Eurobasket 2017

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Re: Eurobasket 2017 

Post#121 » by UcanUwill » Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:32 pm

jinxed wrote:How's Boban doing? I love that guy.


Boban just had one of his best games so far, 21 point 8 rebounds.
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Re: Eurobasket 2017 

Post#122 » by nedleeds » Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:47 am

With all the players sitting out is KP the best player in the whole tournament?
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Re: Eurobasket 2017 

Post#123 » by a-French-Fan » Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:37 am

nedleeds wrote:With all the players sitting out is KP the best player in the whole tournament?


Maybe he will be the MVP but is not alone for this award.

There is still some other good NBA players who really fit with FIBA basketball and had already proven things in Eurobasket. The Gasol brothers come first to my mind.
For France, Heurtel, De Colo and Fournier are serious applicants for the first five of the Eurobasket. I am not talking about other players from other countries, so many absents, and I didn't see them playing for the prep.

Don't forget that good NBA players are not always good with their selection, and some players playing few minutes in NBA or playing euroleague (with a NBA experience or not) may be great
. As a sample, I would take the success of Spain last 11 years ... Of course there is Gasol brothers, but believe me they were not more important than Navarro (a euroleague player) or Calderon (a correct player in NBA, not more). As a French fan, except in 2015 and a strange game (40 pts for Pau with really a lot of FT), Spanish euroleague players were my real nightmare all those years.

With Giannis and Gobert out, battle for MVP title is wide open.
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Re: Eurobasket 2017 

Post#124 » by Genjuro » Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:49 am

a-French-Fan wrote:As a sample, I would take the success of Spain last 11 years ... Of course there is Gasol brothers, but believe me they were not more important than Navarro (a euroleague player) or Calderon (a correct player in NBA, not more). As a French fan, except in 2015 and a strange game (40 pts for Pau with really a lot of FT), Spanish euroleague players were my real nightmare all those years.


I might go for the pure act of faith, but since I usually watch games, I won't.

Pau Gasol has been hands down the best player for the Spanish NT, one of the very top NT players for any country ever (some say even the best, but we don't need to get into that discussion).

Calderón more important than him... are you kidding? How can you get to that conclusion? I'm not sure I've ever read a bolder statement on these boards.
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Re: Eurobasket 2017 

Post#125 » by a-French-Fan » Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:12 am

nedleeds wrote:With all the players sitting out is KP the best player in the whole tournament?

Genjuro wrote:
a-French-Fan wrote:As a sample, I would take the success of Spain last 11 years ... Of course there is Gasol brothers, but believe me they were not more important than Navarro (a euroleague player) or Calderon (a correct player in NBA, not more). As a French fan, except in 2015 and a strange game (40 pts for Pau with really a lot of FT), Spanish euroleague players were my real nightmare all those years.


I might go for the pure act of faith, but since I usually watch games, I won't.

Pau Gasol has been hands down the best player for the Spanish NT, one of the very top NT players for any country ever (some say even the best, but we don't need to get into that discussion).

Calderón more important than him... are you kidding? How can you get to that conclusion? I'm not sure I've ever read a bolder statement on these boards.


I didn't say "Calderon was more important", but the Gasols were not more important. I meant that Spain was a great team with great NBA players and great euroleague players. I only saw three wins for France against Spain, and the rest of the time Gasol's generation walked on Parker's generation. And as far that I can remember all those defeats against Spain, only in 2015 Gasol was our killer. In 2016, in Rio, it was Mirotic.Before (from 2007 to 2012), other players were important during those games. France's nightmare was not only the Gasol brothers, but also other players like Navarro, Fernandez, Ibaka, Reyes, Calderon ...etc

With a NBA superstar above other players you can win a Eurobasket (Krilenko 2007, Parker 2013), or reach a final (Dirk with Germany, 2005), but for dominating Europe you need other great players, and that is the strenght of Spain. Look at this year, no Mirotic, no Ibaka, no Llull etc... that won't be a matter, still Gasol brothers and other great players for FIBA basketball.

