2024 WNBA Awards Discussion Thread

[Ice Man]

To downplay what she has done is crazy. Everyone benefited from her gravity. Leading in pts, assist, steals, 3pt made, etc for the entire rookie class. To think her 3pt has not been a factor. Imagine if it is and cut her TOs to at least 4 with a better schedule at the start, she would be my top 3 MVP race. BTW, Sabrina has been the best player for the Liberty, not Stewie.

1) All true about Clark.
2) I could see the argument for Sabrina. As with all stud PGs, she's the engine that drives the car.

Speaking of PGs, it's astonishing how poorly the impact stats treat female PGs. On WIn Shares per 40 minutes, Sabrina is the 16h ranked player in the league, behind such players as Emily Engstler and Nyara Sabally. Clark is God knows where, I can't count that far. She's behind Sami Whitcomb and Katie Samuelson. Because, you know, those two have had striking effects on their team's records.

PER is only a little better. Clark moves up quite a bit but Sabrina doesn't. You can tell me that two Wings player are better than Sabrina and a third is just as good, but I will never, ever believe you.

These measures don't give squat to shot creation, and they waaay overemphasize rebounding.

[sikma42]

If you just look at the talent on the Fever, they aren't overachieving. They have a very talented team. I've said that in the beginning, even when they were losing games. I think it's a bit disingenuous to act like this is all CC. The team would have about the same record if you switched CC with another good point guard.

CC is great and ROTY. But this is a good team and it was obvious from early in the season.

[cupcakesnake]

BTW, Sabrina has been the best player for the Liberty, not Stewie.

Too big a defensive gap to get there.

I can see an argument for valuing Sabrina's offense higher (though the stats don't tell that tale), and her defense has gotten a lot better this year... but Stewie is the disruptive backbone of their defense. 1.9 steals, 1.4 blocks, 8.8 rebounds. She puts way more pressure on the rim, and is an efficient playmaker. Sabrina handles the ball so she's a higher volume playmaker, but it's not clear to me that there's any gap in passing/playmaking skill.

[cdubbz]

If you just look at the talent on the Fever, they aren't overachieving. They have a very talented team. I've said that in the beginning, even when they were losing games. I think it's a bit disingenuous to act like this is all CC. The team would have about the same record if you switched CC with another good point guard.

CC is great and ROTY. But this is a good team and it was obvious from early in the season.

oh of course. Just like when people said swapping Dame Lillard for Curry would be pretty much the same

[MrDollarBills]

BTW, Sabrina has been the best player for the Liberty, not Stewie.

Too big a defensive gap to get there.

I can see an argument for valuing Sabrina's offense higher (though the stats don't tell that tale), and her defense has gotten a lot better this year... but Stewie is the disruptive backbone of their defense. 1.9 steals, 1.4 blocks, 8.8 rebounds. She puts way more pressure on the rim, and is an efficient playmaker. Sabrina handles the ball so she's a higher volume playmaker, but it's not clear to me that there's any gap in passing/playmaking skill.

Thank you, Stewie's defense is a huge reason as to why the Liberty are in the top 4 defensively, she does a ton of dirty work for this club.

[hermes]

what are the other awards? defense? comeback? coach?

[Ice Man]

The team would have about the same record if you switched CC with another good point guard.

This one is hard to believe.

[dockingsched]

If you just look at the talent on the Fever, they aren't overachieving. They have a very talented team. I've said that in the beginning, even when they were losing games. I think it's a bit disingenuous to act like this is all CC. The team would have about the same record if you switched CC with another good point guard.

CC is great and ROTY. But this is a good team and it was obvious from early in the season.

Fever already have two more wins than they’ve had since 2016 and still have 9 games left. Boston, Smith, MItchell, Hull, Wheeler, all carried over from the previous year. Your post is insane brother haha

[MrDollarBills]

what are the other awards? defense? comeback? coach?

Pretty much everything that we see on the men's side yeah

[MrDollarBills]

The team would have about the same record if you switched CC with another good point guard.

This one is hard to believe.

Yeah I have to disagree here.

Clark's gravity, rebounding on the defensive glass and ability to see over the defense in transition isn't something that's easily replicated.

[Mephariel]

Clark probably has ROTY locked up. Aja is MVP.

