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Curious to know the opinions of people more in tune with the international basketball scene as I don't know much, who is the best player outside the NBA playing overseas right now?

I guess it would be Teodosic or De Colo. Next year it might be Doncic, though.

Right now, it's Milos Teodosic. After that, guys like Sergio Llull, Nando De Colo, Vassilis Spanoulis. Spanoulis is still the best in a playoff series, or an elimination game though.

I´d say De Colo and Llull

De Colo

DeColo and Teodosic. Both play for the same team - CSKA.

at the moment, teodosic and de colo make cska favourite for the title slightly above real madrid and fenerbahce. they are a deadly duo. but in the last decade spanoulis has been the best player i would take prime spanoulis over both of prime de colo and teodosic any given day, though.

I'd go for De Colo over Teodosic. His defense makes the difference.

baldur wrote:at the moment, teodosic and de colo make cska favourite for the title slightly above real madrid and fenerbahce. they are a deadly duo. but in the last decade spanoulis has been the best player i would take prime spanoulis over both of prime de colo and teodosic any given day, though.

I would take prime Diamantidis over Spanoulis any time. Diamantidis was better passer, rebounder and way better defensive player (one of the best if not the best perimeter defender in Euroleague). Spanoulis was better scorer but that's pretty much it. Diamantidis was also better shooter behind the arc by a reasonable margin percentage wise.

Von Bismarck wrote:I would take prime Diamantidis over Spanoulis any time. Diamantidis was better passer, rebounder and way better defensive player (one of the best if not the best perimeter defender in Euroleague). Spanoulis was better scorer but that's pretty much it. Diamantidis was also better shooter behind the arc by a reasonable margin percentage wise.

Diamantidis was never much of a threat at any time as a scorer. He also needed a supremely talented finisher to work his screen roll game. He never saw a double team ever...He could never beat anyone off the dribble.

Spanoulis..double and triple teamed with the whole of every defense designed solely on stopping him. Opening up wide open shots and dunks layups for all his teammates. Constantly beating people off the dribble and getting into the lane and paint area and collapsing the defense.

In every Greek NT and Panathinaikos edition they played together, Spanoulis was always first option of the team and Diamantidis varied from something 3rd to 5th option.

Just look at the Panathinaikos versus Olympiacos games over the years...Diamantidis never once double teamed, and barely even trapped, while 2-3 defenders were assigned to Spanoulis at all times (1-2 on the ball with always being trapped) and 1-2 designated to help defense on him off the ball collapsing to him the instant he got dribble penetration, and almost always putting extremely athletic defenders over 6-8 tall on him on any switch or on screen roll.

In NBA terms...Diamantidis = Scottie Pippen, Spanoulis = Michael Jordan

Prime Spanoulis > prime Navarro, Jasikevicius, Papaloukas, Diamantidis - with Diamantidis definitely being the worst offensive player of the group. The argument by some that defense pushed Diamantidis over the others isn't one that holds up to analysis. Because Diamantidis was only good at defense early in his career, and only for a few years of his prime. Even when he was at his peak, he could not defend any quick guards and could not keep players from beating him off the dribble. Even when he was at his prime, he was defending small forwards in both Greek NT and Panathinaikos, because he was too slow to defend point guards and most shooting guards. I remember in Greek NT and Panathinaikos for example....Spanoulis almost 100% of the time being tasked to guard the quickest, fastest, best offensive perimeter guard of the other team, while Diamantidis could just wrestle against small forwards. And in the last 3-4 years of Diamantidis' career, he couldn't guard anyone, and he was torched any time his team tried to match him with an opposing point guard.

Just like how Pedoulakis tried to have Diamantidis guard Spanoulis last year in the Greek Finals....and Diamantidis got so lit up it was unbelievable. But people were even then still claiming Diamantidis was this amazing defender...just because he earned that rep many years earlier. The same way Kobe was never playing defense for many years, yet people were still saying he was this great defender, just because early in his career he was. Diamantidis didn't even try on defense the last few years of his career.

From a coaching perspective, Spanoulis was definitely the superior player.

Who's been the best big man? I know there's been a lot of hype behind Zizic, does spending half the season in the Adriatic league make the numbers he's put up less impressive? How does he stack up to Bourousis talent wise?

Patsfan1081 wrote:Who's been the best big man? I know there's been a lot of hype behind Zizic, does spending half the season in the Adriatic league make the numbers he's put up less impressive? How does he stack up to Bourousis talent wise?

Now thats a good question, who is the best bigman? I have no idea, Ekpe Udoh is probably my favorite, but he is very challenged offensively. Overseays ball definitely lacks offensive bigman, most of my favorites and best in my opinion are garbage men with good defense. Ekpe Udoh, Kyle Hines, Khem Birch, Bryan Dunston... They all very good at what they do.
Best bigman on O are probably Nikolo Melli, Paulius Jankunas, Georgios Printezis and Ante Tomic.