As a conclusion, Spain dominated with Pau Gasol as a superstar, but the main strenght was collectiveness with a lot of talent everywhere on the court.
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Re: Eurobasket 2017 

Post#126 » by Genjuro » Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:21 am

a-French-Fan wrote:
nedleeds wrote:With all the players sitting out is KP the best player in the whole tournament?

Genjuro wrote:
a-French-Fan wrote:As a sample, I would take the success of Spain last 11 years ... Of course there is Gasol brothers, but believe me they were not more important than Navarro (a euroleague player) or Calderon (a correct player in NBA, not more). As a French fan, except in 2015 and a strange game (40 pts for Pau with really a lot of FT), Spanish euroleague players were my real nightmare all those years.


I might go for the pure act of faith, but since I usually watch games, I won't.

Pau Gasol has been hands down the best player for the Spanish NT, one of the very top NT players for any country ever (some say even the best, but we don't need to get into that discussion).

Calderón more important than him... are you kidding? How can you get to that conclusion? I'm not sure I've ever read a bolder statement on these boards.


I didn't say "Calderon was more important", but the Gasols were not more important. I meant that Spain was a great team with great NBA players and great euroleague players. I only saw three wins for France against Spain, and the rest of the time Gasol's generation walked on Parker's generation. And as far that I can remember all those defeats against Spain, only in 2015 Gasol was our killer. In 2016, in Rio, it was Mirotic.Before (from 2007 to 2012), other players were important during those games. France's nightmare was not only the Gasol brothers, but also other players like Navarro, Fernandez, Ibaka, Reyes, Calderon ...etc

With a NBA superstar above other players you can win a Eurobasket (Krilenko 2007, Parker 2013), or reach a final (Dirk with Germany, 2005), but for dominating Europe you need other great players, and that is the strenght of Spain. Look at this year, no Mirotic, no Ibaka, no Llull etc... that won't be a matter, still Gasol brothers and other great players for FIBA basketball.

As a conclusion, Spain dominated with Pau Gasol as a superstar, but the main strenght was collectiveness with a lot of talent everywhere on the court.


I can easily agree with that final conclusión, even if I find some slight contradictions along your message.
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Re: Eurobasket 2017 

Post#127 » by a-French-Fan » Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:47 am

Genjuro wrote:
a-French-Fan wrote:
nedleeds wrote:With all the players sitting out is KP the best player in the whole tournament?

Genjuro wrote:
I might go for the pure act of faith, but since I usually watch games, I won't.

Pau Gasol has been hands down the best player for the Spanish NT, one of the very top NT players for any country ever (some say even the best, but we don't need to get into that discussion).

Calderón more important than him... are you kidding? How can you get to that conclusion? I'm not sure I've ever read a bolder statement on these boards.


I didn't say "Calderon was more important", but the Gasols were not more important. I meant that Spain was a great team with great NBA players and great euroleague players. I only saw three wins for France against Spain, and the rest of the time Gasol's generation walked on Parker's generation. And as far that I can remember all those defeats against Spain, only in 2015 Gasol was our killer. In 2016, in Rio, it was Mirotic.Before (from 2007 to 2012), other players were important during those games. France's nightmare was not only the Gasol brothers, but also other players like Navarro, Fernandez, Ibaka, Reyes, Calderon ...etc

With a NBA superstar above other players you can win a Eurobasket (Krilenko 2007, Parker 2013), or reach a final (Dirk with Germany, 2005), but for dominating Europe you need other great players, and that is the strenght of Spain. Look at this year, no Mirotic, no Ibaka, no Llull etc... that won't be a matter, still Gasol brothers and other great players for FIBA basketball.

As a conclusion, Spain dominated with Pau Gasol as a superstar, but the main strenght was collectiveness with a lot of talent everywhere on the court.


I can easily agree with that final conclusión, even if I find some slight contradictions along your message.


I think the matter was quoting Calderon who is not as good as Rudy F or Navarro. But for Navarro (2011 Eurobasket MVP), don't you agree?

