Milwaukee Bucks Fans "Childress Was Jordan In Europe"

[Hassassin]

Completely forgot about this thread

Jose Calderon is an above average PG and one of the most efficient PG's whereas the rest of the players you listed couldn't even hold Jose's jockstrap in the NBA

Why? What's your argument to make Calderon a far superior NBA player relatively to those guys? I don't agree at all. The others are debatable, but a prime Papaloukas would have been a better player than Calderon in the NBA, in Europe and even in Mars, don't you think?

My argument that the present day Jose Calderon is a superior NBA player than any of those players listed and why they wont win more NBA games for the Raptors than Jose?

Regarding Saras, now people can try and blame the situation in Indiana, the coach Rick Carlisle or whomever however its up to the player to make it work. To add to that, Jose wasn't exactly handed his position. He had to earn his way to the starting lineup and his play eventually forced the Raptors to trade TJ Ford, a player that they traded Villanueva for. And if I recall correctly Colangelo was heavily criticized for that move since Villanueva's value was sky high after his excellent rookie campaign.

Saying that Saras would help the Raptors win more games is very laughable considering that current Saras is past his prime and is 33 years old. Hell even prime Saras at age 29 couldn't beat out Anthony Johnson for the primary backup position in the 2005-06 season. Compared to Saras, Anthony Johnson put up better assist percentages, lower turnover percentages while having a similar usage percentage. In addition Saras averaged ~20 minutes a game over 75 games in a year where Tinsley only played played 42 games. 2006-07 season, 30 year old Saras has to compete with Tinsley, Armstong, Daniels and others for minutes yet Saras struggles to find a regular spot in the rotation. Minutes drop to ~18 per game but puts up comparable production (PER decreases but better per 40 scoring/assist numbers). Gets traded to the Warriors midway through the season in the Jackson-Murphy deal and becomes a benchwarmer in Oakland. Season ends, he eventually signs with Panathinaikos in the offseason and that concludes Saras' NBA career.

If you compare Jose's 2005-06 season to Saras' 2005-06 season then Saras outperformed Jose. Jose averaged ~2 more minutes on a significantly worse Toronto team and performed poorly. He was a terrible shooter in his rookie year but he did have the nagging heel injury throughout the season. Keep in mind that one of the reasons Jose was signed was because Roko Ukic decided to stay in Europe rather than come over to play for the Raptors. Nonetheless Jose was an afterthought and was seen as nothing more than an average backup at best going into the 2005-06 season. During the 2005-06 offseason one of Colangelo's main focus was to improve the point guard position. He trades Villanueva for TJ Ford and his attempts to land another pick to draft Marcus Williams was unsuccessful. During the 2006-07 season Jose's play turns heads(see the spike in his PER numbers) and becomes one of the best(if not the best) backup PGs in the league. During 2007-08 season, ignoring all the TJ-Jose controversy, Jose solidifies his spot as the starter at the PG spot over TJ Ford.

Now what if Saras signed with Toronto in 2005-06? Would he receive more minutes? Would he be in a better situation? Mike James had a career season that year averaging 20 points (infact was a better player than any Pacer PG that season) and I highly doubt that Saras would have done any better in Jose's position. Not only that, he would have been playing under a worser coach in Mitchell (according to SI polls) and on a worser team. Colangelo would have STILL made the move for Ford and if Jose wasn't on the current roster, chances are that TJ Ford would still be a Toronto Raptor.

Now lets flip that see what if Jose signed a 3 year contract with Indiana. Chances are he probably would struggled the same way he did in Toronto in his first year and probably would have seen the same type of improvement in his 2nd year. Remember, he was playing behind better point guards, (Mike James and TJ Ford) in both the 2005-06 and 2006-07 seasons. In the 2006-07 season he probably would have seen the same increase in production, provided he had the same work ethic as he did in Toronto(no reason not to) and probably would have had the starting PG spot by the end of the year. He only had to beat out Tinsley and players like Armstrong, Daniels etc for PG minutes. He would be playing under a "better" coach in Carlisle with much less competition for minutes in terms of talent.

