2024 WNBA PLAYOFFS Discussion Thread (WNBA Finals: New York Liberty vs Minnesota Lynx; NYL WIN 3-2)

[Ice Man]

What was super effective was trapping her off the PnR. Probably can't do it all game, but iirc the Sun started heavily trapping her in the 4th which is where the lead really exploded and Indy's offense couldn't do anything. I also think they did a good job of getting back in transition which is where she usually thrives

Yep. The Sun had the Fever playing in mud. To which I would add, the Sun somehow -- I don't know how, in truth -- took the short roll away from Boston. So instead of Boston receiving a pass near the foul line, it was Dantas (OK if she shoots immediately, but she can't pass or drive) or worse yet, Temi (who is purely hustle, she can't make a play at all with the ball unless she's under the basket).

Really I think it just showed the experience gap. Going into last night, the Fever had 4 players who'd played in the playoffs for a combined 19 games, and 307 total minutes. Meanwhile DeWanna Bonner alone had played in 80 games and 2,494 total minutes in the playoffs in her career to that point. I'm not writing them off yet, cause they've all played exceptionally well lately, but I think the Sun are just a bad matchup for them at this point.

True, although I would say that each of the top 4 seeds are bad matchups for the Fever. Too much experience and knowhow versus too little. I don't think it much matters which of those teams the Fever plays, in all cases Indy would be receiving a playoff lesson.

[RSCD3_]

I too don't think Clark was affected by Bonner guarding her imo. I will give credit to Bonner though because MAYBE she did bother her, but the main reason I don't think she bothered her much was the quality of looks and shots that CC was getting. Clark didn't seem to have to work harder to get shots. I did notice a lot of her shots were flat though and she forced a lot of threes which she normally does. Bonner 100% affects CC on the drive.

My take entirely. I will go further. Mabrey was on Clark quite often and guarded her 3s better than Bonner did. And whoever was on Mitchell absolutely stuffed her. The best 3 point looks that Indy got in the game was when Bonner was on Clark. I expect Clark/Indy to be firing away again next game, with better results.

Bonner did take away the drive, as expected. A long player who is 4 inches taller than a guard and a rim protector is going to be tough to drive against, particularly since Clark seeks contact on drives and looks to outmuscle her mark. But a long player who is 4 inches taller than a guard is going to have trouble running all over the perimeter to chase her on 3s. And Bonner did have trouble. Only Clark did not make her pay for being a step behind.

Hey, if Clark goes 3-11 next game (or whatever) on 3s, people can tell me I am wrong. We shall see.

I don't think Bonner is an incredible defensive player overall, but she's long been very good in this specific role. Even at age 37, she has unusually quick feet for someone with center height. She's not going to be able to pick up Clark for a full game, but putting Bonner on Clark's preferred perimeter screener can completely smush Indiana's initial actions. I think Bonner is more than capable of guarding Clark's drive and her pull up, just probably not as a full time job.

Mabrey is too slow to guard Clark much. She gives big effort to contest shots, but whenever Clark would drive, Mabrey would often end up turned around and chasing her.

I think the bigger problem for the Fever isn't individual matchups though. The Sun completely took away everything the Indiana offense is made of. No fast breaks (Sun outscored the Fever 18-9 in transition), and they disrupted the Boston/Clark pick & roll game. Brionna Jones stayed at home on Boston, so the play didn't create 3-point looks. The Fever still managed to chuck up a ton of threes, but they weren't the kind they like: open 3s off of ball movement. So many of the threes they took came after possessions that failed to puncture the Sun defense.

On the other end, the Sun got inside whenever they wanted and were able to unlock nice shots. On top of that... Mabrey absolutely annihilated Caitlin Clark whenever the got that assignment. Clark can't guard Mabrey any better than Mabrey can guard Clark. It's not just a Clark thing though because Indiana doesn't have significantly better perimeter defenders than Clark. Clark/Mitchell/Hull is a joke perimeter defense.