By the way, how do you feel for your NT this year?
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Re: Eurobasket 2017 

Post#128 » by nedleeds » Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:12 pm

I take that as a yes. KP is the single best player with Freak and Rudy out. I hope he dominates, hard to judge the friendly matches.
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Re: Eurobasket 2017 

Post#129 » by UcanUwill » Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:20 pm

nedleeds wrote:I take that as a yes. KP is the single best player with Freak and Rudy out. I hope he dominates, hard to judge the friendly matches.


Gasol brothers should still work Porzingis big time.
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Re: Eurobasket 2017 

Post#130 » by TheTrooper » Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:41 pm

nedleeds wrote:I take that as a yes. KP is the single best player with Freak and Rudy out. I hope he dominates, hard to judge the friendly matches.

Gobert in Fiba ball is not the same as in the NBA.
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Re: Eurobasket 2017 

Post#131 » by UcanUwill » Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:47 pm

TheTrooper wrote:
nedleeds wrote:I take that as a yes. KP is the single best player with Freak and Rudy out. I hope he dominates, hard to judge the friendly matches.

Gobert in Fiba ball is not the same as in the NBA.


Ajinca is arguably bigger loss for them. He was dominant last time he played this level of competition. He is very talented, but never figured out how to not to foul at NBA level.
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Re: Eurobasket 2017 

Post#132 » by a-French-Fan » Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:29 pm

nedleeds wrote:I take that as a yes. KP is the single best player with Freak and Rudy out. I hope he dominates, hard to judge the friendly matches.


That was not a yes :)

It was a "maybe".

But for the MVP, I took a look at wikipedia about the last time a player got MVP award without reaching final was in 1963... Emiliano Rodriguez from Spain. Since, allways a guy getting gold or silver (the last one was Dirk in 2005).

I really Like Latvia with KP, Strelnieks and Bertans brothers, but you need a good bench to reach semi-finals and final.

So, I would add Croatia with the last years top four in Europe (Spain, Serbia, France, Lithuania) among applicants for final game.

So the MVP should be among those players:
- Pau and Marc Gasol (Few days ago I would say Llull)
- Maybe Bogdanovic for Serbia (sorry, without Bjelica, Teodosic, Radulijca, Jokic ... hard to find a MVP)
- Fournier (revenge for his non selection last year), De Colo, Heurtel (maybe!) .
- Jonas Valanciunas (sorry, for me as a superstar he is the only one, but I know that there is other excellent players)
- Bogdanovic, Saric (Bender I expect him in 2 years for WC)
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Re: Eurobasket 2017 

Post#133 » by a-French-Fan » Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:44 pm

UcanUwill wrote:
TheTrooper wrote:
nedleeds wrote:I take that as a yes. KP is the single best player with Freak and Rudy out. I hope he dominates, hard to judge the friendly matches.

Gobert in Fiba ball is not the same as in the NBA.


Ajinca is arguably bigger loss for them. He was dominant last time he played this level of competition. He is very talented, but never figured out how to not to foul at NBA level.


Ajinca has good hands, was really usefull for 2013 title. (but the hero in the paint for defense was Florent Pietrus defending Marc Gasol). He was very stupid during 2016 prep. So I don't expect him to come back any year.

Gobert was really good against Gasol brothers in 2014, had not the right to defend on Pau in 2015 (watch semi-final and you will understand), and 2016 was a collective sinking for France.

After Parker retirement, offensive potential is better with De Colo, Fournier and Heurtel (3 guys sharing the ball). We don't need Ajinça to put some points. The big MATTER will be defense, and Gobert is the biggest loss (with Batum and Kahudi, so important for defense). How defend against Valanciunas or Gasol brothers without Gobert?
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Re: Eurobasket 2017 

Post#134 » by UcanUwill » Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:08 pm

a-French-Fan wrote:
UcanUwill wrote:
TheTrooper wrote:Gobert in Fiba ball is not the same as in the NBA.


Ajinca is arguably bigger loss for them. He was dominant last time he played this level of competition. He is very talented, but never figured out how to not to foul at NBA level.


