2025 WNBA Regular Season Discussion Thread

[MrDollarBills]

Could you imagine if people acted like this every time Jordan got put on his ass???

Actually, I think if Jordan were hit like that, it would have been a furor. He got fouled hard on drives, but I don't recall him every being snowplowed off the ball. Pretty sure his teammates would have cleared the benches if that had happened.

I mean, there's nothing like Mabrey's play in this 6 minute video of "Bad Boys Playoffs vs. Jordan/Bulls" incidents.

Watch on YouTube

Mabrey's play was in a different category than normal dirty play. It was more in the spirt of this one, which was a BIG controversy at the time.

Watch on YouTube

I still can't believe that the WNBA referees didn't instantly recognize that Mabrey crossed the line.

Jokic body checking Markief Morris is what it made me think of a bit. Morris I think actually got hurt from that, but Jokic is also a big guy.

Edit: looked it up because I was curious. Jokic ended up getting ejected and suspended a game for that hit.

Jokic literally gave Morris whiplash.

I don't want to see anything happen in the WNBA that is even coming close to hard-core NBA violence. Yeah last night was rough but this is apples to oranges here and folks are really exaggerating how bad Clark got hit. Angel Reese got literally choke slammed by Alyssa Thomas. Stop it. This is why I hate this discourse. It's disingenuous.

I've seen dudes get clotheslined and taken out in mid air. Scottie Pippen got tossed into the front row. Dr. J delivered blows to Larry Bird's face while Charles Barkley held him. Isiah Thomas got busted open by Karl Malone. Knicks vs Suns brawl from the 90s. Any Celtics/Pistons game from the 80s.

We are nowhere near any of that. This is Steve Nash getting body checked versus the Spurs level at worst.

[AI_Efficiency]

Actually, I think if Jordan were hit like that, it would have been a furor. He got fouled hard on drives, but I don't recall him every being snowplowed off the ball. Pretty sure his teammates would have cleared the benches if that had happened.

I mean, there's nothing like Mabrey's play in this 6 minute video of "Bad Boys Playoffs vs. Jordan/Bulls" incidents.

Watch on YouTube

Mabrey's play was in a different category than normal dirty play. It was more in the spirt of this one, which was a BIG controversy at the time.

Watch on YouTube

I still can't believe that the WNBA referees didn't instantly recognize that Mabrey crossed the line.

Jokic body checking Markief Morris is what it made me think of a bit. Morris I think actually got hurt from that, but Jokic is also a big guy.

Edit: looked it up because I was curious. Jokic ended up getting ejected and suspended a game for that hit.

Jokic literally gave Morris whiplash.

I don't want to see anything happen in the WNBA that is even coming close to hard-core NBA violence. Yeah last night was rough but this is apples to oranges here and folks are really exaggerating how bad Clark got hit. Angel Reese got literally choke slammed by Alyssa Thomas. Stop it. This is why I hate this discourse. It's disingenuous.

I've seen dudes get clotheslined and taken out in mid air. Scottie Pippen got tossed into the front row. Dr. J delivered blows to Larry Bird's face while Charles Barkley held him. Isiah Thomas got busted open by Karl Malone. Knicks vs Suns brawl from the 90s. Any Celtics/Pistons game from the 80s.

We are nowhere near any of that. This is Steve Nash getting body checked versus the Spurs level at worst.

I watched both the Clark and Jokic videos before posting and noted in my comment that Jokic is a big guy which I think was a large part of the damage. But I don’t think the actual charge / behavior was all that different. Agree to disagree I guess.

Edit: so here is the Jokic video - https://youtu.be/Yy8T53X_fx0?si=XLSzu7ry6t33TYWU. He gives a bit more of a shoulder twist on contact which caused more damage. They aren’t the same and Jokic’s was worse. But this was the hit that still came to my mind when seeing the Clark one.

[hermes]

regardless of how bad last night was compared to historical nba physicality, its only going to get worse from here unless the league does something about it, which they don't seem to be in a hurry to do

[Wingy]

Read on Twitter

you will see an uptick in viewership when the Fever and Sun play again. for all the wrong reasons of course; drama is a draw.

ESPN has been frothing at the mouth over this.

Could you imagine if people acted like this every time Jordan got put on his ass???

Entire books and 30 for 30 documentary series have been created to discuss Michael Jordan getting cheap shotted. It’s one of the defining narratives of his career. Are you new to basketball?? This is some extremely high level gaslighting and baiting, I give you props

When Caitlin Clark’s documentaries start dropping in 20 years the whole first part is going to be everyone going “man it was really messed up and insane how she was treated for the first couple years there”

I’ve barely been a fan of the league, started paying attention with Clark actually, and one pretty quickly learns that Mabrey is one of the biggest irritants in the entire WNBA. Yes, Mabrey deserved to be ejected in that game, and a “big” fine too, but let’s not act like she doesn’t have an m.o. and is singling out poor little Caitlin.

