RealGM

brassviews wrote:Giniboli is of Italian descent as are most Argentines.

Manu and other argentinians plays for Argentina NT NOT Italian, nuff said..

brassviews wrote:Giniboli is of Italian descent as are most Argentines.

As well as most US citizens are of European descent, does that mean they're European? No

gadiegolo wrote:

brassviews wrote:Giniboli is of Italian descent as are most Argentines.

As well as most US citizens are of European descent, does that mean they're European? No

No, they are not European because they are USA citizens. Ginobili holds duel citizenship in both Argentina and Italy. He also started his career in Italy, where he won the euroleague final four mvp and the euroleague championship.

However that is not what I included him on the list.

The reason Nash, Olajuwon, Ewing and TD are not considered international on these lists is because they played college ball here in the US.

IMO it seemed as if the OP was asking about stars over in Europe. People who played in Europe. Either in the Euroleague or in international competition. Ginobili was a star in Europe before he came to the US.

Ginobili highlights from playing with Italian team Virtus Kinder Bologna. Some nasty dunks in there.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HV0b2Mi12M[/youtube]

jinxed wrote:

gadiegolo wrote:

brassviews wrote:Giniboli is of Italian descent as are most Argentines.

As well as most US citizens are of European descent, does that mean they're European? No

No, they are not European because they are USA citizens. Ginobili holds duel citizenship in both Argentina and Italy. He also started his career in Italy, where he won the euroleague final four mvp and the euroleague championship.

However that is not what I included him on the list.

The reason Nash, Olajuwon, Ewing and TD are not considered international on these lists is because they played college ball here in the US.

IMO it seemed as if the OP was asking about stars over in Europe. People who played in Europe. Either in the Euroleague or in international competition. Ginobili was a star in Europe before he came to the US.

Yeah, you're right about the international/European but then the main difference I'd make would be separating players between those that went through the US basketball training system and those who were trained outside of the US, FIBA system (despite playing in the NBA afterwards).

Ginobili holding the Italian passport is just one example of something that is a very common practice in Europe due to limits in the number of foreign players that a team can have in national leagues. Plenty of Argentinian player get Italian or Spanish passports through their agents to facilitate their entrance into the European leagues and increase their market value at the same time. I'm sure that if the Argentinian league were the one attracting players from Europe (e.g.) a lot of Italian players wouldn't have a lot problems getting Argentinian passports to play there, not meaning that they were less Italian than before.

Note: and Ginobili played some years in Italy (very successful ones) but he came out of the Argentinian basketball scheme.

^Fair enough.

1. Dirk

2. Sabonis

3. Ginobili

4. Pau

Hesitant to not put Sabonis at top, but his short and late NBA career unfortunately puts him at a disadvantage to Dirk's accolades. Despite that and Dirk's NBA success, no doubt in my mind Sabonis was the better player. Basically a 7'3 version of Larry Bird; more post moves than 3P shots. His huge skill-set puts him on par with the best NBA centers of his time IMO.

5. Kukoc / Petrovic - I share the opinion that there's a big gap between these 2 and the guys above. Great player and 6-chip contributor he was, Kukoc by no means could ever handle being a 1st option, unlike the top guys. Petrovic could score with the best of them, but never got a chance to develop his defense.

MrSparkle wrote:1. Dirk

2. Sabonis

3. Ginobili

4. Pau

Hesitant to not put Sabonis at top, but his short and late NBA career unfortunately puts him at a disadvantage to Dirk's accolades. Despite that and Dirk's NBA success, no doubt in my mind Sabonis was the better player. Basically a 7'3 version of Larry Bird; more post moves than 3P shots. His huge skill-set puts him on par with the best NBA centers of his time IMO.

5. Kukoc / Petrovic - I share the opinion that there's a big gap between these 2 and the guys above. Great player and 6-chip contributor he was, Kukoc by no means could ever handle being a 1st option, unlike the top guys. Petrovic could score with the best of them, but never got a chance to develop his defense.

My problem with Sabonis is that it's bloody difficult to differentiate between what he could have been and what he actually was. Arvydas was and always will be that unbelievably talented half-myth/half-player that played behind the iron curtain in those USSR obscure years and overplayed those young American players (e.g. David Robinson) in a fashion no one ever did before.
I also remember how difficult was for him to run up and down the court when playing for Real Madrid but his teammates had no other choice but to wait for him cause despite his physical drawbacks at the time, he was able to think ahead of anybody else on the court, making him unstoppable once he occupied the post. being 4 inches taller than almost anybody he played against in Europe also helped. In fact, Muresan, as technically unpolished as he was, was the only player that really slowed Sabonis down in Europe because he was basically taller than him (which is no small feat when talking about Sabas).
In that list, I would put Pau ahead of Manu but I guess that's a tight race so I won't complain much about that one.

