Top 5 Euro-International Players (All-Time)

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Re: Top 5 Euro-International Players (All-Time) 

Post#101 » by Spalato » Mon Sep 1, 2014 9:17 am

VUK1 wrote:I think after these three there are genuine arguments for and against a number of players, and as I've said, Bodiroga's metal tally puts him well and truly in the discussion.


Jasikevicius's accomplishments would have also been super impressive if he didn't go to the NBA, but since he did, he was exposed as nothing more than an average player. Now no-one talks about him, and rightfully so.

All the great euro talents who made in their name in 90s and 00s eventually went to the NBA to prove their worth, except for Bodiroga. He's the odd man out - he backed out of the fight, hence why I don't understand the logic of putting him alongside other euro greats.

1992 onwards, a player's ultimate worth is based on his success in the NBA. Gold, silver, bronze medals were OK (but not good) measure before the 90s, but now they are worthless when discussing the best players in the world. Why? Because, unlike soccer, the best basketball players in the world are not 100% committed to play for their national team. Just about every team in every international competition have a few of their best players missing. Whereas in the NBA, the best are always playing.
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Re: Top 5 Euro-International Players (All-Time) 

Post#102 » by Genjuro » Mon Sep 1, 2014 6:58 pm

Spalato wrote:1992 onwards, a player's ultimate worth is based on his success in the NBA.

Really? So you would rank Drobnjak ahead of Jasikevicius?

I understand your point, but the NBA and FIBA are different brands of basketball. Talent doesn't translate equally from one world to the other, so I wouldn't agree with such a NBA-centric vision, even if nowadays it's obvious that most of the best international players are playing there, so we can really compare them easier. I wouldn't find coherent to put value on FIBA championships only for players up to a certain time. And I'm particularly referring to NT tournaments, where you can see the NBA guys interacting with those playing in Europe (or somewhere else), because the current Euroleague is really watered down, and winning the title or the MVP doesn't mean that much anymore.

VUK1 wrote: FWIW I have a Serbian background and my top 3 is as follows:

1. & 2. Drazen & Nowitzki - i cant separate these guys.
3. Sabonis

I think after these three there are genuine arguments for and against a number of players, and as I've said, Bodiroga's metal tally puts him well and truly in the discussion.

Bodiroga in the same discussion with Pau Gasol? I want some of the stuff you're smoking.
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Re: Top 5 Euro-International Players (All-Time) 

Post#103 » by Spalato » Tue Sep 2, 2014 2:19 am

Genjuro wrote:
Spalato wrote:1992 onwards, a player's ultimate worth is based on his success in the NBA.

Really? So you would rank Drobnjak ahead of Jasikevicius?


No, they were both ordinary players. But the fact that hardly anyone mentions Jasikevicius anymore despite having an outrageously impressive non-NBA resume tells me that your time in the NBA will make or break your legacy. It is the ultimate measure, because all the top-shelf talent play there.

Now, the doors were wide open for Bodiroga to make the switch, but he backed down. That doesn't sound like a 'great' to me.

Make no mistake, Dirk, the Gasol brothers, Petrovic, Stojakovic, Parker, Divac, Kirilenko, Kukoc, Radja, Marciulionis, Sabonis, Schrempf etc in no particular order are light years ahead of the rest. They could have succeeded anywhere, that's how good they were (are).

But what's crazy is that Bodiroga built his career at the same time and even after the above mentioned players, yet this player who backed down from the challenge of playing in the NBA is, by some, considered to be greater than those who more than held their own game-in and game-out against the best players in the world year after year. Ahead of players who got all-NBA team awards, won NBA championships, who were NBA all-stars etc. That is insane.

Again, Bodiroga didn't play in the 70s and 80s, he played in the 90s and 00s, where, if were you were truly great, you HAD to play in the NBA. It was expected, because there were no more obstacles. Yet he chickened out.
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Re: Top 5 Euro-International Players (All-Time) 

Post#104 » by Genjuro » Tue Sep 2, 2014 2:34 pm

Spalato wrote:No, they were both ordinary players. But the fact that hardly anyone mentions Jasikevicius anymore despite having an outrageously impressive non-NBA resume tells me that your time in the NBA will make or break your legacy. It is the ultimate measure, because all the top-shelf talent play there.

Now, the doors were wide open for Bodiroga to make the switch, but he backed down. That doesn't sound like a 'great' to me.

Make no mistake, Dirk, the Gasol brothers, Petrovic, Stojakovic, Parker, Divac, Kirilenko, Kukoc, Radja, Marciulionis, Sabonis, Schrempf etc in no particular order are light years ahead of the rest. They could have succeeded anywhere, that's how good they were (are).

