Ricky Rubio sucks

[salaner]

Concrete's mind matches his nickname. He has no clue about European basketball at all. Worse yet: he is unable to digest and process what he (presumably) saw at the Olympics.

[concrete]

1. Maybe because of USA squad is a little better than Street Ballers. Ricky Rubio wouldn't have even cracked the OLympic Select team (the college players selected to play against the Olympic team0.

2. Deron williams did a few street ball moves.

3. Ricky Rubio didn't do squat against the NBA players that you all feel he belongs on the same court with.

4. Every year there's some new hot Euro -NBA ready player that never pans out. Seriously, how many Euro PG's are actually doing well in the league outside Tony Parker. And Tony Parker is 2X quicker than Rubio, which got him by for a few years until he developed the rest of his game. Ricky Rubio is going to wash and i'm saving this thread to bring up later

[vincecarter4pres]

Lopez was a shooting guard.

I remember him quite well.

He was from a hispanic country originally(not European), but moved to the US way before highscool.

He played at St. John's, and was one of my favorite players.
He posted respectable #'s but never lived up to his hype.

I don't know that he never reached his potential, I just believe his potential was all hype because he absolutley dominated highschool ball, and was a hispanic immigrant headed to a supposed path of a NCAA and NBA star, which was and is still somewhat rare.
But yes, he was a super-bust, considering he was never really even good enough to be a 15-20 mpg solid rotation player.
Still not a good reference for your argument.

Neither is Jonathon Bender. He was an American straight to the pros highschool kid whose career was ultimately killed by his knee injuries.
Granted he wasn't an instant start just add water guy as advertised either, but he didn't label himself that.
If his knees didn't blow out maybe he would have developed into a nice player. Maybe not.

Lopez was a very low 1st round pick, again not helping your argument.

[concrete]

what do you mean? these are all kids the same age as Rubio when they were hyped to be some amazing talent that never panned out. That is the arguement. Unless you argue because Rubio is playing internationally for Spain that his talent level is leaps and bounds ahead of these guys?

[Alyosha12]

Not exactly on topic but Jennings is playing well in the friendly games Roma has played he may adapt to the euro system faster then some thought.

I read on Becirovice's( his teammate) that Jennings is trying really hard in practices that he is a good guy and not a cancer at all. But also that he has A LOT of problems with the tactics with positioning on defense with positioning against zone and such, all in all with the tactics of the game. However if anyone can teach him it is Repeša who is one of the best coaches in Europe IMO.

[concrete]

yeah i expect some problems from BJ in playing defense and learning positions iwth the trapezoid lane. That's one reason I hope college/highschool players don't go to Europe (when they have NBA potential) because it's such a different game and it hurts NBA development IMO>

[Alyosha12]

yeah i expect some problems from BJ in playing defense and learning positions iwth the trapezoid lane. That's one reason I hope college/highschool players don't go to Europe (when they have NBA potential) because it's such a different game and it hurts NBA development IMO>

How does learning more fundamentals and good D positioning hurt your NBA development?

[concrete]

if i really have to explain the progression of American hoops (highschool > college > nba) to you and contrast that with the fundamental differences in progression from the international game > nba then you shouldn't be even in this thread.

Matter of fact I already stated the core reasons (trapezoid lane, defensive positioning) these factors play into how where you stand on the court, where you start offensive sets (as a pg), where the cutting angles are, the length of the pass into the paint, how the zone is played, it's a different animal. Which is why NBA allstars have had difficulty adjusting to the rules the last 8 years.

[Undrafted Rook]

if i really have to explain the progression of American hoops (highschool > college > nba) to you and contrast that with the fundamental differences in progression from the international game > nba then you shouldn't be even in this thread.

Matter of fact I already stated the core reasons (trapezoid lane, defensive positioning) these factors play into how where you stand on the court, where you start offensive sets (as a pg), where the cutting angles are, the length of the pass into the paint, how the zone is played, it's a different animal. Which is why NBA allstars have had difficulty adjusting to the rules the last 8 years.

Trapezoid lane effects post play, a lot.
I don't see how it effects playing zone as there is no def. seconds, just like in high school or college. There are dozens of ways to play different zones out there, many coaches have their unic points of emphasis, maybe Jennings is struggling because he's a slow learner rather than because he is from the States?

I don't see how defensive positioning is different between Europe and U.S. How does the trapezoid key change the way guards play defense?

Could you elaborete and educate me concrete?

Jennings comes from high school, he has to adapt playing against men and learning a playbook much thicker than he's ever seen before. Could be he's never played zone before. It's those kind of things he needs to overcome, not some finer nuances about the european game.

Now about Rubio, he held his own against the best of the best, right? Yes, it's possible he has peaked and just stops developing, but why do you think it's so likely? Right now he has tools to be rotation player in the NBA, it's interesting to see how much he can add into his game. He is far from ready.