The Sun had a very basic game plan for the Fever and it looked extremely easy to execute.

Hull is clearly their best perimeter defender, much better than clark or mitchell, but I think she shouldnt be the best perimeter defender on such a team that has serious title aspirations

[MrDollarBills]

What was super effective was trapping her off the PnR. Probably can't do it all game, but iirc the Sun started heavily trapping her in the 4th which is where the lead really exploded and Indy's offense couldn't do anything. I also think they did a good job of getting back in transition which is where she usually thrives

Yep. The Sun had the Fever playing in mud. To which I would add, the Sun somehow -- I don't know how, in truth -- took the short roll away from Boston. So instead of Boston receiving a pass near the foul line, it was Dantas (OK if she shoots immediately, but she can't pass or drive) or worse yet, Temi (who is purely hustle, she can't make a play at all with the ball unless she's under the basket).

Really I think it just showed the experience gap. Going into last night, the Fever had 4 players who'd played in the playoffs for a combined 19 games, and 307 total minutes. Meanwhile DeWanna Bonner alone had played in 80 games and 2,494 total minutes in the playoffs in her career to that point. I'm not writing them off yet, cause they've all played exceptionally well lately, but I think the Sun are just a bad matchup for them at this point.

True, although I would say that each of the top 4 seeds are bad matchups for the Fever. Too much experience and knowhow versus too little. I don't think it much matters which of those teams the Fever plays, in all cases Indy would be receiving a playoff lesson.

Yep, I called this 2 weeks ago. The Fever are going to learn a hard lesson about what it takes to win. They don't have the personnel.

I'm interested to see what the adjustment will be. Putting a taller player on Clark and basically preventing the fast break rebounds was always going to be the plan regardless of who the Fever faced.

I always look at Clark's rebounds and assists. When those numbers aren't high, the Fever usually aren't going to fare well.

[bisme37]

I might require a little patience (for example I already forgot to update the OP last night and just did it now), but I'm intending to keep the OP of this thread current with results and schedule.

Next games are...

Tuesday September 24:
(1) New York Liberty vs. (8) Atlanta Dream 7:30pm ET on ESPN (NYL lead 1-0)
Las Vegas Aces vs. (5) Seattle Storm 9:30pm ET on ESPN (LVA lead 1-0)

Wednesday September 25:
(3) Connecticut Sun vs. (6) Indiana Fever 7:30pm ET on ESPN (CON lead 1-0)
(2) Minnesota Lynx vs. (7) Phoenix Mercury 9:30pm ET on ESPN (MIN lead 1-0)

And apparently there could be some Game 3's on Wednesday as well but it's kinda confusing imo. I'll keep an eye on it.

[cdubbz]

Hull is clearly their best perimeter defender, much better than clark or mitchell, but I think she shouldnt be the best perimeter defender on such a team that has serious title aspirations

Hope they can convince free agents to come play with them next season and fit one of these roles that they need. A wing defender off the bench that can create some offense would be nice -- get minutes from CC/KM/Hull on the bench.

[ellobo]

What was super effective was trapping her off the PnR. Probably can't do it all game, but iirc the Sun started heavily trapping her in the 4th which is where the lead really exploded and Indy's offense couldn't do anything. I also think they did a good job of getting back in transition which is where she usually thrives

Yep. The Sun had the Fever playing in mud. To which I would add, the Sun somehow -- I don't know how, in truth -- took the short roll away from Boston. So instead of Boston receiving a pass near the foul line, it was Dantas (OK if she shoots immediately, but she can't pass or drive) or worse yet, Temi (who is purely hustle, she can't make a play at all with the ball unless she's under the basket).

Really I think it just showed the experience gap. Going into last night, the Fever had 4 players who'd played in the playoffs for a combined 19 games, and 307 total minutes. Meanwhile DeWanna Bonner alone had played in 80 games and 2,494 total minutes in the playoffs in her career to that point. I'm not writing them off yet, cause they've all played exceptionally well lately, but I think the Sun are just a bad matchup for them at this point.