She gets into dust ups like this all the time, plenty of clips with her always in the middle of controversy and chippiness. Here she is throwing a chicken wing at 6x all star Skylar Diggins. I’m certain there would’ve been a massive public outcry had she happened to hit her in the face with this one:

Watch on YouTube

Techs were warranted for Sheldon, Clark, maybe Charles but all she mainly did was point. Other than Mabrey not getting the boot, I don’t have a problem with any of it. It’s basketball and players competing.

Maybe Clark “fans” might give her the simple respect of recognizing she’s a fierce competitor and not some dainty princess. She dishes out elbows, push offs, and talks ****. She’s a baller, but gets treated like a child by her “fans.”

As someone already pointed out, she’d been going at it vs Sheldon in the Big Ten for years already…and same draft class. Surely all the Clark “fans” know that context and don’t lump Sheldon into the big bad WNBA, who all 100% hate Clark. Geez, why would those two players go at it?

People complain incessantly about the best refs in the world in the NBA. Keep that in mind. Then consider the salary of the players in the WNBA. Then people wonder why the refs suck and can’t keep these things under better control? Improving the ref talent should be a point of investment and emphasis as the league grows, but it’s not going to happen over night.

[AI_Efficiency]

ESPN has been frothing at the mouth over this.

Could you imagine if people acted like this every time Jordan got put on his ass???

Entire books and 30 for 30 documentary series have been created to discuss Michael Jordan getting cheap shotted. It’s one of the defining narratives of his career. Are you new to basketball?? This is some extremely high level gaslighting and baiting, I give you props

When Caitlin Clark’s documentaries start dropping in 20 years the whole first part is going to be everyone going “man it was really messed up and insane how she was treated for the first couple years there”

I’ve barely been a fan of the league, started paying attention with Clark actually, and one pretty quickly learns that Mabrey is one of the biggest irritants in the entire WNBA. Yes, Mabrey deserved to be ejected in that game, and a “big” fine too, but let’s not act like she doesn’t have an m.o. and is singling out poor little Caitlin.

She gets into dust ups like this all the time, plenty of clips with her always in the middle of controversy and chippiness. Here she is throwing a chicken wing at 6x all star Skylar Diggins. I’m certain there would’ve been a massive public outcry had she happened to hit her in the face with this one:

Watch on YouTube

Techs were warranted for Sheldon, Clark, maybe Charles but all she mainly did was point. Other than Mabrey not getting the boot, I don’t have a problem with any of it. It’s basketball and players competing.

Maybe Clark “fans” might give her the simple respect of recognizing she’s a fierce competitor and not some dainty princess. She dishes out elbows, push offs, and talks ****. She’s a baller, but gets treated like a child by her “fans.”

As someone already pointed out, she’d been going at it vs Sheldon in the Big Ten for years already…and same draft class. Surely all the Clark “fans” know that context and don’t lump Sheldon into the big bad WNBA, who all 100% hate Clark. Geez, why would those two players go at it?

People complain incessantly about the best refs in the world in the NBA. Keep that in mind. Then consider the salary of the players in the WNBA. Then people wonder why the refs suck and can’t keep these things under better control? Improving the ref talent should be a point of investment and emphasis as the league grows, but it’s not going to happen over night.

Watched cowherd today while I worked from home and this was basically his take. Like whether it was Shaq, Gretzky, Jordan, there is always a lot of physical play and the refs can struggle to handle it, especially in the beginning, and especially here where maybe the refs aren’t as skilled as nba refs. But his point was that it will all work itself out and it isn’t a big deal which I think is right. And Caitlin Clark herself doesn’t seem worried about it.

[Wingy]

Watched cowherd today while I worked from home and this was basically his take. Like whether it was Shaq, Gretzky, Jordan, there is always a lot of physical play and the refs can struggle to handle it, especially in the beginning, and especially here where maybe the refs aren’t as skilled as nba refs. But his point was that it will all work itself out and it isn’t a big deal which I think is right. And Caitlin Clark herself doesn’t seem worried about it.

Colin’s not typically making genius observations, but I find he’s generally pretty rational and reasonable unlike many of the bombastic opinionators out there.

Clark’s not worried because she’s an all-time women’s basketball talent. You don’t get where she is without being tough and a competitor.