Looking at V-Span's situation, he was playing on a team that won 52 games in 2006-07 primarily playing behind Alston and Head and competing with Lucas for minutes. I'm not gonna bother looking at Vassilis Spanoulis's production with the Rockets since it would be a waste of my time. Now what if he signed with Toronto? He had serious problems adjusting to life in the states, I guess more specifically Texas. He didn't even want to play for the Spurs, an organization that is international player friendly, even if he was given the starting position (like anyone in their right mind will).

In Toronto, he would have been playing behind TJ Ford (again better PG than anyone on the Rockets roster) however he probably would have liked Toronto a lot better because of Toronto's multicultural makeup. However V-Span was mentally weak and I guess couldn't handle the NBA lifestyle. Who knows how he would have turned out if he came to Toronto however if he is that mentally soft, he probably wouldn't have made much of an impact. Its not comparable to Jose, Jose worked his ass off to be where is today and didn't fold just because things were not going his way.

Now what if Jose signed with Houston? Again, he probably would have struggled in his first year like he did in Toronto but IMO, he would have eventually beat out the likes of Rafer Alston for the starting position the next season. Again...provided that he had the same work ethic as he did in Toronto(and again no reason not to).Again he would have been playing under a "better" coach in Jeff Van Gundy rather than Sam Mitchell and with better team mates like Yao Ming.

Regarding Navarro, he wasn't on the list of PG's that KWSN-Men referred to and is not a PG. Had Jose signed with Memphis he would have seen a lot of opportunities in 2006-07 and 2007-08 primarily since the Grizzlies lacked talent at the PG positions.

Calderon wasn't the same player he is today when he joined the NBA. In fact, if Calderon had returned to Europe after his rookie season, I suspect that Ha!'s opinion on him would be quite different. A large majority of the people would see him as some scrub without enough quality to start in the NBA, let alone to be an above average player.

Sure. That is a very realistic scenario. If Jose negotiated a buyout and returned to Europe and showed no improvement in his game, then yes my opinion would be quite different because Jose was a scrub in his 1st year and I would not have followed his career unless he became "Magic Johnson in Europe". Everyone saw it including the former exec of the year Bryan Colangelo.

Put Papaloulas in a team with a ball-dominant wing and ask him to defend the opponent PG and play off-the-ball: epic bust. Allow him to handle the playmaking and surround him with shooters, screeners and defenders: better player than Calderon.

Uh not really, Papaloukas's poor shooting, poor athletic ability and lateral quicks, and flashy/turn over prone passing style would have made him a liability and would have pissed off many NBA coaches.

[robbe]

Uh not really, Papaloukas's poor shooting, poor athletic ability and lateral quicks, and flashy/turn over prone passing style would have made him a liability and would have pissed off many NBA coaches.

Believe me, Papaloukas played for Messina, he wouldn't piss off any NBA coach with his passing. The guy simply doesn't allow you to make many mistakes. If you have watched a single CSKA game, every NBA game looks like anarchy. Clearly Papaloukas is a far superior passer compared to Jose, and he isn't particularly flashy for NBA standards either.

As for athleticism, I know that at the very latest since the in Europe notoriously bad defensive player Jasikevicius didn't play well in the NBA, every white European import is labelled as unathletic, and usually in the same sentence a defensive liability, because, well ... it has to be like that. Funny then that even slow old Garbo was able to hold his own on the small forward (!) position.

Anyway, a guy like V-Span played in the NBA in 06/07, and he didn't make serious improvement before the end of this season, when he was really exceptional.

[Greek]

Dont forget that Papaloukas is legit 6'7 PG, who can post the smaller player. I actually think that he could be a great role player on the NBA considering that even if he was the best player of his team he was coming from the bench.

Spanoulis has all the tools that needed to play a big role in the NBA. I think that his main problem was that he believed that he could earn much more time from the start, and he couldnt handle the fact that in the NBA he couldnt be a star, but a nice role player.

[Hassassin]

Believe me, Papaloukas played for Messina, he wouldn't piss off any NBA coach with his passing. The guy simply doesn't allow you to make many mistakes. If you have watched a single CSKA game, every NBA game looks like anarchy. Clearly Papaloukas is a far superior passer compared to Jose, and he isn't particularly flashy for NBA standards either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g98ZR90KuEE

Isn't flashy? Now Papaloukas ain't Jason Williams(I guess my other post hinted otherwise) but the point is you'll rarely see Jose make any of those types of passes. I've noticed him leaving his feet couple of times before making a pass which is dangerous because it can easily lead to a turnover.

