Navarro Named Euroleague MVP... LMAO!!!

[KWSN-Men]

Sure i didn't do the math i just picked a number based on roughly how many max contract guys are in the NBA. And how many players in Europe could be the second or third option on an NBA team and how man teams there are in the NBA.
So players who i think could be a second or third option in the NBA:

Smodiš
Navarro
Šiškauskas
Lorbek
D.Lavrinovič
K.Lavrinovič
Papaloukas
Diamantidis
Spanoulis (and don't give me the...he was a bench wormer with the Rockets, well so was Nachbar and he was a starter for NO)
Pekovic(could even be the leading scorer)
Rubio
Rakocevic (see Spanoulis)
Ilyasova
Childress
Mcintyre
Bourousis
Reyes
Batiste
Vazquez
Anderson
Fisher

Those are the players of the top of my head.

NOTE I am not saying they are individually better then the players on your list i am just saying that what the would bring to a team would be of equal importance.
Sure i pulled the number 35 our of my ass and it very well may be 50 however the point still stands even if it is 50, after those 50 the leagues are the same.

Oh edit to add: Even if the number of players is 60 which may be it is that means only 2 players on every NBA team are better then any other player in the Euroleague, which in tern means that the Euroleague is only great 2 players per team worse then the NBA which now that i say it sounds about right so i change my initial number of 35 to 60.
And my point still stands the Euroleague is not that much worse then the NBA only 2 players per team.

Sorry, but I have to disagree. You're not taking into account the fact that NBA style of basketball relies heavily on athleticism. Out of those guys you listed, I only see Rubio and Pekovic be a 2nd or 3rd option in the NBA. Rubio, as a PG and an outstanding defender, has enough potential to make up for his lack of athleticism. Pekovic, even at the NBA level and with the lack of quality big men, would still be one of the strongest players in the league. The other guys don't have enough athleticism to be anything more than decent starters or role players. I'm with Joana on this one.

I'm not one bit. For example go ahead and name me 100 NBA guys that are better than Scola, who also according to the NBA "experts" was "too slow and nonathletic to play in the NBA". Please, I can't wait to see this list.

[Alyosha12]

Sure i didn't do the math i just picked a number based on roughly how many max contract guys are in the NBA. And how many players in Europe could be the second or third option on an NBA team and how man teams there are in the NBA.
So players who i think could be a second or third option in the NBA:

Smodiš
Navarro
Šiškauskas
Lorbek
D.Lavrinovič
K.Lavrinovič
Papaloukas
Diamantidis
Spanoulis (and don't give me the...he was a bench wormer with the Rockets, well so was Nachbar and he was a starter for NO)
Pekovic(could even be the leading scorer)
Rubio
Rakocevic (see Spanoulis)
Ilyasova
Childress
Mcintyre
Bourousis
Reyes
Batiste
Vazquez
Anderson
Fisher

Those are the players of the top of my head.

NOTE I am not saying they are individually better then the players on your list i am just saying that what the would bring to a team would be of equal importance.
Sure i pulled the number 35 our of my ass and it very well may be 50 however the point still stands even if it is 50, after those 50 the leagues are the same.

Oh edit to add: Even if the number of players is 60 which may be it is that means only 2 players on every NBA team are better then any other player in the Euroleague, which in tern means that the Euroleague is only great 2 players per team worse then the NBA which now that i say it sounds about right so i change my initial number of 35 to 60.
And my point still stands the Euroleague is not that much worse then the NBA only 2 players per team.

Sorry, but I have to disagree. You're not taking into account the fact that NBA style of basketball relies heavily on athleticism. Out of those guys you listed, I only see Rubio and Pekovic be a 2nd or 3rd option in the NBA. Rubio, as a PG and an outstanding defender, has enough potential to make up for his lack of athleticism. Pekovic, even at the NBA level and with the lack of quality big men, would still be one of the strongest players in the league. The other guys don't have enough athleticism to be anything more than decent starters or role players. I'm with Joana on this one.

May be but thats faulty logic.
By that standard you could also say that 30 out of the top 60 players in the NBA would not make it in the Euroleague because of a lack of a steady jump shot, or because they can't get started without shooting themselves into a rhythm or because they lack the understanding how to defend the p'n'r play team d position on defense, because they don't move without the ball well etc. etc.