Ajinca has good hands, was really usefull for 2013 title. (but the hero in the paint for defense was Florent Pietrus defending Marc Gasol). He was very stupid during 2016 prep. So I don't expect him to come back any year.

Gobert was really good against Gasol brothers in 2014, had not the right to defend on Pau in 2015 (watch semi-final and you will understand), and 2016 was a collective sinking for France.

After Parker retirement, offensive potential is better with De Colo, Fournier and Heurtel (3 guys sharing the ball). We don't need Ajinça to put some points. The big MATTER will be defense, and Gobert is the biggest loss (with Batum and Kahudi, so important for defense). How defend against Valanciunas or Gasol brothers without Gobert?


Valanciunas been stinking all prep time, wouldn't worry about him. Spain will be a problem for everyone, they are huge favorites.
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Re: Eurobasket 2017 

Post#135 » by mojo13 » Thu Aug 24, 2017 5:02 pm

UcanUwill wrote:
nedleeds wrote:I take that as a yes. KP is the single best player with Freak and Rudy out. I hope he dominates, hard to judge the friendly matches.


Gasol brothers should still work Porzingis big time.



It is criminal how Euro fans under-rate Marc Gasol. Maybe it is just my NBA-centric view and FIBA is a very different game. But Marc is the best NBA player playing Eurobasket right now by a wide margin - he'd likely be the top 1-3 NBA players in Eurobasket if no one was missing (Giannis and Jokic would give him a run). He has been the best European player in the NBA for the past 4-5 years. I really don't know historically if he has been limited in FIBA by him taking a submissive role to big brother, or just not used properly by Spain or his game not really translating to FIBA. You guys please tell me....

3× NBA All-Star (2012, 2015, 2017)
NBA Defensive Player of the Year Award (2013)
All-NBA Second Team (2013)
NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2013)
All-NBA First Team (2015)

Marc and Dirk (Noah too if he counts) are the only European players to be named All-NBA First team ever!
Out of nowhere this year Marc stated dropping 1.4 threes a game on 39% shooting - along with a Jokic like 5 assist per game and 19 points a game.

Comparitive NBA stats of Marc, Pau, Jokic, KP and Gobert for the 16/17 season:
http://bkref.com/tiny/vfYfg

Marc is almost a blend of KPs outside shooting, Gobert's defense, Jokic's passing and Pau of a few years ago's scoring. Maybe not quiet as good as each in their elite skillset, but a better all around player.
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Re: Eurobasket 2017 

Post#136 » by a-French-Fan » Thu Aug 24, 2017 5:24 pm

mojo13 wrote:
UcanUwill wrote:
nedleeds wrote:I take that as a yes. KP is the single best player with Freak and Rudy out. I hope he dominates, hard to judge the friendly matches.


Gasol brothers should still work Porzingis big time.



It is criminal how Euro fans under-rate Marc Gasol. Maybe it is just my NBA-centric view and FIBA is a very different game. But Marc is the best NBA player playing Eurobasket right now by a wide margin - he'd likely be the top 1-3 NBA players in Eurobasket if no one was missing (Giannis and Jokic would give him a run). He has been the best European player in the NBA for the past 4-5 years. I really don't know historically if he has been limited in FIBA by him taking a submissive role to big brother, or just not used properly by Spain or his game not really translating to FIBA. You guys please tell me....

3× NBA All-Star (2012, 2015, 2017)
NBA Defensive Player of the Year Award (2013)
All-NBA Second Team (2013)
NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2013)
All-NBA First Team (2015)

Marc and Dirk (Noah too if he counts) are the only European players to be named All-NBA First team ever!
Out of nowhere this year Marc stated dropping 1.4 threes a game on 39% shooting - along with a Jokic like 5 assist per game and 19 points a game.

Comparitive NBA stats of Marc, Pau, Jokic, KP and Gobert for the 16/17 season:
http://bkref.com/tiny/vfYfg


1) stats are not all, if you want to compare Big men it's even more true.

2) best europlayer un NBA for five years? Parker 2013 and 2014, Giannis 2017.