[boogiezen]

If you just look at the talent on the Fever, they aren't overachieving. They have a very talented team. I've said that in the beginning, even when they were losing games. I think it's a bit disingenuous to act like this is all CC. The team would have about the same record if you switched CC with another good point guard.

CC is great and ROTY. But this is a good team and it was obvious from early in the season.

NO. They've been in the lottery for 7 straight years! Also, Mitchell is the Fever's leading scorer for 7 straight years with no playoff appearance. The Fever was third to the last in pace last year. CC's impact on this team is clear. To downplay it is disingenuous.

[MrDollarBills]

I've made this comparison before, but Clark's impact on the Fever is akin to what Jason Kidd did when he was traded from the Phoenix Suns to the New Jersey Nets back in the 01-02 season. 26 wins the year before, 52 wins once he got there and the team excelled at fast pace floor running hoops as Kidd's rebounding and elite transition passing caused opposing teams nightmares. Sound familiar?

Obviously it's not a 1:1 situation as it took the Fever some time to figure things out, but the impact is just the same. Remove Kidd from that equation, the Nets were a lottery team. Remove Clark from the Fever and this team is nowhere near as dangerous and is probably picking high in the draft again, and that's no disrespect to anyone on the team but you can see who the engine of the offense is.

Clark's impact cannot be understated. The gravity, the play making, rebounding, the 1 v 1 plays, the range...she's as good as it gets and this is just her at age 22.

Her next steps: getting stronger, working on her defensive principles and footwork, developing a mid range skill set

[cupcakesnake]

I've made this comparison before, but Clark's impact on the Fever is akin to what Jason Kidd did when he was traded from the Phoenix Suns to the New Jersey Nets back in the 01-02 season. 26 wins the year before, 52 wins once he got there and the team excelled at fast pace floor running hoops as Kidd's rebounding and elite transition passing caused opposing teams nightmares. Sound familiar?

I get what you mean, but Kidd transformed those Nets through defense. Their offense got a little better (went from a -3 rOrtg to a -0.5 rOrtg), but their defense went 23rd to 1st. The team also got a lot bigger that year, adding Jason Collins and Todd MacCulloch to the rotation.

That rebounding and running was there stylistically though, and Kidd also allowed Kenyon Martin to get a few more easy baskets rather than operating a pure post up guy.

I think the big difference is that the Fever (with Aliya, Kelsey, and Nalyssa) were already a solid offense and poor defense. Early in the season, it was difficult to mesh Clark's hyper aggressive style with the existing pieces. Now it's working and the offense has gone from solid in 2023 to best in the league in the second half of 2024. I think it's more like Nash going to Phoenix, and turning a bunch of very good offenisve players into an offense the league can't guard.

[cupcakesnake]

Anyone have big thoughts on DPOY?

To me the main candidates are: Alyssa Thomas, Breanna Stewart, A'ja Wilson, Napheesa Collier, Ezi Magbegor, Alanna Smith

Anyone I'm missing/dissing?

[MrDollarBills]

I've made this comparison before, but Clark's impact on the Fever is akin to what Jason Kidd did when he was traded from the Phoenix Suns to the New Jersey Nets back in the 01-02 season. 26 wins the year before, 52 wins once he got there and the team excelled at fast pace floor running hoops as Kidd's rebounding and elite transition passing caused opposing teams nightmares. Sound familiar?

I get what you mean, but Kidd transformed those Nets through defense. Their offense got a little better (went from a -3 rOrtg to a -0.5 rOrtg), but their defense went 23rd to 1st. The team also got a lot bigger that year, adding Jason Collins and Todd MacCulloch to the rotation.

That rebounding and running was there stylistically though, and Kidd also allowed Kenyon Martin to get a few more easy baskets rather than operating a pure post up guy.

I think the big difference is that the Fever (with Aliya, Kelsey, and Nalyssa) were already a solid offense and poor defense. Early in the season, it was difficult to mesh Clark's hyper aggressive style with the existing pieces. Now it's working and the offense has gone from solid in 2023 to best in the league in the second half of 2024. I think it's more like Nash going to Phoenix, and turning a bunch of very good offenisve players into an offense the league can't guard.