I have seen Zizic play couple of times this season, but he never stood out to me. Looking at his stats and highlights, he seem to be monster offensive rebounder and has nice touch around the rim. But I wouldn't call him a star in the making.

Patsfan1081 wrote:Who's been the best big man? I know there's been a lot of hype behind Zizic, does spending half the season in the Adriatic league make the numbers he's put up less impressive? How does he stack up to Bourousis talent wise?

Zizic is a very good young center. He's physical and he's skilled. But he does not have anywhere near the physical talent or skills that guys like Tomic and Bourousis had.

Tomic unfortunately, despite having all the talent in the world is just forever too soft. Bourousis not being in the NBA is another in many examples of ridiculousness of NBA talent evaluation. When he was young he was very athletic, and he has always been super skilled with a huge body. The only thing bad about Bourousis over the years is that he can't guard at all in screen roll or on switches.

Tomic had zero physical limitations to be honest, but he's very mentally soft (like Nikola Mirotic and David Andersen). Zizic is a very nice young player, but there have been far better centers than him come through Europe.

De Colo was awful with the spurs. A complete non factor. Surprised to hear he's one of the best in Europe

Mirotic12 wrote:

Von Bismarck wrote:I would take prime Diamantidis over Spanoulis any time. Diamantidis was better passer, rebounder and way better defensive player (one of the best if not the best perimeter defender in Euroleague). Spanoulis was better scorer but that's pretty much it. Diamantidis was also better shooter behind the arc by a reasonable margin percentage wise.

Diamantidis was never much of a threat at any time as a scorer. He also needed a supremely talented finisher to work his screen roll game. He never saw a double team ever...He could never beat anyone off the dribble.

Spanoulis..double and triple teamed with the whole of every defense designed solely on stopping him. Opening up wide open shots and dunks layups for all his teammates. Constantly beating people off the dribble and getting into the lane and paint area and collapsing the defense.

In every Greek NT and Panathinaikos edition they played together, Spanoulis was always first option of the team and Diamantidis varied from something 3rd to 5th option.

Just look at the Panathinaikos versus Olympiacos games over the years...Diamantidis never once double teamed, and barely even trapped, while 2-3 defenders were assigned to Spanoulis at all times (1-2 on the ball with always being trapped) and 1-2 designated to help defense on him off the ball collapsing to him the instant he got dribble penetration, and almost always putting extremely athletic defenders over 6-8 tall on him on any switch or on screen roll.

In NBA terms...Diamantidis = Scottie Pippen, Spanoulis = Michael Jordan

Prime Spanoulis > prime Navarro, Jasikevicius, Papaloukas, Diamantidis - with Diamantidis definitely being the worst offensive player of the group. The argument by some that defense pushed Diamantidis over the others isn't one that holds up to analysis. Because Diamantidis was only good at defense early in his career, and only for a few years of his prime. Even when he was at his peak, he could not defend any quick guards and could not keep players from beating him off the dribble. Even when he was at his prime, he was defending small forwards in both Greek NT and Panathinaikos, because he was too slow to defend point guards and most shooting guards. I remember in Greek NT and Panathinaikos for example....Spanoulis almost 100% of the time being tasked to guard the quickest, fastest, best offensive perimeter guard of the other team, while Diamantidis could just wrestle against small forwards. And in the last 3-4 years of Diamantidis' career, he couldn't guard anyone, and he was torched any time his team tried to match him with an opposing point guard.

Just like how Pedoulakis tried to have Diamantidis guard Spanoulis last year in the Greek Finals....and Diamantidis got so lit up it was unbelievable. But people were even then still claiming Diamantidis was this amazing defender...just because he earned that rep many years earlier. The same way Kobe was never playing defense for many years, yet people were still saying he was this great defender, just because early in his career he was. Diamantidis didn't even try on defense the last few years of his career.

From a coaching perspective, Spanoulis was definitely the superior player.

Are u serious. Doubling or tripling Diamantidis would be suicidal. He would always find the open man for an easy basket..

As for defending small forwards, that was the obvious thing to do. Both Panathinaikos and the Greek National Team used a lot of 3 guards in their line up. (Saras, Diamantidis, Spanoulis) - (Spanoulis, Papaloukas/Zisis, Diamantidis). Out of all these guards the only who could guard bigger and stronger players was Diamantidis.

Guarding Spanoulis in the finals last year? You must be remembering something wrong. It was mainly Calathes, Feldeine and Pappas and DD13 for some limited minutes in each game guarding V-Span. Diamantidis guarded him in the last shot of GM4. I guess that is the only thing you remember.

