCage4 wrote:I think Milwaukee, much like Phoenix, is tapped out in terms of desirable trade assets Miami would be interested in acquiring.

The only way with Salary is a package of Butler, Jaquez Jr, and Jovic for Middleton, Lopez, Beauchamp, and Livingston because of tax problems for both teams.

Bro WHAT.
Why would Miami do that trade?

They won't which is why it won't work

Oldham wrote:Non-apron teams can take back 125% of outgoing salaries. Apron teams (first or second) can only take back what they send out or less. No more 110%. So, two apron teams can't trade together without a third team. E.g., CHA had to be involved in the Towns-Randle trade so each of MIN and NYK took back less than they sent out.

Still curious then -- if this , then why does the new 2nd apron language say 110% at all then? (CBA specifically calls out 2nd apron language as "changing 125% down to 110%" )

SkyBill40 wrote:

puja21 wrote:

SkyBill40 wrote:
I would imagine that to only be in effect if neither team was above an apron. That's usually how it works.

I'm told it is for outbound from an apron team to a non-apron team (but who doesn't have cap space)

e.g.
*if* Miami was above the 2nd apron, the 110% provision would allow them to send Jimmy's $48,798,677 to a non-apron team and take back "as little as" $43,918,809 (Jimmy is 110% of that)

Versus because Miami is NOT a 2nd apron team they can send Jimmy out to a team without cap space and get back a guy making as little as $39M (Jimmy is 125% of that).... as long as the difference doesn't put Jimmy's new team over the 2nd apron

You're apparently judged on where you land after the trade

Meaning: Bucks could send out Giannis and Dame for Jimmy -- if Miami had cap space -- because that would move Milwaukee below the apron, so they would be "allowed" to aggregate salary based on their situation post-trade.

But obviously that doesn't work bc Giannis+Dame minus Jimmy makes MIami a 2nd apron team

No, I don't think that would work. The "judging" aspect isn't going to matter for a team that is already above the second apron

Bobby Marks seemingly disagrees:

"You are allowed to aggregate contracts if the post transactional salary leaves you below the second apron"

This was in his updated "CBA 101" from January:

puja21 wrote:

SkyBill40 wrote:

puja21 wrote:

I'm told it is for outbound from an apron team to a non-apron team (but who doesn't have cap space)

e.g.
*if* Miami was above the 2nd apron, the 110% provision would allow them to send Jimmy's $48,798,677 to a non-apron team and take back "as little as" $43,918,809 (Jimmy is 110% of that)

Versus because Miami is NOT a 2nd apron team they can send Jimmy out to a team without cap space and get back a guy making as little as $39M (Jimmy is 125% of that).... as long as the difference doesn't put Jimmy's new team over the 2nd apron

You're apparently judged on where you land after the trade

Meaning: Bucks could send out Giannis and Dame for Jimmy -- if Miami had cap space -- because that would move Milwaukee below the apron, so they would be "allowed" to aggregate salary based on their situation post-trade.

But obviously that doesn't work bc Giannis+Dame minus Jimmy makes MIami a 2nd apron team

No, I don't think that would work. The "judging" aspect isn't going to matter for a team that is already above the second apron

Bobby Marks seemingly disagrees:

Read on Twitter

"You are allowed to aggregate contracts if the post transactional salary leaves you below the second apron"

This was in his updated "CBA 101" from January:

Read on Twitter

Okay... I wasn't aware of that; however, it doesn't really move the needle all that much as it would take one of the two of Lillard or Antetokoumpo to match salaries and we know they're not doing that. The salaries will need to be exact and they're not.

puja21 wrote:

SkyBill40 wrote:

puja21 wrote:
i know i've heard that "even 1 dollar" condition before

But then what is the point of "must be within 110% instead of 125%"

Why even include that stipulation?

Is that for "the other direction" ?
e.g.
Can't SEND more than 110% (to a non-apron team) down from 125% ?

Here's a pretty good summation of the rules governing the second apron:

The NBA's second apron is a set of restrictions that limit the ability of teams that spend too much money to make trades. The restrictions include:

No mid-level exception: Teams above the second apron can't use the mid-level exception in free agency
No trade exceptions: Teams can't use trade exceptions from previous years or those created by combining multiple players' salaries
No cash in trades: Teams can't send cash to other teams in trades
No sign-and-trades: Teams can't sign-and-trade their own players to acquire others
No first-round pick trades: Teams can't trade first-round picks that are seven years in the future
Draft pick penalties: If a team is above the second apron for three years in a five-year period, their first-round pick is moved to the end of the first round
Aggregated salary restrictions: Teams can't aggregate multiple players' salaries into trades
Outgoing salary restrictions: Teams can't combine outgoing salaries in trades

That said, when you try a trade on a simulator that takes into account those stipulations, doing Butler for Beal, you get this:

FAILED

Reason: Financial

Heat are unable to complete this trade. Since they are an over apron team, they are only able to take back 100% of the salary they are sending out, plus $0.

Heat can only take back $48.7M in salary based on the amount they are sending out.

Cut $1.4M from the Heat incoming trade value to make this trade successful for the Heat.

So when would the restriction of 110% of matching salary (down from 125%) be relevant?

Over the cap but under the 1st apron.