I was just comparing what those players could bring to any team they play on, and they would sourly bring a lot. They would bring a lot more then almost any other NBA player who is the 3-12th player on an NBA team.

[Rasho Brezec]

I'm not one bit. For example go ahead and name me 100 NBA guys that are better than Scola, who also according to the NBA "experts" was "too slow and nonathletic to play in the NBA". Please, I can't wait to see this list.

Scola just proves my point. He's a serviceable starting role player, like I said.

May be but thats faulty logic.
By that standard you could also say that 30 out of the top 60 players in the NBA would not make it in the Euroleague because of a lack of a steady jump shot, or because they can't get started without shooting themselves into a rhythm or because they lack the understanding how to defend the p'n'r play team d position on defense, because they don't move without the ball well etc. etc.

I was just comparing what those players could bring to any team they play on, and they would sourly bring a lot. They would bring a lot more then almost any other NBA player who is the 3-12th player on an NBA team.

It's not quite the same. Athleticism can't be taught, those things can be.

[androcles]

Navarro is a great player and certainly could be a very good player in the NBA.

Navarro is obviously a great player in the Euroleague, he played one season in the NBA at age 27 and proved that he was NOT a "very good" player. He's just a decent player. A guy like Andre Iguodala is a "very good" player. Kirk Hinrich is a "good" player. Navarro is "decent," "okay," or "alright" player, but never "very good." It's not as if Navarro came to the NBA when he was 21 years old and had the season that he had, he was already a 27 year old man FULLY in his basketball prime. Obviously to him it's better to be a great player in the Euroleague with a chance to win MVP every year than it is just to be a decent player in the NBA fighting to become a starter for your team.

Josh CHildress is a good player or a decent player? What has he done in Euorleague?

[jt142]

The average NBA player (6th men, MLE type level players) are average to good players at the Euroleague level, but nothing more than that. Nothing even remotely approaching a top player or great player level in Euroleague.

Anthony Parker, Trajan Langdan, Lynn Greer, Tyus Edney, Marcus Brown, Charles Smith, Alphonso Ford (RIP), Terrence Morris, and Terrel McIntyre couldn't even get off the bench in the NBA (not even close to 6th men), yet they're all past or present Euroleague All-Stars or even MVPs.

[jt142]

There are no players in the Euroleague better than the top 100 NBA players under the NBA rules. We are NOT just talking fantasy basketball, we are also talking wins and losses. There might be 1 or 2 players in the Euroleague that could sneak into the top 100 NBA fantasy basketball players. But all measurable and non measurable statistics related to wins and losses will show that player was not in the top 100 NBA players. There are something like 450 player slots to be filled in the NBA. There's no way that there are players in the Euroleague that are better than 78% of NBA players under NBA rules. I think that Jose Calderon's NBA statistics along with the Team USA losses have made people completely overvalue international basketball. No one talks about the American players that were not good enough for the NBA that have gone on to be top Euroleague players... The Euroleague players that are any good are either already in the NBA or they were being talked about as top NBA prospects like Rudy Fernandez. The NBA has already taken the top talent from the Euroleague. Rubio is just the next young prospect to be a NBA player, but he was never a top Euroleague performer.

Exactly.

[brassviews]

There are no players in the Euroleague better than the top 100 NBA players under the NBA rules.

Well, obviously they're not going to be better under NBA rules since it's about adjustment. As well, if you have guys like Lebron and Howard who do the crab dribbles or travel on nearly every offensive possession, it makes the situation much harder for international players to adjust to.

They're taught one thing but then see it being overlooked in the NBA.

[Alyosha12]

May be but thats faulty logic.
By that standard you could also say that 30 out of the top 60 players in the NBA would not make it in the Euroleague because of a lack of a steady jump shot, or because they can't get started without shooting themselves into a rhythm or because they lack the understanding how to defend the p'n'r play team d position on defense, because they don't move without the ball well etc. etc.

I was just comparing what those players could bring to any team they play on, and they would sourly bring a lot. They would bring a lot more then almost any other NBA player who is the 3-12th player on an NBA team.

It's not quite the same. Athleticism can't be taught, those things can be.