But what's crazy is that Bodiroga built his career at the same time and even after the above mentioned players, yet this player who backed down from the challenge of playing in the NBA is, by some, considered to be greater than those who more than held their own game-in and game-out against the best players in the world year after year. Ahead of players who got all-NBA team awards, won NBA championships, who were NBA all-stars etc. That is insane.

Again, Bodiroga didn't play in the 70s and 80s, he played in the 90s and 00s, where, if were you were truly great, you HAD to play in the NBA. It was expected, because there were no more obstacles. Yet he chickened out.

Yes and no.

I do agree about Bodiroga being overrated, and I also think the guys in that list are above everybody else, even if we could argue about Cosic, or include Danilovic, who proved his worth in the NBA and was dominant in Europe in the 90s, or somebody else.

But I would never put Drobnjak in the same sentence with Jasikevicius (or Bodiroga). Of course everybody has his own criteria, but you have the FIBA NT game where top international players go against each other in a different (yet competitive) brand of basketball, and to me that still counts to some degree. And regardless, both played in Europe at the same time, and one of them was a legend, and the other just another serviceable big dude.
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Re: Top 5 Euro-International Players (All-Time) 

Post#105 » by Gordon » Sat Sep 6, 2014 1:35 pm

Personally i think Dirk is undisputed number one. He was the only one who was both NBA regular season MVP and NBA finals MVP. That`s Mount Rushmore of basketball. Not to mention his heroics with overmatched German national team, longtivety and loyality to Mavericks.

I would put Sabonis, Pau, Parker and Drazen in the next tier.
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Re: Top 5 Euro-International Players (All-Time) 

Post#106 » by VUK1 » Tue Sep 9, 2014 5:05 am

VUK1 wrote: FWIW I have a Serbian background and my top 3 is as follows:

1. & 2. Drazen & Nowitzki - i cant separate these guys.
3. Sabonis

I think after these three there are genuine arguments for and against a number of players, and as I've said, Bodiroga's metal tally puts him well and truly in the discussion.

Bodiroga in the same discussion with Pau Gasol? I want some of the stuff you're smoking.[/quote]

I'm not saying Bodiroga is better than Gasol or anyone else for that matter. I'm just saying that he's a candidate.
As I said listed - there are three definites, and then an argument to fill out the top 5. How any fan fills out the top 5 is a matter of opinion. Using the NBA as a criteria, one would argue that Stojakovic is better than Bodiroga - which is plain wrong. So I don't quite agree with the arbitrary "Post 92 you need to be in the NBA to be in the discussion". (Yeah i wouldve liked to see him go across and i personally think he would've been very successful - but the man had his reasons for staying in Europe).
He played an absolutely crucial part in winning two world championships, three european championships, Olympic silver, final fours etc etc.

in all likelihood he's top 10 but there is a case to argue is all im saying.
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Re: Top 5 Euro-International Players (All-Time) 

Post#107 » by Genjuro » Tue Sep 9, 2014 7:41 am

VUK1 wrote:
Genjuro wrote:
VUK1 wrote: FWIW I have a Serbian background and my top 3 is as follows:

1. & 2. Drazen & Nowitzki - i cant separate these guys.
3. Sabonis

I think after these three there are genuine arguments for and against a number of players, and as I've said, Bodiroga's metal tally puts him well and truly in the discussion.

Bodiroga in the same discussion with Pau Gasol? I want some of the stuff you're smoking.


I'm not saying Bodiroga is better than Gasol or anyone else for that matter. I'm just saying that he's a candidate.
As I said listed - there are three definites, and then an argument to fill out the top 5. How any fan fills out the top 5 is a matter of opinion. Using the NBA as a criteria, one would argue that Stojakovic is better than Bodiroga - which is plain wrong. So I don't quite agree with the arbitrary "Post 92 you need to be in the NBA to be in the discussion". (Yeah i wouldve liked to see him go across and i personally think he would've been very successful - but the man had his reasons for staying in Europe).
He played an absolutely crucial part in winning two world championships, three european championships, Olympic silver, final fours etc etc.

in all likelihood he's top 10 but there is a case to argue is all im saying.

So you're saying it's a matter of opinion wether Gasol is better than Bodiroga or not, isn't it? He's a candidate just as Gasol is, isn't he? You could fill that top-5 with Gasol or Bodiroga, depending on your taste...

Again, I would really enjoy some of the stuff you're smoking.