And you are really underrating Jose here. He rarely makes mistakes running the team. You have to be very very efficient to run a team the way he does.

As for athleticism, I know that at the very latest since the in Europe notoriously bad defensive player Jasikevicius didn't play well in the NBA, every white European import is labelled as unathletic, and usually in the same sentence a defensive liability, because, well ... it has to be like that. Funny then that even slow old Garbo was able to hold his own on the small forward (!) position.

Not really. Rudy Fernandez, Andrei Kirilenko, Marco Belinelli, Andris Biedrins ... to name a few . Its generally the casual NBA fanbase that tend to make these stereotypes. However a lot of white European imports cannot be compared to above average NBA athletes. Its not stereotyping, its just how it is simply because of the physical talents that is available in the NBA. A more skilled player like Hedo Turkoglu is a lot less athletic then say a Hakim Warrick. But that doesn't necessarily make the import a worser player or make him a worser defender.

Slow old Garbo wasn't a liability defensively because he had very high basketball IQ. He was a solid team defender and knew where to be on the court in terms of rotations, positions etc.

Dont forget that Papaloukas is legit 6'7 PG, who can post the smaller player. I actually think that he could be a great role player on the NBA considering that even if he was the best player of his team he was coming from the bench.

Sure, but how many team NBA teams feature their role players like that? Most successful role players need 3 point range. Papaloukas doesn't have it.

Listen I'm not gonna sit here and say that he won't be an effective player in the NBA. He probably could be a good role player. But that isn't the issue here. To say that he will help win more NBA games than Jose is vastly underrating Jose Calderon and blatantly overrating the others.

Spanoulis has all the tools that needed to play a big role in the NBA. I think that his main problem was that he believed that he could earn much more time from the start, and he couldnt handle the fact that in the NBA he couldnt be a star, but a nice role player.

He was misled by whomever into thinking that he will be receiving a lot of playing and will be on T-Mac level in the NBA, like he was in Europe. That is generally not the case for most foreign players coming in to the NBA as they usually have to prove themselves all over again. And players generally don't find success in the NBA if they are mentally fragile.

[kuhane gace]

you all confusing your self with this nba-europ comparisons...player that is good in nba dosen't necsesery need to be good in europ and the other way around...for sample tony parker no mather what stats says when playing for NT is just average player while in nba he is all star, jasikevicius (prime) was superstar for NT in nba he was average player. simple...rules are diffrent, stayle is difrent...like roko ukic said for croatian media most of you probably know that but many of you are not aware what real difrence is....besides the obvius rules (3 point line, zone...), style ( NBA more individual,- europ more team oriented)...there are also lots of other difrent things. for sample most of NBA coaches have like abot 100 difrent type of plays, but most of them are short specials easy to remmeber and relyse more of individual abilitys while in europ most of coaches have 10-15 plays but much more detiled worked out with lot of team work, fake moveings...and the bigest diference is defense. in nba coaches relyse on individual D while in europ its all detailed team work and I don't mean just zone D, it's all detiled team work, helps, rotations etc...also in nba coaches rotate players difrent then in europ. in nba starsers play in first Q, most of time 2nd Q is for scrubs, 3rd is for starers then first 2,3 min. of 4th is for some scrubs and rest is for starters while in europ some coaches even rotating players evrey fev min. tu keep high presure and only fev players plays more then 55% of game in some teams and also changing their starters, rotations etc. more on oponent, situation,...moments then in nba......nba is more players individual abilitys, europ is more coaches chase games and because of that that's why parker is better player in NBA then jasikevicius and thats why jasikevicius is better player in europ then parker, and this topic related that is why childress wosn't jordan in erup, he was just a solid role player.....one more thing. childress wasn't lazy in europ or unmotivated. two things I realy liked about him. He wasn't typical american "tough gangsta wonnbe" like most are trying to show them selfs and he always looked like a guy that plays with 100%

[Mumbles]

nba is more players individual abilitys, europ is more coaches chase games and because of that that's why parker is better player in NBA then jasikevicius and thats why jasikevicius is better player in europ then parker, and this topic related that is why childress wosn't jordan in erup, he was just a solid role player.....one more thing. childress wasn't lazy in europ or unmotivated. two things I realy liked about him. He wasn't typical american "tough gangsta wonnbe" like most are trying to show them selfs and he always looked like a guy that plays with 100%

lol, this whole thread is based off of one, count em one comment from a lone Atlanta Hawks fan on a completely different website . but lets not let that get in the way of KWSN posting another horribly inaccurate thread title.