gadiegolo wrote:My problem with Sabonis is that it's bloody difficult to differentiate between what he could have been and what he actually was. Arvydas was and always will be that unbelievably talented half-myth/half-player that played behind the iron curtain in those USSR obscure years and overplayed those young American players (e.g. David Robinson) in a fashion no one ever did before.
I also remember how difficult was for him to run up and down the court when playing for Real Madrid but his teammates had no other choice but to wait for him cause despite his physical drawbacks at the time, he was able to think ahead of anybody else on the court, making him unstoppable once he occupied the post. being 4 inches taller than almost anybody he played against in Europe also helped. In fact, Muresan, as technically unpolished as he was, was the only player that really slowed Sabonis down in Europe because he was basically taller than him (which is no small feat when talking about Sabas).
In that list, I would put Pau ahead of Manu but I guess that's a tight race so I won't complain much about that one.

I hear ya. It's a tough call. Anyway while we're at it let's enjoy some short clips:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZSuksGM ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZizsAdutYo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KFjmOHT ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrLxl0NxZGU

I'll also add... Scola should actually be mentioned in 5th with Kukoc and Petrovic. He's had a quieter NBA career, and for a while was in Ginobili's shadow, but if he wasn't spending his time on a rebuilding Rockets team, and was playing with a superstar (Kobe, Rose, Duncan/Spurs, etc.), I'm sure he'd be 2nd/3rd option on a contender. He's got the complete skill-set, effort and has been injury free. It's a hypothetical stretch, but I can see Scola still helping Lakers win 2 rings if he replaces Pau, given there'd also be Odom and Bynum.

MrSparkle wrote:

gadiegolo wrote:My problem with Sabonis is that it's bloody difficult to differentiate between what he could have been and what he actually was. Arvydas was and always will be that unbelievably talented half-myth/half-player that played behind the iron curtain in those USSR obscure years and overplayed those young American players (e.g. David Robinson) in a fashion no one ever did before.
I also remember how difficult was for him to run up and down the court when playing for Real Madrid but his teammates had no other choice but to wait for him cause despite his physical drawbacks at the time, he was able to think ahead of anybody else on the court, making him unstoppable once he occupied the post. being 4 inches taller than almost anybody he played against in Europe also helped. In fact, Muresan, as technically unpolished as he was, was the only player that really slowed Sabonis down in Europe because he was basically taller than him (which is no small feat when talking about Sabas).
In that list, I would put Pau ahead of Manu but I guess that's a tight race so I won't complain much about that one.

I hear ya. It's a tough call. Anyway while we're at it let's enjoy some short clips:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZSuksGM ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZizsAdutYo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KFjmOHT ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrLxl0NxZGU

I'll also add... Scola should actually be mentioned in 5th with Kukoc and Petrovic. He's had a quieter NBA career, and for a while was in Ginobili's shadow, but if he wasn't spending his time on a rebuilding Rockets team, and was playing with a superstar (Kobe, Rose, Duncan/Spurs, etc.), I'm sure he'd be 2nd/3rd option on a contender. He's got the complete skill-set, effort and has been injury free. It's a hypothetical stretch, but I can see Scola still helping Lakers win 2 rings if he replaces Pau, given there'd also be Odom and Bynum.

Do you really think that a frontcourt fo Scola at C and Odom at PF could give LA 2 rings? I honestly doubt it very much.
I'm a big Scola fan but I think that Pau and him are just on different leagues.

gadiegolo wrote:My problem with Sabonis is that it's bloody difficult to differentiate between what he could have been and what he actually was. Arvydas was and always will be that unbelievably talented half-myth/half-player that played behind the iron curtain in those USSR obscure years and overplayed those young American players (e.g. David Robinson) in a fashion no one ever did before.

You are saying this as if Robinson was a kid and Sabonis was 5 years older fully matured man. In fact Arvydas Romas Sabonis (born December 19 1964) and David Maurice Robinson (born August 6, 1965). DAAAYUM! Aniways, the fact Robinson looked like a kid was because he was domianted by Sabonis.

RPzB wrote:

gadiegolo wrote:My problem with Sabonis is that it's bloody difficult to differentiate between what he could have been and what he actually was. Arvydas was and always will be that unbelievably talented half-myth/half-player that played behind the iron curtain in those USSR obscure years and overplayed those young American players (e.g. David Robinson) in a fashion no one ever did before.

You are saying this as if Robinson was a kid and Sabonis was 5 years older fully matured man. In fact Arvydas Romas Sabonis (born December 19 1964) and David Maurice Robinson (born August 6, 1965). DAAAYUM! Aniways, the fact Robinson looked like a kid was because he was domianted by Sabonis.