As for the Stojakovic-Bodiroga debate, even if not as egregious as with Gasol, I think Peja is clearly ahead. There isn't only the NBA career, but Peja was the cornerstone player of the best post-96 Serbian NT (2001), clearly ahead of prime Bodiroga already at 24, and IMO he was better as well in 2002, although Dejan emerged as the clutch hero. Of course Stojakovic couldn't win any Euroleague title playing in the NBA, and his NT career wasn't nearly as successful given the talent drop, all the chemistry stuff they suffered, and that he quit after 2003.
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Re: Top 5 Euro-International Players (All-Time) 

Post#108 » by VUK1 » Tue Sep 9, 2014 11:00 pm

Genjuro wrote:
VUK1 wrote:
Genjuro wrote:Bodiroga in the same discussion with Pau Gasol? I want some of the stuff you're smoking.


I'm not saying Bodiroga is better than Gasol or anyone else for that matter. I'm just saying that he's a candidate.
As I said listed - there are three definites, and then an argument to fill out the top 5. How any fan fills out the top 5 is a matter of opinion. Using the NBA as a criteria, one would argue that Stojakovic is better than Bodiroga - which is plain wrong. So I don't quite agree with the arbitrary "Post 92 you need to be in the NBA to be in the discussion". (Yeah i wouldve liked to see him go across and i personally think he would've been very successful - but the man had his reasons for staying in Europe).
He played an absolutely crucial part in winning two world championships, three european championships, Olympic silver, final fours etc etc.

in all likelihood he's top 10 but there is a case to argue is all im saying.

So you're saying it's a matter of opinion wether Gasol is better than Bodiroga or not, isn't it? He's a candidate just as Gasol is, isn't he? You could fill that top-5 with Gasol or Bodiroga, depending on your taste...

Again, I would really enjoy some of the stuff you're smoking.

As for the Stojakovic-Bodiroga debate, even if not as egregious as with Gasol, I think Peja is clearly ahead. There isn't only the NBA career, but Peja was the cornerstone player of the best post-96 Serbian NT (2001), clearly ahead of prime Bodiroga already at 24, and IMO he was better as well in 2002, although Dejan emerged as the clutch hero. Of course Stojakovic couldn't win any Euroleague title playing in the NBA, and his NT career wasn't nearly as successful given the talent drop, all the chemistry stuff they suffered, and that he quit after 2003.



Where do you see me comparing Gasol and Bodiroga? I said in all likelihood Bodiroga is a candidate for top 10 not top 5 - however a case could be mounted. I think Gasol is either 4 or 5 for the record.

Completely disagree on Stojakovic being > Bodiroga.
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Re: Top 5 Euro-International Players (All-Time) 

Post#109 » by Genjuro » Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:53 am

VUK1 wrote:Where do you see me comparing Gasol and Bodiroga? I said in all likelihood Bodiroga is a candidate for top 10 not top 5 - however a case could be mounted. I think Gasol is either 4 or 5 for the record.


You just implied that Bodiroga is a candidate for the top-5 and Gasol is not on your three-player short list of definites:

VUK1 wrote:I'm not saying Bodiroga is better than Gasol or anyone else for that matter. I'm just saying that he's a candidate.
As I said listed - there are three definites, and then an argument to fill out the top 5. How any fan fills out the top 5 is a matter of opinion.


How should I understand that? You tell me. I just did the math.

VUK1 wrote:Completely disagree on Stojakovic being > Bodiroga.


Based on? Stojakovic was a NBA all-star, and a dominant performer in FIBA ball (even if for a short time in the NT). Bodiroga is a dominant FIBA performer when the best European players were already in the NBA. Even his biggest achievement as the clear-cut go-to player was a NBA-less World Championship in 1998.
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Re: Top 5 Euro-International Players (All-Time) 

Post#110 » by BIGMatta23 » Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:24 am

Im surprised not one person here as mentioned Andrew Gaze... briefly,
Rookie of the Year, 7 time MVP, 14 time scoring champ, 5 time Olympian (scoring record holder in Olympics and 2nd in World Championships), played one season of NCAA and took Seton Hall to the Final against Michigan, Scored 18,908 points in the NBL over 612 games in a 22-season span at an average of 30.9 points per game, 2 NBL Championships, FIBA 50 Greatest of All Time, NBA Championship with the Spurs 1999.
I can safely say that his NBL and Boomer records will NEVER be broken.
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Re: Top 5 Euro-International Players (All-Time) 

Post#111 » by Damon_3388 » Mon Jan 12, 2015 9:04 am

element wrote:There is one name that gets normally forgotten in these kind of lists, and it's Tim Duncan. The Virgin Islands are not formally part of the US territory, so we can consider Tim "international", and it's the best "international" 4 IMO.