True, although I would say that each of the top 4 seeds are bad matchups for the Fever. Too much experience and knowhow versus too little. I don't think it much matters which of those teams the Fever plays, in all cases Indy would be receiving a playoff lesson.

Yep, I called this 2 weeks ago. The Fever are going to learn a hard lesson about what it takes to win. They don't have the personnel.

I'm interested to see what the adjustment will be. Putting a taller player on Clark and basically preventing the fast break rebounds was always going to be the plan regardless of who the Fever faced.

I always look at Clark's rebounds and assists. When those numbers aren't high, the Fever usually aren't going to fare well.

When I heard Andraya and Chiney on the pregame show say that the Fever players were talking about coming into the series to "play loose and carefree" I knew the Fever were in trouble.

Those ladies took it as a positive sign, and they are usually on target, but they missed it this time. "Loose and carefree" for an underdog team with no playoff experience means "We don't understand playoff intensity, we're not ready for it, and we're going to suffer through a harsh lesson."

Oh, and on the eye poking, both Carrington and Clarke did it, I believe both were unintentional and it was just a coincidence that they did it to each other in the same game, and the whole thing is no big deal, or even any kind of a deal at all.

[DOT]

Oh, and on the eye poking, both Carrington and Clarke did it, I believe both were unintentional and it was just a coincidence that they did it to each other in the same game, and the whole thing is no big deal, or even any kind of a deal at all.

You should tell that to Reddit

They're like half a step away from straight up calling DJ the N word for the eye poke.

[ellobo]

Oh, and on the eye poking, both Carrington and Clarke did it, I believe both were unintentional and it was just a coincidence that they did it to each other in the same game, and the whole thing is no big deal, or even any kind of a deal at all.

You should tell that to Reddit

They're like half a step away from straight up calling DJ the N word for the eye poke.

Well, no big deal to me, but unhinged whackos are going to do their thing regardless. I just try to tune it out at this point (although I don't always succeed in doing so).

[MrDollarBills]

I might require a little patience (for example I already forgot to update the OP last night and just did it now), but I'm intending to keep the OP of this thread current with results and schedule.

Next games are...

Tuesday September 24:
(1) New York Liberty vs. (8) Atlanta Dream 7:30pm ET on ESPN (NYL lead 1-0)
Las Vegas Aces vs. (5) Seattle Storm 9:30pm ET on ESPN (LVA lead 1-0)

Wednesday September 25:
(3) Connecticut Sun vs. (6) Indiana Fever 7:30pm ET on ESPN (CON lead 1-0)
(2) Minnesota Lynx vs. (7) Phoenix Mercury 9:30pm ET on ESPN (MIN lead 1-0)

And apparently there could be some Game 3's on Wednesday as well but it's kinda confusing imo. I'll keep an eye on it.

Thank you bisme!!!!

[MrDollarBills]

Yep. The Sun had the Fever playing in mud. To which I would add, the Sun somehow -- I don't know how, in truth -- took the short roll away from Boston. So instead of Boston receiving a pass near the foul line, it was Dantas (OK if she shoots immediately, but she can't pass or drive) or worse yet, Temi (who is purely hustle, she can't make a play at all with the ball unless she's under the basket).



True, although I would say that each of the top 4 seeds are bad matchups for the Fever. Too much experience and knowhow versus too little. I don't think it much matters which of those teams the Fever plays, in all cases Indy would be receiving a playoff lesson.

Yep, I called this 2 weeks ago. The Fever are going to learn a hard lesson about what it takes to win. They don't have the personnel.

I'm interested to see what the adjustment will be. Putting a taller player on Clark and basically preventing the fast break rebounds was always going to be the plan regardless of who the Fever faced.

I always look at Clark's rebounds and assists. When those numbers aren't high, the Fever usually aren't going to fare well.