Well may be it can be thought, but still many are not willing or simply not able to learn.
For example shooting can be thought yet a lot of NBA players lack a good jump shot for their whole career. The same goes for every other aspect of the game that can be thought. It can be thought but it seldom is when a player is already a pro. If he doesn't learn it by the time he goes to the NBA he prolly never will.
So if its god given talent or a product of years of hard work it doesn't matter, the fact remains that what i said is still true. Some NBA players on that list just don't have the tools to cut it in the Euroleague. Sure they might acquire those tools and then they could play but as of right now they can't. And its a fact that what they lack they probably will never learn.

The average NBA player (6th men, MLE type level players) are average to good players at the Euroleague level, but nothing more than that. Nothing even remotely approaching a top player or great player level in Euroleague.

Anthony Parker, Trajan Langdan, Lynn Greer, Tyus Edney, Marcus Brown, Charles Smith, Alphonso Ford (RIP), Terrence Morris, and Terrel McIntyre couldn't even get off the bench in the NBA (not even close to 6th men), yet they're all past or present Euroleague All-Stars or even MVPs.

Not being able to get off the bench for one team doesn't mean you are a scrub for every team, especially if you can't get off the bench in your first and second year.

Nachbar comes to mind who was glued to the bench for the rockets was a starter for the hornets and was a 6th man for the Nets. So he was a starter for one team a 6th man for another team and glued to the bench for a third team.

How many players like that do we know?
How long did the players you listed stay in the NBA?
Did they even get a chance?
Were they stuck behind an all-star and a good vet?
Did they not fit into the coaches plan or stile of play?
Were they injured after they came into the league?

These are the questions you did not ask yourself when you posted that list but you should have.

Another good example of this is Salmons in his firs few years with philly you would have labeled him a scrub yet he is a contributor.
And there are many other players like them in the NBA, or in the euroleague because they just got tired of waiting for their chance and went to play in Europe yet were and still are great player who can play or could play in the NBA.

Only people who have never playeD any basketball pass their local YMCA or playground can say that if you are good enough you will play. Thats not true a lot of the time.
Sometimes the coach doesn't like the other player, sometimes the player just doesn't fit the team, other times the player is stuck behind another phenomenal player, sometimes the player is coming back from injury and he just gets forgotten on the bench,...

[KWSN-Men]

The average NBA player (6th men, MLE type level players) are average to good players at the Euroleague level, but nothing more than that. Nothing even remotely approaching a top player or great player level in Euroleague.

Anthony Parker, Trajan Langdan, Lynn Greer, Tyus Edney, Marcus Brown, Charles Smith, Alphonso Ford (RIP), Terrence Morris, and Terrel McIntyre couldn't even get off the bench in the NBA (not even close to 6th men), yet they're all past or present Euroleague All-Stars or even MVPs.

There is no limit to your lack of knowledge about the Euroleague. Give it up already.

[jt142]

There are no players in the Euroleague better than the top 100 NBA players under the NBA rules.

Well, obviously they're not going to be better under NBA rules since it's about adjustment. As well, if you have guys like Lebron and Howard who do the crab dribbles or travel on nearly every offensive possession, it makes the situation much harder for international players to adjust to.

They're taught one thing but then see it being overlooked in the NBA.

So, European players can't compete in the NBA because Lebron "travels on nearly every offensive possession." Well, it certainly didn't stop him from dominating in Beijing under FIBA rules. FIBA rules didn't stop Wade, Anthony, and Kobe from dominating either. I guess they just stopped traveling. Euroleague players can't compete in the NBA because it's a faster game with much better athletes. It's a completely different game. The Euroleague is like a glorified NCAA.

[KWSN-Men]

There are no players in the Euroleague better than the top 100 NBA players under the NBA rules.

Well, obviously they're not going to be better under NBA rules since it's about adjustment. As well, if you have guys like Lebron and Howard who do the crab dribbles or travel on nearly every offensive possession, it makes the situation much harder for international players to adjust to.

They're taught one thing but then see it being overlooked in the NBA.

So, European players can't compete in the NBA because Lebron "travels on nearly every offensive possession." Well, it certainly didn't stop him from dominating in Beijing under FIBA rules. FIBA rules didn't stop Wade, Anthony, and Kobe from dominating either. I guess they just stopped traveling. Euroleague players can't compete in the NBA because it's a faster game with much better athletes. It's a completely different game. The Euroleague is like a glorified NCAA.

Traveling rule in FIBA competitions was changed to the same as NBA traveling rules for the 2008 Olympics. Apparently you failed to get the memo.