3) Pau is the Real Spain superstar, but no one in Europe who Watchers games under-rate Marc. WE almost All recognize him as equal of his Brother last years
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Re: Eurobasket 2017 

Post#137 » by nedleeds » Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:07 pm

UcanUwill wrote:
nedleeds wrote:I take that as a yes. KP is the single best player with Freak and Rudy out. I hope he dominates, hard to judge the friendly matches.


Gasol brothers should still work Porzingis big time.


My guess is in an iso post up there are probably 2-3 players on Earth who can guard Pau or Marc in single coverage. Neither of them can check KP either without reaching or grabbing. My point was more about who the single best overall basketball player is in Eurobasket this year, especially with many great players (Jokic, Freak and Gobert) sitting out.

With the Knicks he has suffered through having 2 of the worst PGs in the league. This past year being awful and a chucker at PG. And having 3 coaches in 2 years, at least 2 of which who were just bad. Jury is out on Hornacek. I am interested to see if given the short amount of time to prepare if the Latvian staff can build a system around him, and how he reacts to being the focus of the offense (and the other team defense). I understand the competition isn't NBA level, but it's not bad.
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Re: Eurobasket 2017 

Post#138 » by Genjuro » Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:54 pm

Marc is a great player but he hasn't been able to display his game in the NT playing under the shadow of his brother. IMO he's not any realistic candidate for the MVP unless Pau gets injured.

a-French-Fan wrote:I think the matter was quoting Calderon who is not as good as Rudy F or Navarro. But for Navarro (2011 Eurobasket MVP), don't you agree?

By the way, how do you feel for your NT this year?


Navarro was as good as Pau Gasol (better if you want) in one tournament. Yes, in 2011. That doesn't make him globally as important. Calderón was kind of close as well in 2007, but his production for Spain has been significantly poorer than Navarro's along his career. Rudy has never been really close to Pau, not in a single tournament IMO, even if he's been a phenomenal contributor for many years.

I feel weird about Spain. I think it's a very unbalanced team with too many high quality centers and a glaring lack of wings and forwards. It's the most talented squad given the absences, but a good game plan could very well knock them down. It feels wrong that it's still the favourite to win the Eurobasket in 2017. Those injuries...
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Re: Eurobasket 2017 

Post#139 » by a-French-Fan » Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:32 am

Pronostics:
1. France
2. Slovenia
3. Greece
4. Finland
5. Iceland
6. Poland

B.
Lithuania
Italy
Germany
Israel
Georgia
Ukrain

C:
Spain
Croatia
czech Republic
Montenegro
Hungary
Roumania

D.Serbia
Latvia
Turkey
Russia
Belgium
Great Britan

Sweet 16:

Italy - Greece
Spain Russia

France Israel
Czech Republic - Latvia

Lithuania- Finland
Croatia - Turkey

Slovenia- Germany
Serbia - Montenegro

Quarter-finals:
Spain - Italy
France - Latvia
Lithuania - Croatia
Serbia - Slovenia

Semi-finals:
Spain - France
Croatia - Serbia

Final: Spain defeats Croatia

3rd place: France defeats Serbia
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Re: Eurobasket 2017 

Post#140 » by UcanUwill » Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:40 am

a-French-Fan wrote:Pronostics:
1. France
2. Slovenia
3. Greece
4. Finland
5. Iceland
6. Poland

B.
Lithuania
Italy
Germany
Israel
Georgia
Ukrain

C:
Spain
Croatia
czech Republic
Montenegro
Hungary
Roumania

D.Serbia
Latvia
Turkey
Russia
Belgium
Great Britan

Sweet 16:

Italy - Greece
Spain Russia

France Israel
Czech Republic - Latvia

Lithuania- Finland
Croatia - Turkey

Slovenia- Germany
Serbia - Montenegro

Quarter-finals:
Spain - Italy
France - Latvia
Lithuania - Croatia
Serbia - Slovenia

Semi-finals:
Spain - France
Croatia - Serbia

Final: Spain defeats Croatia

3rd place: France defeats Serbia


I think Georgia can finish third in their group, Poland shouldnt be last either.

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