When I heard Andraya and Chiney on the pregame show say that the Fever players were talking about coming into the series to "play loose and carefree" I knew the Fever were in trouble.

Those ladies took it as a positive sign, and they are usually on target, but they missed it this time. "Loose and carefree" for an underdog team with no playoff experience means "We don't understand playoff intensity, we're not ready for it, and we're going to suffer through a harsh lesson."

Oh, and on the eye poking, both Carrington and Clarke did it, I believe both were unintentional and it was just a coincidence that they did it to each other in the same game, and the whole thing is no big deal, or even any kind of a deal at all.

Yeah I saw that. Loose and carefree means "yeah we know we're screwed so we might as well play without letting the pressure get to us".

It's a bad match up. Indiana lacks the size and talent right now. This is why I've been saying, they have to upgrade the wing/big wing spots. I like Hull, and I think Smith is more suited as a 6th person big, but they aren't gonna cut it against the big dogs. AT was running a clinic out there yesterday.

And yeah. The whole idea that both these players were trying to gouge out each other's eyes is just ridiculous. Come on.

[Green Chile]

I didn't watch the game but saw the box score of the Aces/Storm and what the hell happened in the last quarter? 14-2 in 10 minutes? It seemed Seattle didn't come back out after 3QT.

I don’t have ESPN, so I’m going to miss more than I would’ve otherwise this season (vs NBA TV, free Ion..but hey, bigger more popular network is def good for the league). Anyway, not sure, but I didn’t realize Ezi was going to miss time. That’s huge. Still think the Aces would come out on top, but it’d be much tougher.

Speaking of box scores…I’ve noticed of late that Chelsea Gray’s numbers are starting to look better. How does the eye test look to the board? Is she finally getting her legs back?

I’m personally rooting for a Liberty/Lynx final, but have a feeling the Aces are about to peak at the right time. [edit: FTR, I'm the only one who has voted Aces in the poll thus far]

Finally catching up on the game.

Short answer is that A'ja got going (in the 3rd), and Tip and Chelsea kept it going (she looks healthy).

Long answer is that I think Nneka, and really the whole team, got worn out trying to do more defensively than they normally would have with Ezi out there. Storm suffocated them in the 1st quarter.

GB Mercedes, but she's not Ezi. Nneka dealing wth A'ja by herself and carrying an offensive load for 4 quarters is just too much to ask. Again, missing a DPOY candidate just put so much pressure on everybody else, and I think they just got exhausted.

This was already going to be a tall task, but no Ezi makes it so hard. It's a defensive focused team missing their back-end stopper.

But they played so freaking well for 3 quarters, even in a tough spot.

I'm going to say this now because the season might be over in about 18 hours. Do NOT underestimate the Storm heading in 2025. They are going to be a problem.

Nneka is one of the absolute all-time greats, vastly under-appreciated, IMO. Skylar is too, and "messy hair-don't care" Skylar is my favorite Skylar. Jewel has a few years of dominance left (even if it's been touch and go this year). Ezi, Gabby, and Horston are absolute forces.

Gabby, in this game, man she's so awesome. She just kept it rolling with Olympics Gabby.

Not counting them out in this series, particularly if Ezi comes back tomorrow night.

But if tomorrow night is the end, don't overlook this team next year. Nneka, Jewel, and Skylar with all these talented young'ens is going to be a force. As the Liberty showed us, sometimes it can just take a year to get it all together.

[MrDollarBills]

I didn't watch the game but saw the box score of the Aces/Storm and what the hell happened in the last quarter? 14-2 in 10 minutes? It seemed Seattle didn't come back out after 3QT.

I don’t have ESPN, so I’m going to miss more than I would’ve otherwise this season (vs NBA TV, free Ion..but hey, bigger more popular network is def good for the league). Anyway, not sure, but I didn’t realize Ezi was going to miss time. That’s huge. Still think the Aces would come out on top, but it’d be much tougher.