[jt142]

Not being able to get off the bench for one team doesn't mean you are a scrub for every team, especially if you can't get off the bench in your first and second year.

That wasn't even the point of my post. These players were given a chance and proved that they weren't capable of being productive in the NBA, even on horrible teams. Those are the facts. They went to the Euroleague and immediately became All-Stars. I could expand that list if I wanted to. To say that a player would be better on another team is pure speculation.

Nachbar comes to mind who was glued to the bench for the rockets was a starter for the hornets and was a 6th man for the Nets. So he was a starter for one team a 6th man for another team and glued to the bench for a third team.

He was also a specialized shooter. That was his job, like most European players who try to make it in the NBA. Btw, Nachbar never averaged more than 9 ppg over an entire season. In othe words, he's not worth mentioning.

How many players like that do we know?
How long did the players you listed stay in the NBA?
Did they even get a chance?
Were they stuck behind an all-star and a good vet?
Did they not fit into the coaches plan or stile of play?
Were they injured after they came into the league?

These are the questions you did not ask yourself when you posted that list but you should have.

You could make a case for almost any player, but this isn't the fantasy world. All we know is what we see on paper. Anything else is speculation. Just because one player was able to make it doesn't mean others can. Use facts.

Another good example of this is Salmons in his firs few years with philly you would have labeled him a scrub yet he is a contributor. And there are many other players like them in the NBA, or in the euroleague

There are many players like Salmons in the NBA because that's where the best players and best talent play. Euroleague, not so much.

because they just got tired of waiting for their chance and went to play in Europe yet were and still are great player who can play or could play in the NBA.

Speculation. Use facts. They were NBA scrubs one season and Euroleague All-stars the next. Some of these players tried to return to the NBA and failed. Those are the facts. No 'maybe.'

Only people who have never playeD any basketball pass their local YMCA or playground can say that if you are good enough you will play. Thats not true a lot of the time.

???????

So, you're comparing YMCA scrubs to NBA scrubs. Man, this keeps getting better.

Sometimes the coach doesn't like the other player, sometimes the player just doesn't fit the team, other times the player is stuck behind another phenomenal player, sometimes the player is coming back from injury and he just gets forgotten on the bench,...

And sometimes a player just stinks and is in-over-his-head. Spanoulis' disastrous season in Houston comes to mind. He didn't have the speed and athleticism to compete and was quickly exposed. In the Euroleague, the rules catered to his ability. In the NBA, not so much.

[jt142]

Traveling rule in FIBA competitions was changed to the same as NBA traveling rules for the 2008 Olympics. Apparently you failed to get the memo.

Oh, so that's why they kicked everyone's butts in Beijing. It's so unfair. I can't take the injustice.

[robbe]

NBA rules and coaching style [ask Mike Brown what he thinks about coaching in NBA vs. coaching in Europe] promote different player characteristics than European ball. Nobody in Europe would say that Mickael Pietrus is a better player than Jasikevicius just because he has managed to do a solid job in the NBA, and the other hasn't. NBA success isn't the ultimate let alone the only tool to evaluate a player.

I think it can be concluded that many great Euroleague players [see Scola, Parker, Garbajosa] fit into a glue guy/solid starter role in the NBA, even if they were never really known for hustle in Europe. It's just a necessary part of the game to compete in Europe, something that coaches ask from every player. Offensively, they don't have the standing [if Memphis had looked at what particular play made Navarro succesfull in Barcelona, they could have used him much better], they have a little smaller roles, but they have never had an entire offense run through them anyway in an American sense, because that's not how it works in Europe. The topscorer of EL champion Panathinaikos, Pekovic, averaged 13 points per game. CSKA topscorer Lorbek had 12 a game.

A third thing. A guy like Spanoulis didn't do well in the NBA. When he came back, his game was mostly about forcing the switch and beating the big man in isolation. Now, 20 months or so later, he's a significantly developed pick and roll player, one of the better ones in Europe. The Spanoulis of late 08/09 hasn't got much in common with the Spanoulis of 06/07. Players develop.

[Alyosha12]

That wasn't even the point of my post. These players were given a chance and proved that they weren't capable of being productive in the NBA, even on horrible teams. Those are the facts. They went to the Euroleague and immediately became All-Stars. I could expand that list if I wanted to. To say that a player would be better on another team is pure speculation.