Slim Charlez wrote:De Colo was awful with the spurs. A complete non factor. Surprised to hear he's one of the best in Europe

He was decent for the Raptors. I think guy never got a fair chance. Anyway, he took a lot from his stint in best league in the world, now he plays scrubs ( relatively) and is dominating. Great scorer, shooter and has high iq. For some reason, he was so much worse shooting from distance in the nba. I notice its very hard to project how shooting would translate from europe to nba, which is kinda strange, you would figure you would be able to keep high % even against quicker and better competition, but for some reason some great euro shooters never translated to nba well.

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UcanUwill wrote:

Slim Charlez wrote:De Colo was awful with the spurs. A complete non factor. Surprised to hear he's one of the best in Europe

He was decent for the Raptors. I think guy never got a fair chance. Anyway, he took a lot from his stint in best league in the world, now he plays scrubs ( relatively) and is dominating. Great scorer, shooter and has high iq. For some reason, he was so much worse shooting from distance in the nba. I notice its very hard to project how shooting would translate from europe to nba, which is kinda strange, you would figure you would be able to keep high % even against quicker and better competition, but for some reason some great euro shooters never translated to nba well.

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Why do you say that (bold above)?
I'd think that is exactly why great Euro shooters might not translate their shooting to the NBA. The increased distance is a concern, but I'd think you could adjust to that fairly well. I'd think the main issue is that it would be much harder getting good clean looks against the bigger, longer, quicker NBA perimeter defenders. Shots for a guy like De Colo would be much more contested in the NBA than in Europe.
I think they track stats on uncontested shots, it would be interesting to compare Euro players on uncontested shots after they move to the NBA. My guess is that holds somewhat consistent, but they are going to see far less of them.

mojo13 wrote:

UcanUwill wrote:

Slim Charlez wrote:De Colo was awful with the spurs. A complete non factor. Surprised to hear he's one of the best in Europe

He was decent for the Raptors. I think guy never got a fair chance. Anyway, he took a lot from his stint in best league in the world, now he plays scrubs ( relatively) and is dominating. Great scorer, shooter and has high iq. For some reason, he was so much worse shooting from distance in the nba. I notice its very hard to project how shooting would translate from europe to nba, which is kinda strange, you would figure you would be able to keep high % even against quicker and better competition, but for some reason some great euro shooters never translated to nba well.

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Why do you say that (bold above)?
I'd think that is exactly why great Euro shooters might not translate their shooting to the NBA. The increased distance is a concern, but I'd think you could adjust to that fairly well. I'd think the main issue is that it would be much harder getting good clean looks against the bigger, longer, quicker NBA perimeter defenders. Shots for a guy like De Colo would be much more contested in the NBA than in Europe.
I think they track stats on uncontested shots, it would be interesting to compare Euro players on uncontested shots after they move to the NBA. My guess is that holds somewhat consistent, but they are going to see far less of them.

NBA has a lot of wide open shots for any player, even highly guarded ones. The longer and wider court, the pseudo zone, with man usually being played, and the further distance, creates a lot more space and time for shooters.

EuroLeague = less space and time to shoot.

The closer 3 point line actually makes it harder, not easier. That's why FIBA moved the line back, and that's why Team USA got better as soon as they did that. It's also why they hesitated to move it back to NBA range (despite that EuroLeague has been begging for that for years to open up the game more), because it would make it even more easy for Team USA - because it would be combined with making the court bigger (longer and wider), and making it more distance to close out to 3 point shooters. Thus, more space and time for shooters, and more space for ball handlers and passers. And more space for drivers (almost no space to drive in EuroLeague for example).

That's why NBA pick and roll is so spaced, as compared to what you see in FIBA. If they could play pick and roll the same style as NBA in FIBA, they would, but they can't, because there isn't enough spacing to do so.

On the subject....so far the two best players in EuroLeague playoffs are easily Bogdan Bogdanovic and Vassilis Spanoulis. I'd put Brad Wanamaker at third.

I'm not talking about offense.. I love Bogdan Bogdanovic but the heart of this fener team is ekpe udoh.. he is like gobert for utah. he is playing unbelievable right now.

spanoulis = greatest player in europe of the last 10 years

I thought this was an interesting read on which EL guys translate to the NBA and why certain big names are busts:

http://defpen.com/euroleague-nba-players-success/

The related articles at the end go on to analyze which guys the author thinks will best translate (Milo Teodosic, Khem Birch, Cedi Osman, Aaron Jackson, Nicolo Melli).

mojo13 wrote:I thought this was an interesting read on which EL guys translate to the NBA and why certain big names are busts:

http://defpen.com/euroleague-nba-players-success/

The related articles at the end go on to analyze which guys the author thinks will best translate (Milo Teodosic, Khem Birch, Cedi Osman, Aaron Jackson, Nicolo Melli).

I guarantee you this author has barely watched any EuroLeague in his life. That's a bunch of BS, and definitely agenda driven.