And whoever says Ricky isn't quick hasn't seen him play his gambling defense with Joventut.

[jman3134]

what do you mean? these are all kids the same age as Rubio when they were hyped to be some amazing talent that never panned out. That is the arguement. Unless you argue because Rubio is playing internationally for Spain that his talent level is leaps and bounds ahead of these guys?

The point is that the examples you are citing were not actually as highly touted as you believe. Leon Smith had so many personal troubles and this distracted him from actually enacting his potential. Furthermore, he was by no means the most highly touted player in America, and was not receiving anywhere near the amount of hype that Rubio is receiving. He barely made the first round, and it was shocking that he even made it at that spot.

Then you have a second round pick in Cisse. He was very physically developed for his age, but was never considered a sure-shot NBA star, nor was he considered in the top 5.

Bender was a solid rotation player/starter until a knee injury ended his career entirely. He had plenty of time left to enact his potential; however, his career was cut short. Not exactly the best comparison either.

Lopez is a prime example of a bust who never really lived up to the hype. However, he was not facing anywhere near the same competition as Rubio. He never played at the Olympic level of basketball, nor even at the Euroleague level of basketball. And, you cannot compare Euroleague to high school ball. Also, Lopez did not develop because he stayed in college too long, without really harnessing his vast potential. This was a major problem for him. Rubio has constantly raised the level of competition, while absolutely dominating players his age when he actually faces them head to head.

I cannot add much more than everyone has already said on Rubio. He does have a swagger that is reminiscent to Pistol Pete. His passing ability reminds me of what Pete used to do back in the day. However, Rubio is no where near the shooter that Pete was: he does have somewhat of a hitch in his shot which is in the process of being corrected, and he will probably never shoot such high volumes of shots. Rubio is more of an efficiency player, at least as it currently stands. He produces in limited minutes, very much unlike Pistol Pete, who was averaging 40 ppg with a huge amount of shot attempts.

[Undrafted Rook]

I find it funny how a one poster trolling results into some real observations rather than the usual ALLSTAR IN THREE YEARS!! -posts.

We need more trolls.

[jman3134]

Trapezoid lane effects post play, a lot.
I don't see how it effects playing zone as there is no def. seconds, just like in high school or college. There are dozens of ways to play different zones out there, many coaches have their unic points of emphasis, maybe Jennings is struggling because he's a slow learner rather than because he is from the States?

I don't see how defensive positioning is different between Europe and U.S. How does the trapezoid key change the way guards play defense?

Could you elaborete and educate me concrete?

Jennings comes from high school, he has to adapt playing against men and learning a playbook much thicker than he's ever seen before. Could be he's never played zone before. It's those kind of things he needs to overcome, not some finer nuances about the european game.

I could very well be wrong with this hypothesis, but I have always believed that the point guard position is a bit different at the European level. Besides the valid points that you already mentioned, I always felt that the point guard in European ball is primarily a ball handler and play initiator. While in America, the point guard is often a high volume scorer ala Chris Paul as well as a playmaker, in Europe he often initiates plays and is responsible for instituting the offense. This is why combo guards have been able to find roles in European basketball- namely because they can begin the offense and their teams can possibly fall back on adept passing forwards capable of making heads up plays. With such a young guy in that position, it is no wonder why he would struggle. European point guards rarely dominate the ball as a Derrick Rose or other NBA talents do at the college level. Instead, they rely on pass oriented ball movement geared towards finding an open shooter in motion. This is why Theo, and to a lesser extent Pepe Sanchez are/were coveted at the European level, whereas high volume shooters like Troy Bell struggled because they were accustomed to scoring at the 1. And, correct me if I'm wrong: isn't Jennings's most valuable asset his quickness and high volume shooting? If he is not going to be allowed to penetrate as much (with the Trapezoidal lane and thereby big men extended at times from the block and with the general style of the game being as it is), he is not going to be showcasing his assets. With that said, Jennings is going to be relied upon a lot this year.

[Undrafted Rook]

I could very well be wrong with this hypothesis, but I have always believed that the point guard position is a bit different at the European level. Besides the valid points that you already mentioned, I always felt that the point guard in European ball is primarily a ball handler and play initiator. While in America, the point guard is often a high volume scorer ala Chris Paul as well as a playmaker, in Europe he often initiates plays and is responsible for instituting the offense. This is why combo guards have been able to find roles in European basketball- namely because they can begin the offense and their teams can possibly fall back on adept passing forwards capable of making heads up plays. With such a young guy in that position, it is no wonder why he would struggle. European point guards rarely dominate the ball as a Derrick Rose or other NBA talents do at the college level. Instead, they rely on pass oriented ball movement geared towards finding an open shooter in motion. This is why Theo, and to a lesser extent Pepe Sanchez are/were coveted at the European level, whereas high volume shooters like Troy Bell struggled because they were accustomed to scoring at the 1. And, correct me if I'm wrong: isn't Jennings's most valuable asset his quickness and high volume shooting? If he is not going to be allowed to penetrate as much (with the Trapezoidal lane and thereby big men extended at times from the block and with the general style of the game being as it is), he is not going to be showcasing his assets. With that said, Jennings is going to be relied upon a lot this year.