Speaking of box scores…I’ve noticed of late that Chelsea Gray’s numbers are starting to look better. How does the eye test look to the board? Is she finally getting her legs back?

I’m personally rooting for a Liberty/Lynx final, but have a feeling the Aces are about to peak at the right time. [edit: FTR, I'm the only one who has voted Aces in the poll thus far]

Finally catching up on the game.

Short answer is that A'ja got going (in the 3rd), and Tip and Chelsea kept it going (she looks healthy).

Long answer is that I think Nneka, and really the whole team, got worn out trying to do more defensively than they normally would have with Ezi out there. Storm suffocated them in the 1st quarter.

GB Mercedes, but she's not Ezi. Nneka dealing wth A'ja by herself and carrying an offensive load for 4 quarters is just too much to ask. Again, missing a DPOY candidate just put so much pressure on everybody else, and I think they just got exhausted.

This was already going to be a tall task, but no Ezi makes it so hard. It's a defensive focused team missing their back-end stopper.

But they played so freaking well for 3 quarters, even in a tough spot.

I'm going to say this now because the season might be over in about 18 hours. Do NOT underestimate the Storm heading in 2025. They are going to be a problem.

Nneka is one of the absolute all-time greats, vastly under-appreciated, IMO. Skylar is too, and "messy hair-don't care" Skylar is my favorite Skylar. Jewel has a few years of dominance left (even if it's been touch and go this year). Ezi, Gabby, and Horston are absolute forces.

Gabby, in this game, man she's so awesome. She just kept it rolling with Olympics Gabby.

Not counting them out in this series, particularly if Ezi comes back tomorrow night.

But if tomorrow night is the end, don't overlook this team next year. Nneka, Jewel, and Skylar with all these talented young'ens is going to be a force. As the Liberty showed us, sometimes it can just take a year to get it all together.

I was gonna say, they remind me of how we looked last year. Good, but unsure on how to play with each other.

I would hope that core group + Ezi stays together.

[Green Chile]

I don’t have ESPN, so I’m going to miss more than I would’ve otherwise this season (vs NBA TV, free Ion..but hey, bigger more popular network is def good for the league). Anyway, not sure, but I didn’t realize Ezi was going to miss time. That’s huge. Still think the Aces would come out on top, but it’d be much tougher.

Speaking of box scores…I’ve noticed of late that Chelsea Gray’s numbers are starting to look better. How does the eye test look to the board? Is she finally getting her legs back?

I’m personally rooting for a Liberty/Lynx final, but have a feeling the Aces are about to peak at the right time. [edit: FTR, I'm the only one who has voted Aces in the poll thus far]

Finally catching up on the game.

Short answer is that A'ja got going (in the 3rd), and Tip and Chelsea kept it going (she looks healthy).

Long answer is that I think Nneka, and really the whole team, got worn out trying to do more defensively than they normally would have with Ezi out there. Storm suffocated them in the 1st quarter.

GB Mercedes, but she's not Ezi. Nneka dealing wth A'ja by herself and carrying an offensive load for 4 quarters is just too much to ask. Again, missing a DPOY candidate just put so much pressure on everybody else, and I think they just got exhausted.

This was already going to be a tall task, but no Ezi makes it so hard. It's a defensive focused team missing their back-end stopper.

But they played so freaking well for 3 quarters, even in a tough spot.

I'm going to say this now because the season might be over in about 18 hours. Do NOT underestimate the Storm heading in 2025. They are going to be a problem.

Nneka is one of the absolute all-time greats, vastly under-appreciated, IMO. Skylar is too, and "messy hair-don't care" Skylar is my favorite Skylar. Jewel has a few years of dominance left (even if it's been touch and go this year). Ezi, Gabby, and Horston are absolute forces.

Gabby, in this game, man she's so awesome. She just kept it rolling with Olympics Gabby.