You're right, I was moreso thinking about the PG rebounding and running aspect of the old Nets, that's what made them so exciting, just like the Fever of today. Clark is a superior shooter to Kidd but man the way she hits cutters. Whew!!! Gives me flashbacks.

The year before Kidd got there Kerry Kittles was hurt and we were just bad (I say we, I'm an old NJ Nets fan) defensively. Kidd's high defensive IQ along with the return of Kerry Kittles was a huge difference maker. That, and as you said, the addition of the two bigs (Jason Collins was criminally underrated defensively) and a certain wise ass named Richard Jefferson filling the lanes on the break with K-Mart. That might have been the happiest I've ever been watching basketball.

While I don't see the 1 to 1 comparison of the SSOL Suns in terms of that particular play style, your comparison is pretty spot on in terms of talent. They had a skilled big in Amare and a knock down scoring SG in Joe Johnson kinda like how the Fever have AB and K. Mitchell.

Full disclosure: I purposely try not to compare CC to Steve Nash, one of my biggest hoops pet peeves is the inclination to compare white players strictly to other white players because I feel weird doing it. Like when people compare Luka to Larry Bird, that irks me because Luka to me reminds me more of James Harden and Paul Pierce mixed into one. Does that make sense?

That being said, I see some Nash in CC's game, some Kidd, AND Harden. Not to mention her mentality...Payton and Jordan/Bryant like competitive fire.

The gal is a generational talent. I can't give her any higher praise and I look forward to watching her grow.

[Doctor MJ]

I've made this comparison before, but Clark's impact on the Fever is akin to what Jason Kidd did when he was traded from the Phoenix Suns to the New Jersey Nets back in the 01-02 season. 26 wins the year before, 52 wins once he got there and the team excelled at fast pace floor running hoops as Kidd's rebounding and elite transition passing caused opposing teams nightmares. Sound familiar?

I get what you mean, but Kidd transformed those Nets through defense. Their offense got a little better (went from a -3 rOrtg to a -0.5 rOrtg), but their defense went 23rd to 1st. The team also got a lot bigger that year, adding Jason Collins and Todd MacCulloch to the rotation.

That rebounding and running was there stylistically though, and Kidd also allowed Kenyon Martin to get a few more easy baskets rather than operating a pure post up guy.

I think the big difference is that the Fever (with Aliya, Kelsey, and Nalyssa) were already a solid offense and poor defense. Early in the season, it was difficult to mesh Clark's hyper aggressive style with the existing pieces. Now it's working and the offense has gone from solid in 2023 to best in the league in the second half of 2024. I think it's more like Nash going to Phoenix, and turning a bunch of very good offenisve players into an offense the league can't guard.

You're right, I was moreso thinking about the PG rebounding and running aspect of the old Nets, that's what made them so exciting, just like the Fever of today. Clark is a superior shooter to Kidd but man the way she hits cutters. Whew!!! Gives me flashbacks.

The year before Kidd got there Kerry Kittles was hurt and we were just bad (I say we, I'm an old NJ Nets fan) defensively. Kidd's high defensive IQ along with the return of Kerry Kittles was a huge difference maker. That, and as you said, the addition of the two bigs (Jason Collins was criminally underrated defensively) and a certain wise ass named Richard Jefferson filling the lanes on the break with K-Mart. That might have been the happiest I've ever been watching basketball.

While I don't see the 1 to 1 comparison of the SSOL Suns in terms of that particular play style, your comparison is pretty spot on in terms of talent. They had a skilled big in Amare and a knock down scoring SG in Joe Johnson kinda like how the Fever have AB and K. Mitchell.

Full disclosure: I purposely try not to compare CC to Steve Nash, one of my biggest hoops pet peeves is the inclination to compare white players strictly to other white players because I feel weird doing it. Like when people compare Luka to Larry Bird, that irks me because Luka to me reminds me more of James Harden and Paul Pierce mixed into one. Does that make sense?

That being said, I see some Nash in CC's game, some Kidd, AND Harden. Not to mention her mentality...Payton and Jordan/Bryant like competitive fire.

The gal is a generational talent. I can't give her any higher praise and I look forward to watching her grow.

I absolutely respect the caution when it comes to compare players based on race...

but yeah, to me Steve Nash happens to be the one here, and I'd like to emphasize similarities that have nothing to do with race, in part because I think the NBA still hasn't been actively seeking Nash-type prospects like they could.