About the point guard role, I think three rule differences are critical here. Shorter 3point-line means less ground to cover on rotations, it allows defenders sink a little bit deeper in to the lane. No defensive three seconds, if your center doesn't have range defense has a safety under the basket. Rougher defense in the perimeter, especially in screen situations limits the offensive player. A good defensive team can make the court very packed, taking away the simple pick&roll and 1on1 plays. And these are the plays where a classic american PG excels. I also feel that the refs here are currently in love with the offensive foul call, making drives into traffic even more turnover prone.

Rules are essentially same in college, and small guards certainly rule NCAA play. I'm going to be bold and say that level of play is that much lower in college, hence the difference.

That being said there are plenty of teams attacking with "simple" plays and relying on guard penetration. I think Siena with Terrel McIntyre is a good example, and Hollis Price in Lietuvos Rytas. And as you look at the lesser national leagues in Europe it's very common to see a player who once was the star guard in a small college lead a team in scoring, assists, steals, to's, and minutes played. I would say this backs up my college remark from above.

Many of these "SG's in a PG's body" combo guards do well in european leagues, some as PG's in teams with Point forwards or a passing center, some as SG's, the height requirement for a NBA SG (6-4ish I'd say) doesn't really apply in here.

Looking at this through stats, couple of things to remember. Many euro coaches still like limit player minutes, and usually point guards especially don't log big minutes, as traditionally backup PG is the teams sixth man, "Ford/Calderon -situation" is still very common in here. Lack of minutes may make the statline look less impressive. Also the difference in what counts as an assist, Euroleague regular season assist record last year was 4.93 (DeJuan Collins). So 15/3.5 may not look like much for a fan used to NBA-stats but it's very very solid for an euroleague PG.

As for Jennings, I really can't say that much about him yet, He's going to play for sure. Repesa gave Ukic freedoms on the court, can't say I expect Jennings to receive same kind of treatment. I'd think he'll play some SG on offense also, with Jaaber or Giachetti manning the point. That could be an opportunity for him to attack the lane when the defense is already out of balance. He is bound to struggle at some point but I expect him to come out as better player in the end. Instead of having a college program cater into his strenghts for a year or two he's going to have to find a place in a pro team, and excelling in that situation is certainly more impressive than in college, atleast in my eyes.

Lottomatica Roma at DKV Joventut on Dec. 11
Brandon Jennings vs. Ricky Rubio
Jennings vs. Rubio

[JustMagic]

I guess you didn't hear, but Rubio is injured and will miss 6-8 weeks (wrist injury). So He'll miss both games VS Rome.

Ohh, and Jennings already played one game for Rome in the Italian league. He got the minutes and the chance from Repesa, and wasn't that impressive (something like 7 pts in 20+ min with some TO), although it's only his 1st game and it'll take time for him to adjust.

[Kohanz]

How the OP can compare Rubio to all-time greats like Stockton and Price is ridiculous? There is no way you saw what those players looked like at age 17. Nobody had even heard of them at that time? Hitch in the jumpshot? There is plenty of time to fix that - heck, many players don't fix their jumpshot until they arrive at the NBA level...

I'm not saying Rubio will be great. I'm saying that it's way too early to tell - he's very young. The OP is basically coming off as a troll...

[concrete]

actually BrJennings first game was 9 points, 2 rebounds, 0 assists and 1 Turnover. And his 3's were key baskets. Youtube has his scrimmages up and he's looked impressive, so we'll see how he plays in his next games.

Kohanz...have you ever heard of College Basketball? Price played at Gtech and Stockton and Gonzaga, to say no one heard of them is ridiculous. Especially Price, who was a freaking beast his freshman year at the age of 18. You can call my troll because you disagree with my points that's fine, just shows you cannot formulate a sensible rebuttal other than ad hominem attacks.


Jman - Troy Bell was not truely a 1. Yes, I believe he did play that in College at Boston College; however, he was clearly a SG trapped in a PG body. Ryan Syndey avg just about if not more Assists Per Game than Bell did if I recall. That is why Bell is not in the NBA , amazing athelete poor FLOOR GENERAL and no advanced passing skills or court vision.