[G R E Y]

Watched cowherd today while I worked from home and this was basically his take. Like whether it was Shaq, Gretzky, Jordan, there is always a lot of physical play and the refs can struggle to handle it, especially in the beginning, and especially here where maybe the refs aren’t as skilled as nba refs. But his point was that it will all work itself out and it isn’t a big deal which I think is right. And Caitlin Clark herself doesn’t seem worried about it.

Colin’s not typically making genius observations, but I find he’s generally pretty rational and reasonable unlike many of the bombastic opinionators out there.

Clark’s not worried because she’s an all-time women’s basketball talent. You don’t get where she is without being tough and a competitor.

I remember when McDavid was drafted by the Oilers as 'The Next One' he was targeted and eventually was injured and on the IR for a long time. Can't recall if it was collar bone break but he was taken into the boards behind the net in a brutal way.

He has a quiet personality and still had a big target on his back. His incredible skill and speed and power did a lot of the talking. A lot of guys just bully the next generation as a rite of passage/FU rookie/some resentment at attention a phenom gets.

There seems to be all of that and player history and Clark having a big on court persona/personality that is playing into some beyond basketball aggression. League has to come down harder on it so as to not sell the ancillary bs over the growing talent coming into the game.

p.s. Maybe the clips I've seen are too short but where TF are Clark's teammates?

[Green Chile]

I don't know if it's going to work, but I think we must give Koclanes a little credit for these last 2 games.

Friday, they dominated the Aces for 37 minutes (more on that).
Tuesday, they beat America's team, the Valkyries.

Yeah, no A'ja, and the Valks are missing a lot to EuroBasket, but as I said, any team with Kayla, Veronica, and MoBill has a chance. Still a very good team Tip was back and they still had enough talent that Martin only got 8 minutes. Valks far from totally depleted.
Wings are without some players too. Maddy now with a broken patella. Tiera, and IMO, more importantly, Geiselsoder to EuroBasket (she's looked very good).

I particularly must give him credit for the DiJonai thing.

DiJonai did not start against the Valkyries.
Normally, that would seem like a silly thing (and since it's Koclanes, that's what most would assume). But I think he had to do something after the end of the Aces game.

A big part of the epic Aces meltdown was DiJonai's meltdown. She wanted Koclanes to challenge a call, and was heated about it. That's normal. What's not normal is that when Koclanes said no, and then when the Aces inbounded the ball in a pivotal play, DiJonai went to other side of the court, on a freaking live play, to yell in Koclanes' face about it.

As you might imagine, the Aces scored on the 4 on 5 play, and the comeback marched on. DiJonai was pretty well worthless the rest of the game, fouling like crazy as the Wings big win continued to vanish.

This way over the line and he had to do something, but I didn't think Koclanes had the stones to do it.

So, he brought DiJonai off the bench for the Valkyries game.
They get the win, and DiJonai had a great game off the bench. 1-9 shooting doesn't tell the story. She was aggressive driving the rim and getting to the line. Played her butt off on defense. Responded well on the court.

Anyway, they had a big issue Friday. Koclanes did something and DiJonai responded positively.

Koclanes is known as a good X's and O's coach that's a pushover.

We'll see how it goes, but it seems like a step in the right direction if it's going to get better.

And Curt Miller's got to back off. During the DiJonai challenge ordeal, Curt Miller yelled from the stands for Koclanes to challenge the call. I think yelled for him to call a timeout at one point too.

[Ice Man]

I've seen Jordan take way worse than what CC experienced last night. Come on now.

As I wrote, there is a difference between a hard foul when somebody has the ball (the stuff versus Jordan) and being smacked off the ball. I don't recall the latter with Jordan, but maybe a clip exists.

As a personal note, written as a Bulls fan who was watching those games live during the late Eighties/early Nineties (meaning that my knowledge is not simply formed by other people's comments and videos), I always found the Pistons/Bulls reputation to be understated. The game was dirtier in the Eighties than it is today, with more cheap shots and bench fights than today, but it wasn't very pyhsical by curent standards. For example, if you watch this highlight video fron Game 7 of the 1988 Finals, you will see that this year's OKC/Indy Finals had more defenders grabbing, clutching, in your face. There was space on the perimeter back then, as well as less off-the-ball shoving in the paint.

Watch on YouTube

So, when the Pistons came along and instituted a more aggressive defense on Jordan, that was a big deal. Plus, it was Mike and everything about Mike was news. So, the whole thing blew up into this giant story. But honestly, at least in my view, it was mostly argy-bargy (soccer term).