What do I mean by Nash-type? Essentially:
- Ultra-fast wise decision maker
- Pusher of pace
- Intuitive at "Nashing" - probing to the interior to open up opportunities elsewhere - ftr, Nash called this "midgeting", now it's named after him.
- Exceptional coordination (which includes shooting)

Obviously not easy to find someone who has all of these features to outlier degrees, but I mean, given that scouts largely missed on Nash back in the '90s, you'd hope they'd at least be looking for this stuff now.

There's also the aspect of youth coaches shaping up the talent of course, but honestly in the post-Curry era, I think it's just natural for players to play along some spectrum of players with Kidd on one side and Reggie on the other (or to use a WNBA example, on a spectrum from Vandersloot to Quigley), and the Nash balance between shooting & passing is somewhere in between there.

Clark I think is clearly a bit more on the Regley side than the Kindersloot side relative to Nash, but still closer to Nash than to Curry (who to be clear, I'm saying isn't all the way to the end of the line either).

[Doctor MJ]

Anyone have big thoughts on DPOY?

To me the main candidates are: Alyssa Thomas, Breanna Stewart, A'ja Wilson, Napheesa Collier, Ezi Magbegor, Alanna Smith

Anyone I'm missing/dissing?

Big thoughts, I dunno, but definitely some thoughts on bigs among others.

So first I'll say is that ESPN recently ranked them:

1. Napheesa
2. A'ja
3. Ezi

Starting on that as a baseline makes me feel like this is Phee's year for DPOY. She's the star of the best defense (DRtg) in the league, she racks up boards, steals & blocks, and has a great defensive On/Off while playing a lot of minutes. In a nutshell, all the quantitative stuff is lining up with the journalists, and her team has momentum. The award seems likely to be hers thinking in those terms.

I'll add: Any voter who sides with A'ja over Phee in the MVP will probably feel good about giving Phee the DPOY.

I do think it's worth mentioning Alanna Smith as you did, and I'd be interested to hear people argue for her as the Lynx' most valuable defender, but I don't think that's the way the winds are blowing.

If we head down to the Ezi at 3 though, we see what I think is the candidate who could end up taking the award if things break right. Her defensive performance this year has everyone on notice. If the PheeLynx end the season with a whimper while the EziStorm thunders, I could see Ezi getting the award.

I feel like with AT, Stewie, and even A'ja, there's a sense deflation in their DPOY candidacies going on right now that relate to there being something disappointing about them or their team relative to prior years. I can definitely see A'ja or the other two grabbing a spot on the ballot, but that seems about it.

[cupcakesnake]

[

I'll add: Any voter who sides with A'ja over Phee in the MVP will probably feel good about giving Phee the DPOY.

This is a voter-savvy statement because that's what happened last year. A'ja, Stewie, and AT all had very strong cases for MVP, and A'ja/AT both had strong DPOY cases. Stewie won a very close MVP (AT actually had the most votes) and then Stewie didn't receive a single DPOY vote, which I was a little surprised by. I was also surprised to see A'ja get the nod for DPOY over AT, and it felt like some voters used DPOY as the MVP consolation prize.

There was this WNBA clothing brand called Playa Society that made an MVP Stewie shirt and a DPOY A'ja shirt. Then they made an Alyssa Thomas shirt in the same style, with the text "Had one of the best seasons ever" in the place of an award. I thought it was so funny and perfect but they sold out of my size before I could grab one!

I do think it's worth mentioning Alanna Smith as you did, and I'd be interested to hear people argue for her as the Lynx' most valuable defender, but I don't think that's the way the winds are blowing.

Yeah whenever a more backcourt defender is getting praise on a #1 defense, I'm always curious what's happening on the backline. It's hard to anchor a #1 defense with just superb on-ball defense. Alanna is averaging 1.7 blocks and 1.4 steals and is just superb at reading things on the backline. She's at the center of everything, and so consistent at getting to the spot that breaks up the play best. She's an excellent rim protector who can also junk up pick & roll actions really effectively. I think her work is more vital to the scheme then Phee's.