[NetsForce]

I love the false claim that the Euroleague is more team-oriented while the NBA is more one-on-one, it doesn't help that NBA announcers regurgitate the lie, but then again any knowledgeable fan stopped paying attention to them years ago.

[robbe]

I love the false claim that the Euroleague is more team-oriented while the NBA is more one-on-one, it doesn't help that NBA announcers regurgitate the lie, but then again any knowledgeable fan stopped paying attention to them years ago.

Not a false claim, reality. Take a look at the topscorers of last season's Euroleague finalists, Panathinaikos and CSKA: Pekovic led PAO with 13 a game, while Lorbek led CSKA with 12 point something per game. Scoring is widely spread, the offense is carried by many shoulders.

By the way, this is what Mike Brown [who is getting advice every offseason by new Real Madrid headcoach Ettore Messina] had to say regarding this topic:

We have such talented players as Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Allen Iverson, Carmelo Anthony. You can give those guys the ball and ask them to create an offence for you. In Europe you don’t necessary have those type of talent plus you can play a true zone so it’s horror to have one person be able to create an offence for you. In Europe they pass better, they move the ball better, they set the screens better, the spacing is better. They have to relay upon being technically correct offensively in order to score. So for me to be able to come and try to pick up some of the spacing techniques, some of the ball movement techniques, some of the screening techniques, some of the motion techniques on offence I feel will help me to become better.

http://www.cskabasket.com/news/?a=inter ... 27&lang=en

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g98ZR90KuEE

Isn't flashy? Now Papaloukas ain't Jason Williams(I guess my other post hinted otherwise) but the point is you'll rarely see Jose make any of those types of passes. I've noticed him leaving his feet couple of times before making a pass which is dangerous because it can easily lead to a turnover.

And you are really underrating Jose here. He rarely makes mistakes running the team. You have to be very very efficient to run a team the way he does.

He usually knows where it's going before leaving his feet. He doesn't make decisions in mid air. He's just a very tall point guard, and when he takes a little jump he's able to pass over opponents when smaller point guards would have to find a way around the defender.

You just showed me a highlight tape with about 8-10 no look and behind the back passes combined. Covering a timespan of two to three seasons. Nothing special. He's a risk taker and a talented passer so obviously there will be highlights, but this really isn't anything extraordinarily flashy. He's no Ricky Rubio, whose flashiness is a big part of his being as a basketball player.

And I'm not underrating Jose, actually I agree with everything you wrote about him: He makes few mistakes, hits a high percentage of his shots. I only commented on his passing game. He's a solid passer, gets the ball into the right spots, but he usually isn't a risk-taker who breaks down the defense. That's what Papaloukas does, and you can't tell me they don't expect it from NBA point guards.

Anyway, it primarily depends on the teammates and which style of point guard play suits them better.

Not really. Rudy Fernandez, Andrei Kirilenko, Marco Belinelli, Andris Biedrins ... to name a few . Its generally the casual NBA fanbase that tend to make these stereotypes. However a lot of white European imports cannot be compared to above average NBA athletes. Its not stereotyping, its just how it is simply because of the physical talents that is available in the NBA. A more skilled player like Hedo Turkoglu is a lot less athletic then say a Hakim Warrick. But that doesn't necessarily make the import a worser player or make him a worser defender.

I'm not saying there aren't a handful exceptions, it would be strange if that weren't the case. Of course I don't know who's behind these forum posts, so-called "expert"-analysis' and so on, but this really is a way of thinking one is faced with very often. Especially the unathletic => weak defender conclusion.

Slow old Garbo wasn't a liability defensively because he had very high basketball IQ. He was a solid team defender and knew where to be on the court in terms of rotations, positions etc.

Correct. And Papaloukas' ball-IQ isn't too shabby either.