Undrafted Rookie - I agree with your post about the contrast/comparision between College and International Ball. How far is the difference in talent or skill level is debateable. As you said, many times players from Small Colleges can go to the Euroleagues and dominate the stats on a team. Many times these players wouldn't be the 3rd or 4th option on top 25 teams in major conferences (ACC, SEC, Big 10, 12, East, etc)

[Undrafted Rook]

actually BrJennings first game was 9 points, 2 rebounds, 0 assists and 1 Turnover. And his 3's were key baskets. Youtube has his scrimmages up and he's looked impressive, so we'll see how he plays in his next games.

Those stats are from his first Euroleague game, he went 3/7 from three and played 22 minutes, he played allright, nothing spectacular but certainly looked like he belonged. He wasn't used as a playmaker that much Becirovic played point and Roma went inside for Brezec also. IMO He wasn't really struggling on defense, unlike the press before season would have indicated.

In Italian League he's averaging 3.7 points and 2 assists in 17 minutes.

Looked like he found a good team with a good coach, Roma isn't really going anywhere in Euroleague this year but a quality team can win even with him struggling in the domestic league.

What if a team throws some money at him, he stays until he's 24 and doesn't sign up for the draft. Does it mean he can sign with any team and beat the rookie pay scale?

Undrafted Rookie - I agree with your post about the contrast/comparision between College and International Ball. How far is the difference in talent or skill level is debateable. As you said, many times players from Small Colleges can go to the Euroleagues and dominate the stats on a team. Many times these players wouldn't be the 3rd or 4th option on top 25 teams in major conferences (ACC, SEC, Big 10, 12, East, etc)

Ok now, I don't know if you made that on purpose or not but saying "go to the Euroleagues and dominate the stats" is misleading. So a short introduction to different european leagues.

Euroleague and ULEB cup are the top international competitions, teams that play against NBA teams play in these competitions. And there's nothing debateable about the skill level compared to college, these teams are way closer to NBA teams than college teams. American players in these leagues usually have NBA experience, some come to these teams after playing in the smaller teams and leagues and proving their worth that way. No small college star dominates here, once prominent college stars play here (my previous post about small guards).

1st tier national leagues, (ACB Spain), A1 League (Greece), Super League (Russia), Serie A (Italy), Adriatic League (former Yugoslavia).

2nd tier national leagues, LNB (France), Bundesliga (German), LKL (Lithuania), TBL (Turkey), Ligat HaAl (Israel)

Lots of overlap between 1st and 2nd tier. Some teams are Euroleague or ULEB teams or at the same level, some are bit less. The level of american players also varies, just as there are very good ones playing in the top teams there are some less than spectacular. For example Lithuanian league allows five foreign (american) players, and some of these five are just role players filling up the roster.

3rd tier, Well everything else, national leagues for the smaller countries and second divisions for the bigger ones, still a huge disparity between this group but breaking it down more doesn't seem necessary, point is here's where you find your former small college star dominating.

[JustMagic]

What if a team throws some money at him, he stays until he's 24 and doesn't sign up for the draft. Does it mean he can sign with any team and beat the rookie pay scale?

It doesn't work that way. The year he becomes 22 he'll be automatically "signed up" for the draft, likes it or not. THE DRAFT IS FOR THE TEAMS, NOT FOR THE PLAYERS.

Undrafted Rookie - I agree with your post about the contrast/comparision between College and International Ball. How far is the difference in talent or skill level is debateable. As you said, many times players from Small Colleges can go to the Euroleagues and dominate the stats on a team. Many times these players wouldn't be the 3rd or 4th option on top 25 teams in major conferences (ACC, SEC, Big 10, 12, East, etc)

As the Rook previously explained there is only ONE Euroleague and plenty of different european domestic leagues.
A player like you described, that wasn't even a 3rd or 4th option in a medicore college team dominates only in some 2nd-3rd tier european league like maybe the German league, England, Austria, Holland etc. Or 2nd division in stronger basketball counries such as the LEB in spain or the 2nd div in Italy.
All, or atleast most, American players that play in the Euroleague itself are former NCAA stars or former NBA players. You are welcome to check the rosters yourself:
http://www.euroleague.net/competition/teams

[NetsForce]

yeah i expect some problems from BJ in playing defense and learning positions iwth the trapezoid lane. That's one reason I hope college/highschool players don't go to Europe (when they have NBA potential) because it's such a different game and it hurts NBA development IMO>

How does learning more fundamentals and good D positioning hurt your NBA development?

Don't you mean less fundamentals and worse position defense? They majority of players in Europe still play defense with their hands...

[concrete]

Jennings is already measuring up to Europe's best. Says Serb Filip Covic, who has also faced 18-year-old Spanish sensation Ricky Rubio: "Ricky's a great player, but Brandon is better."


http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story ... id=3715746