Really now? Where they really given a chance or are you just speaking out of your ass? Lets take a look shell we:

Anthony Parker: The first year in the NBA with philly he played 37 games and only got garbage minutes with 5 MPG. He played 19 minutes one game scored 9 points had 4 assists on 60% shooting. Thats the only real chance he got. The year after he played 2 minutes in one game and 1 minute in the other. If that qualifies as a chance in your world then lol.
Then he came back to the NBA age 31 and you can ask the raptors if he was a scrub. 12,4 ppg 2 apg 4rpg on 47,7 %FG shooting 44% for 3 at age 31 .

Trajan Langdon: in his rookie year in all 6 games where he got more then 20mpg he scored 8,4 ppg 2 apg 2,5 rpg. Next year he really got a chance and even had a 30+ game and a few good games which showed he could hang in the NBA in his sophomore year!

Lynn Greer: Only played 1 rookie year in the NBA and he did show flashes of good play he did have a few 10+ scoring games, he was a rookie, he went up and down.

Tyus Edney: in his rookie year he had an average of 11ppg 6apg and 2,5 rpg. Hardly a scrubs numbers so he showed he could hang in the NBA even in his rookie year.

Marcus Brown: in his rookie year only got to play 8 +10 mpg games. In those games he averaged something over 7 points. Still not bad for a rook with limited minutes. Next year he was traded and only got to play 5 games. In 99 he came back for a month played 6 games and got a little over 5 mpg.

Alphonso Ford: who played in Europe in the 90s when it was a much weaker league but what the hell.
In his rookie year he played 6 games with 2,5mpg hardly a chance. Next year he got to play 5 games.
Got some good minutes in 3 of them scored 8,2,6 points and added roughly 6 rbs and 3 assists in all 3 of them.

Terrell McIntyre: didn't even play in the NBA lol so how he got a chance to play as you say is beyond me. He just proves that you have no idea who these players are let alone if they are good or got a chance in the NBA. You are just talking out of your ass.

And pick NBA players who really got chances like Araújo who really is a scrub and went to Europe and was a scrub there too.

So, you're comparing YMCA scrubs to NBA scrubs. Man, this keeps getting better.

No i was talking about people who say about players in Europe that if they were good enough they would have played in the NBA and wouldn't need to jump to Europe. That is not true in a lot of cases.

He was also a specialized shooter. That was his job, like most European players who try to make it in the NBA. Btw, Nachbar never averaged more than 9 ppg over an entire season. In othe words, he's not worth mentioning.

Nachbar is worth mentioning because he shows how roles can chance in the NBA depending on where you play.

You could make a case for almost any player, but this isn't the fantasy world. All we know is what we see on paper. Anything else is speculation. Just because one player was able to make it doesn't mean others can. Use facts.

And i suppose you think you are using facts when you have no idea in the world how euroleague even looks like let alone what the quality of it is. That is real speculating you have yet to see a euroleague game yet feel qualified to talk about it. Why is that?

[Triple H]

Well, Francisco Elson barely play in Barcelona or Valencia, and two years later he was a starter in Denver most of the season... Varejao got more minutes in Cleveland than in Barcelona... Josh Childress has better stats in NBA than in Euroleague...
So, there are many average players in Europe that could play in NBA if they could find their appropiated team and role.

BTW, IMHO Navarro doesnt deserve that MVP... is as if this season NBA MVP would have been Michael Redd

[Joana]

There are no players in the Euroleague better than the top 100 NBA players under the NBA rules. We are NOT just talking fantasy basketball, we are also talking wins and losses. There might be 1 or 2 players in the Euroleague that could sneak into the top 100 NBA fantasy basketball players. But all measurable and non measurable statistics related to wins and losses will show that player was not in the top 100 NBA players. There are something like 450 player slots to be filled in the NBA. There's no way that there are players in the Euroleague that are better than 78% of NBA players under NBA rules. I think that Jose Calderon's NBA statistics along with the Team USA losses have made people completely overvalue international basketball. No one talks about the American players that were not good enough for the NBA that have gone on to be top Euroleague players... The Euroleague players that are any good are either already in the NBA or they were being talked about as top NBA prospects like Rudy Fernandez. The NBA has already taken the top talent from the Euroleague. Rubio is just the next young prospect to be a NBA player, but he was never a top Euroleague performer.

What's exactly a non measurable statistic?