No, nothing to do with that. He was probably the best centre born in his year and, if not for his injuries, he could have played at the same level as those great centrers of the moment in the NBA, Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson himself, last years of Abdul-Jabbar and later Mutombo, Mourning and O'Neal.
That final that the USSR played and won vs USA (college) was one, if not the main reason for the Dream Team to become a reality and therefore NBA players being allowed to play in international competitions and Sabonis was, without a doubt, the main point in in that discussion. Nevertheless, Robinson was hell of a player even at that moment and didn't look like a kid at all, in fact he was part of the all-tournament team that year, but Sabonis was at his peak during those years until around 89, almost everyone thought he was done for good after that, hence the reason of Sabonis playing in Valladolid at that point, a team where they could never dream of having a player of Arvydas caliber but in those very special circumstances of hiring a player that was an almost sure failure, without proper knees and with all that weight.
The only possible overcome of that was Sabas unmeasurable talent and he showed how a player can dominate Europe and be a prolific NBA player after his 30s playing without knees.

bbms wrote:How about Oscar Schmidt?

He played in five Olympics (the second person to do so after Teófilo Cruz) and was the top scorer in three of them. However, he never went past the quarterfinals. In 1980 he played 7 games and scored 169 points for a 24.1 average. He again scored 169 points in 7 games in 1984. His best Olympic performance was the 1988 Seoul Olympics. He scored 338 points for an average of 42.3 points per game. In 1992 he scored 198 points in 8 games, and in 1996 he scored 219 points in 8 games. In 38 career Olympic basketball games, Schmidt scored 1093 points for a record 28.8 points per game average.

He scored 49,703 points in his top-level career, the most ever.[1]

Oscar Schmidt couldn't defend my granmother on a wheelchair.

Greco21 wrote:Gasol is just lucky. There is no Yugoslavia and NBA is way far from what it was in the 80s and 90s. In big tournaments he has the referees giving him asists.

Clueless or not...
Never Gasol.

Petrovic, Gallis or if you prefer Gallis, Petrovic .-

Oh wait, Lucky Gasol just led his team to another Eurobasket gold medal. Only match they've lost (vs. Turkey) Gasol did not play. Navarro's offensive spree probably robbed him of the MVP though.

I'm not saying he is the best ever, but not giving him an honorable mention is just haterism or shameful ignorance. Navarro deserves mention too.

Btw Dirk was in the tournament too.

Oh, and Sabonis >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gallis, it's not even close. Greek homer?

Detlef Schrempf is never mentioned.

I did not put him in top5, but he deserves some appreciation. Maybe it is because he never played in Europe.

Schmidt
Petrovic
Galis
Sabonis
Dirk

I couldn't decide between Galis & Sabonis at 3/4

dr. strangelove wrote:

bbms wrote:How about Oscar Schmidt?

He played in five Olympics (the second person to do so after Teófilo Cruz) and was the top scorer in three of them. However, he never went past the quarterfinals. In 1980 he played 7 games and scored 169 points for a 24.1 average. He again scored 169 points in 7 games in 1984. His best Olympic performance was the 1988 Seoul Olympics. He scored 338 points for an average of 42.3 points per game. In 1992 he scored 198 points in 8 games, and in 1996 he scored 219 points in 8 games. In 38 career Olympic basketball games, Schmidt scored 1093 points for a record 28.8 points per game average.

He scored 49,703 points in his top-level career, the most ever.[1]

Oscar Schmidt couldn't defend my granmother on a wheelchair.

??? He had a good all around game I thought??? his scoring was so good though that it was what he was recognised for though.

droponov wrote:Petrovic wasn't even in the same planet of Gasol. I think Drazen is overrated these days because of his premature death. Also because he was a scorer and people tend to underrate non-scoring contributions. Petrovic was a very good player but not an All-NBA type like Gasol. A very good scorer and good shooter with awful defense and rebounding and pedestrian playmaking.

I agree with you, that Drazen is behind Gasol, but I really have to disagree that he's overrated. His last two seasons in the NBA was pretty good!I would put him in the top 5!

However...tough to compare him now!

dr. strangelove wrote:

bbms wrote:How about Oscar Schmidt?

He played in five Olympics (the second person to do so after Teófilo Cruz) and was the top scorer in three of them. However, he never went past the quarterfinals. In 1980 he played 7 games and scored 169 points for a 24.1 average. He again scored 169 points in 7 games in 1984. His best Olympic performance was the 1988 Seoul Olympics. He scored 338 points for an average of 42.3 points per game. In 1992 he scored 198 points in 8 games, and in 1996 he scored 219 points in 8 games. In 38 career Olympic basketball games, Schmidt scored 1093 points for a record 28.8 points per game average.

He scored 49,703 points in his top-level career, the most ever.[1]

Oscar Schmidt couldn't defend my granmother on a wheelchair.

Not to mention Brazilians can hardly be considered Europeans...

I think it'll take a few years after his retirement before some finally recognize what a special player Pau is. He's up there in top 5 with Petrovic, Sabonis, Gallis and Dirk, a tier above likes of Bodiroga, Ginobili and Navarro.