This hard & direct forearm to the head in a WNBA game (against Clark, as it turns out, but that's not actually my point) was as bad or worse than anything that the Pistons did to Mike. A play like that against Jordan would still be viral on youtube, serving as a dramatic example of the viciousness of the Pistons-Bulls rivalry.

In the WNBA game, it was no foul, play on.

Watch on YouTube

Bad referees are dangerous.

[MrDollarBills]

ESPN has been frothing at the mouth over this.

Could you imagine if people acted like this every time Jordan got put on his ass???

Entire books and 30 for 30 documentary series have been created to discuss Michael Jordan getting cheap shotted. It’s one of the defining narratives of his career. Are you new to basketball?? This is some extremely high level gaslighting and baiting, I give you props

When Caitlin Clark’s documentaries start dropping in 20 years the whole first part is going to be everyone going “man it was really messed up and insane how she was treated for the first couple years there”

I’ve barely been a fan of the league, started paying attention with Clark actually, and one pretty quickly learns that Mabrey is one of the biggest irritants in the entire WNBA. Yes, Mabrey deserved to be ejected in that game, and a “big” fine too, but let’s not act like she doesn’t have an m.o. and is singling out poor little Caitlin.

She gets into dust ups like this all the time, plenty of clips with her always in the middle of controversy and chippiness. Here she is throwing a chicken wing at 6x all star Skylar Diggins. I’m certain there would’ve been a massive public outcry had she happened to hit her in the face with this one:

Watch on YouTube

Techs were warranted for Sheldon, Clark, maybe Charles but all she mainly did was point. Other than Mabrey not getting the boot, I don’t have a problem with any of it. It’s basketball and players competing.

Maybe Clark “fans” might give her the simple respect of recognizing she’s a fierce competitor and not some dainty princess. She dishes out elbows, push offs, and talks ****. She’s a baller, but gets treated like a child by her “fans.”

As someone already pointed out, she’d been going at it vs Sheldon in the Big Ten for years already…and same draft class. Surely all the Clark “fans” know that context and don’t lump Sheldon into the big bad WNBA, who all 100% hate Clark. Geez, why would those two players go at it?

People complain incessantly about the best refs in the world in the NBA. Keep that in mind. Then consider the salary of the players in the WNBA. Then people wonder why the refs suck and can’t keep these things under better control? Improving the ref talent should be a point of investment and emphasis as the league grows, but it’s not going to happen over night.

Thank you. They act like this stuff happens in a vacuum. CC is a fierce competitor. Jordan, Bryant levels of competitiveness. With that comes good and bad. God rest his soul, I've seen Kobe get punched in the face and choked on a scorers table. None of that was one sided.

I'm sorry but the way she's infantilized by her fans is highly problematic. She's not asking to be protected or coddled.

Refs aside, the psycho fans and the media who rage baits to the culture warriors in her fanbase for clicks are the problem here. Not CC. Or the other players.

[MrDollarBills]

Sophie Cunningham blasted Sabrina the other day with an elbow to the jaw. If that happened to CC, people would be calling for the league to be shut down. It's ridiculous.

These are grown women/people, and this is highly disrespectful and frankly i think it reeks of misogyny too.

Jacy Sheldon has been receiving death threats on her Instagram because of this. People need to think about what they're doing when they try to push this fake narrative that the players are out to hurt Clark. It's a lie, and a dangerous one.

[Ice Man]

Sophie Cunningham blasted Sabrina the other day with an elbow to the jaw. If that happened to CC, people would be calling for the league to be shut down. It's ridiculous.

These are grown women/people, and this is highly disrespectful and frankly i think it reeks of misogyny too.

Jacy Sheldon has been receiving death threats on her Instagram because of this. People need to think about what they're doing when they try to push this fake narrative that the players are out to hurt Clark. It's a lie, and a dangerous one.

I agree 100%. To be clear, my comments on this thread are intended as glosses on professional basketball history, rather than any attempt to claim that Clark is being uniquely targeted -- or that racism is a factor. (As evidenced by the skin color of both Sheldon and Mabrey.)

I mean, this is the way that competitive basketball works. The best way to defend an elite player is to body that player up, bump them around, commit constant borderline fouls that you hope aren't called. It happened to Mike, it happened to Shaq, and it now happens to Steph, Jokic, and Caitlin. 'Tis the way of the world

But Steph gets into fewer scraps than Cailtin because he's not as feisty in retaliation.

[Wingy]

Thank you. They act like this stuff happens in a vacuum. CC is a fierce competitor. Jordan, Bryant levels of competitiveness. With that comes good and bad. God rest his soul, I've seen Kobe get punched in the face and choked on a scorers table. None of that was one sided.