So my 5 is

Steve Nash
Drazen Petrovic
DIrk Nowitzki
Tim Duncan
Arvydas Sabonis


Duncan is from the United States Virgin Islands, an organised, unincorperated US territory. "Star Spangled Banner" is their national anthem, and US dollars are the currency. Residents of the territory are US citizens. Duncan is not an "international" player.
It's such a fine line between stupid and clever.
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Re: Top 5 Euro-International Players (All-Time) 

Post#112 » by LuDux1 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:18 pm

Image
Guess the player while I calculate points he scored for USSR NT
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Re: Top 5 Euro-International Players (All-Time) 

Post#113 » by THE J0KER » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:41 pm

1:
Nowitzki

2:
P.Gasol, Sabonis

3:
Parker, Stojakovic, Kukoc

4:
Divac, Petrovic, Kirilenko, M.Gasol

5:
Bodiroga, Galis, Marciulionis, Dragic, Ibaka

6:
Gallinari, Danilovic, Teodosic, Diamantidis, Ilgauskas, Okur

POTENTIAL FUTURE EURO TOP10:
Antetokounmpo, Jokic, Gobert, Porzingis, Doncic


NOTE:
I'm obviously ignoring all European players before the second half of 80's (Belov, Meneghin, Dalipagic, Kicanovic, Cosic... etc) because there is no way to compare them objectively with worlds best players of their era (from NBA). Also, players from US Colleges which join NBA right after (D.Schrempf, R.Smits, J.Noah, N.Vucevic...) I didn't count because they are more product of American basketball.
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Re: Top 5 Euro-International Players (All-Time) 

Post#114 » by maRioGrande » Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:58 am

The most underrated player here is Toni Kukoc.

Three times in a row Euroleague champion with Jugoplastika Split, winning 2 EL final four MVP awards, first player who played for non-winning team (Benneton) to become Euroleague FF MVP, Eurobasket 1991 MVP and gold medalist, 1990 WC MVP and gold medalist. All of that while playing guard in Europe.

He became an important piece of arguably the best NBA team ever, winning three rings with Bulls and becoming NBA sixth man of the year. While playing PF most of the time.

I could write novels about Toni's magnificent talent, especially while he was thin, European Toni, 6'10'' guy breaking ankles on the court. He once stated that he likes to assist more than score because assist makes two guys happy. That's how he played basketball, making everyone around him happy or should I say better.
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Re: Top 5 Euro-International Players (All-Time) 

Post#115 » by remi_222 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:35 pm

Tony Parker's career for now :

4× NBA champion (2003, 2005, 2007, 2014)
1x European Champion (2013)
NBA Finals MVP (2007)
6× NBA All-Star (2006, 2007, 2009, 2012–2014)
3× All-NBA Second Team (2012–2014)
All-NBA Third Team (2009)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2002)
FIBA EuroBasket MVP (2013)
2× FIBA EuroBasket Top Scorer (2011, 2013)
2× FIBA Europe Player of the Year (2013, 2014)
2× Euroscar Award (2007, 2013)
All time scoring leader in Euro championship
All time assist leader for the Spurs, #22 all time with 6650 assist in front of any European player
#64 all time scorer with 19000 points, #3 foreign player behind Dirk and Pau.
#2 foreign player with game played (1143) behind Dirk
#5 all time for playoff game played with 221 games

Who else as a foreigner matches his stats ?? Surprised he's not higher in your standings

L.E.G.E.N.D
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Re: Top 5 Euro-International Players (All-Time) 

Post#116 » by LuDux1 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:49 pm

LuDux1 wrote:Image
Guess the player while I calculate points he scored for USSR NT


Image
20-year-old Modestas Paulauskas made SU NT debut in 1965 EC and was team's top-scorer. He repeated same feat in 6 next final competitions (6 EC, 2 WC and 1968 Olympic games). In last 3 competitions he was 3rd or 2nd. In those 10 years SU NT won 4 out of 5 ECs, 2/3 WCs and 1/2 OGs (yes, that one). Already after 1965 EC there was interest from NBA

On the other hand Zalgiris in his era wasn't strong enough to win invitation to European club competitions and he declined invitation to play for CSKA Moscow, which at the time constantly played in "Euroleague" finals. He also retired early. Still, in the light of above I proclaim him the MVP of FIBA basketball 1965-1974.

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