That being said... boy do I ever like watching Phee play defense. If I was a coach, I'd use her defensive tape to teach people how to play positional defense and disrupt with length. Wide stance, doesn't overreact, stonewalls by anticipating things with her feet, and then keeps her hands up. She's had a few blocks this year, where someone tries a pull up or turnaround, and she swallows the entire basketball with 2 hands. She doesn't even go for blocks, she just keeps her hands high. She's also ace at rotating to keep the scheme solid.

Phee and Alanna are both the types of defenders than make constant micro adjustments to maintain the integrity of the defensive scheme. Very proactive, 5 defenders attached by string type of work out of Minnesota this year.

[MrDollarBills]

I get what you mean, but Kidd transformed those Nets through defense. Their offense got a little better (went from a -3 rOrtg to a -0.5 rOrtg), but their defense went 23rd to 1st. The team also got a lot bigger that year, adding Jason Collins and Todd MacCulloch to the rotation.

That rebounding and running was there stylistically though, and Kidd also allowed Kenyon Martin to get a few more easy baskets rather than operating a pure post up guy.

I think the big difference is that the Fever (with Aliya, Kelsey, and Nalyssa) were already a solid offense and poor defense. Early in the season, it was difficult to mesh Clark's hyper aggressive style with the existing pieces. Now it's working and the offense has gone from solid in 2023 to best in the league in the second half of 2024. I think it's more like Nash going to Phoenix, and turning a bunch of very good offenisve players into an offense the league can't guard.

You're right, I was moreso thinking about the PG rebounding and running aspect of the old Nets, that's what made them so exciting, just like the Fever of today. Clark is a superior shooter to Kidd but man the way she hits cutters. Whew!!! Gives me flashbacks.

The year before Kidd got there Kerry Kittles was hurt and we were just bad (I say we, I'm an old NJ Nets fan) defensively. Kidd's high defensive IQ along with the return of Kerry Kittles was a huge difference maker. That, and as you said, the addition of the two bigs (Jason Collins was criminally underrated defensively) and a certain wise ass named Richard Jefferson filling the lanes on the break with K-Mart. That might have been the happiest I've ever been watching basketball.

While I don't see the 1 to 1 comparison of the SSOL Suns in terms of that particular play style, your comparison is pretty spot on in terms of talent. They had a skilled big in Amare and a knock down scoring SG in Joe Johnson kinda like how the Fever have AB and K. Mitchell.

Full disclosure: I purposely try not to compare CC to Steve Nash, one of my biggest hoops pet peeves is the inclination to compare white players strictly to other white players because I feel weird doing it. Like when people compare Luka to Larry Bird, that irks me because Luka to me reminds me more of James Harden and Paul Pierce mixed into one. Does that make sense?

That being said, I see some Nash in CC's game, some Kidd, AND Harden. Not to mention her mentality...Payton and Jordan/Bryant like competitive fire.

The gal is a generational talent. I can't give her any higher praise and I look forward to watching her grow.

I absolutely respect the caution when it comes to compare players based on race...

but yeah, to me Steve Nash happens to be the one here, and I'd like to emphasize similarities that have nothing to do with race, in part because I think the NBA still hasn't been actively seeking Nash-type prospects like they could.

What do I mean by Nash-type? Essentially:
- Ultra-fast wise decision maker
- Pusher of pace
- Intuitive at "Nashing" - probing to the interior to open up opportunities elsewhere - ftr, Nash called this "midgeting", now it's named after him.
- Exceptional coordination (which includes shooting)

Obviously not easy to find someone who has all of these features to outlier degrees, but I mean, given that scouts largely missed on Nash back in the '90s, you'd hope they'd at least be looking for this stuff now.

There's also the aspect of youth coaches shaping up the talent of course, but honestly in the post-Curry era, I think it's just natural for players to play along some spectrum of players with Kidd on one side and Reggie on the other (or to use a WNBA example, on a spectrum from Vandersloot to Quigley), and the Nash balance between shooting & passing is somewhere in between there.

Clark I think is clearly a bit more on the Regley side than the Kindersloot side relative to Nash, but still closer to Nash than to Curry (who to be clear, I'm saying isn't all the way to the end of the line either).

Speaking of the Steve Nash comparison, I learned today that Clark was actually a really good soccer player like Nash was