I'm sorry but the way she's infantilized by her fans is highly problematic. She's not asking to be protected or coddled.

Refs aside, the psycho fans and the media who rage baits to the culture warriors in her fanbase for clicks are the problem here. Not CC. Or the other players.

As you can tell from my post, I agree. The only point where I’d diverge slightly is the statement on other players not being the problem.

They overwhelmingly aren’t a “problem,” but one-off players should be addressed with appropriate suspensions should their behavior continue. These players can be counted on one hand (prob don’t even need the whole hand), and not representative of the league as a whole.

Mabrey is one to monitor for always being involved in stuff like this. It’s like Draymond going on and on and on…though what he’s done is far worse than anything I’ve seen MM ever do. The leagues should both reprimand pattern behavior.

I don’t know if they do the N# technicals = suspension like the NBA, but that seems like an appropriate rule for the W too. Don’t over index on any complaining or the dust ups.

[Ice Man]

I don’t know if they do the N# technicals = suspension like the NBA, but that seems like an appropriate rule for the W too.

The WBNA does. The 7th technical in a season earns a suspension. Clark received her 6th late last season, leading to a bunch of articles about how she was on the verge of being suspended, but she kept her cool after that.

[Wingy]

The WBNA does. The 7th technical in a season earns a suspension. Clark received her 6th late last season, leading to a bunch of articles about how she was on the verge of being suspended, but she kept her cool after that.

Thanks, Ice. I usually look that kind of stuff up myself, but sneaking in some posts and RGM before deep diving into work.

[AI_Efficiency]

Watched cowherd today while I worked from home and this was basically his take. Like whether it was Shaq, Gretzky, Jordan, there is always a lot of physical play and the refs can struggle to handle it, especially in the beginning, and especially here where maybe the refs aren’t as skilled as nba refs. But his point was that it will all work itself out and it isn’t a big deal which I think is right. And Caitlin Clark herself doesn’t seem worried about it.

Colin’s not typically making genius observations, but I find he’s generally pretty rational and reasonable unlike many of the bombastic opinionators out there.

Clark’s not worried because she’s an all-time women’s basketball talent. You don’t get where she is without being tough and a competitor.

I remember when McDavid was drafted by the Oilers as 'The Next One' he was targeted and eventually was injured and on the IR for a long time. Can't recall if it was collar bone break but he was taken into the boards behind the net in a brutal way.

He has a quiet personality and still had a big target on his back. His incredible skill and speed and power did a lot of the talking. A lot of guys just bully the next generation as a rite of passage/FU rookie/some resentment at attention a phenom gets.

There seems to be all of that and player history and Clark having a big on court persona/personality that is playing into some beyond basketball aggression. League has to come down harder on it so as to not sell the ancillary bs over the growing talent coming into the game.

p.s. Maybe the clips I've seen are too short but where TF are Clark's teammates?

Clark’s teammate Sophie Cunningham got ejected at the end of the last game for a flagrant foul on a breakaway that was basically just a retaliation for earlier. But agree, the fever need their non-star / non-essential players to be willing to muck it up / retaliate to protect Clark. As noted in this thread, Clark does plenty of trash talk herself, but she’s too important to be risking techs, ejections, etc. This Cunningham girl might be her Charles Oakley, apparently she got a black belt at age 6.

[cdubbz]

I'm going to the Fever @ Valkyrie game tonight! Can't wait

[Ice Man]

I'm going to the Fever @ Valkyrie game tonight! Can't wait

Wave to me as I watch on Prime.

[jc23]

it does seem like the wnba has been getting by with poor reffing and it has negatively influenced how the games are called/played. SO if your an nba fan coming over to watch CC games and your hyper focused on just her i can see why it looks like targeting. When in fact it mostly (not all) falls into the category of ordinary wnba game happenings.

When you watch other games you will see a bunch of other players getting clocked in the head as well. the league is far from polished. way too many players still miss bunnies and layups to be playing at this high of a level. part of these criticism come from the fact that a larger amount of eyes are now on your product. IN some ways the wnba was a tree that fell in the woods. If something happened in the past there was little to no coverage on it. Now you have a seat at the table and it comes with new responsibilities.

[Ice Man]

When you watch other games you will see a bunch of other players getting clocked in the head as well. the league is far from polished. way too many players still miss bunnies and layups to be playing at this high of a level. part of these criticism come from the fact that a larger amount of eyes are now on your product. IN some ways the wnba was a tree that fell in the woods. If something happened in the past there was little to no coverage on it. Now you have a seat at the table and it comes with new responsibilities.

That is how I read the situation too.