Not counting them out in this series, particularly if Ezi comes back tomorrow night.

But if tomorrow night is the end, don't overlook this team next year. Nneka, Jewel, and Skylar with all these talented young'ens is going to be a force. As the Liberty showed us, sometimes it can just take a year to get it all together.

I was gonna say, they remind me of how we looked last year. Good, but unsure on how to play with each other.

I would hope that core group + Ezi stays together.

Ezi is back tonight, baby!

Taking down the Aces and A'ja is always a monumental task, but at least the Storm will get one crack at it at full strength.

[Green Chile]

And on that Game 1, the 1st quarter for the Aces was the worst shooting quarter of any WNBA team in the Playoffs since Indiana in 2015.

But that "honor" didn't last even 2 hours when the Storm went 0-12 in the 4th.

[Ice Man]

"Free and loose," sure.

Clark says she doesn't get nervous for games, but hmmm. In the first halves of her three biggest WNBA games -- her debut, the All Star game, and her first playoff game -- she made a total of one 3-point shot, on (in my memory) 16 combined attempts. That doesn't seem free and loose to me.

[jc23]

Having your playoffs run up against the undisputed American love child that is the NFL isnt ideal. I think for the growth of the league you need to have the playoffs end prior to the start of the NFL season or start after the Super Bowl. I suppose the main reason it wont happen is because the NBA would not want to cannibalize its own product.

I like the idea of it beginning after the Super Bowl the most. That is when people tune out the NBA the most and having the season start at a later date would allow for the rookies to get more practice time with their teams.

So as of today the season starts mid May. Move it to mid November and have the playoffs start mid March. That would then take you into the NBA playoffs start date.

edit: ****, forgot about March madness

[Ice Man]

edit: ****, forgot about March madness

Yes, you did!

Let's see. The WNBA Finals end in mid October. If you pushed that back to mid August, it would finish before regular season football. Let's also assume that the WNBA will lengthen its season, but no Olympics, so those two items wash. In other words, move back the start of the season by the same two months that you moved back the Finals. That would make for a mid February start.

I think that would work. You would make the rookies wait a long time to start their WNBA career, and the beginning of the season would overlap with March Madness, but once people had their appetites whetted with the NCAA Finals they could immediately switch to the WNBA, which would be ongoing. And then the playoff season for the WNBA would be pretty much unimpeded, as it would happen in July and August, when the major US sports are all silent, except for baseball.

[DOT]

"Free and loose," sure.

Clark says she doesn't get nervous for games, but hmmm. In the first halves of her three biggest WNBA games -- her debut, the All Star game, and her first playoff game -- she made a total of one 3-point shot, on (in my memory) 16 combined attempts. That doesn't seem free and loose to me.

Correlation does not equal causation, but two of those games were against the Sun

Also two of those games I was in attendance, so maybe it's me

[Green Chile]

edit: ****, forgot about March madness

Yes, you did!

Let's see. The WNBA Finals end in mid October. If you pushed that back to mid August, it would finish before regular season football. Let's also assume that the WNBA will lengthen its season, but no Olympics, so those two items wash. In other words, move back the start of the season by the same two months that you moved back the Finals. That would make for a mid February start.

I think that would work. You would make the rookies wait a long time to start their WNBA career, and the beginning of the season would overlap with March Madness, but once people had their appetites whetted with the NCAA Finals they could immediately switch to the WNBA, which would be ongoing. And then the playoff season for the WNBA would be pretty much unimpeded, as it would happen in July and August, when the major US sports are all silent, except for baseball.

They normally do wrap it up before the NFL starts in non Olympic years right, don't they?

[Ice Man]

Also two of those games I was in attendance, so maybe it's me

Had you been at the All Star game, I would call that ironclad proof.

Clark finished a respectable 4-11 on 3s in her first Sun game and was 2-4 in the second half yesterday. So, my sketchy hypothetical based on extremely limited data is that she comes out tight in the big games.