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accountability for turnovers

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Re: accountability for turnovers 

Post#41 » by Marvel » Tue Nov 2, 2010 10:35 pm

fatlever wrote:fun with bball-ref player finders

criteria
how many times has a bobcat had 5+ turnovers and played 30+ minutes in a loss while LB has been head coach? 68 times

here is the breakdown

wallace 17x
jackson 13x
diaw 13x
felton 13x
augustin 4x
okafor 3x
tyrus 1x
mohammed 1x
chandler 1x

change it to 6+, which has happened 30x

diaw 8x
jackson 7x
wallace 6x
felton 6x
augustin 2x
okafor 1x


Hence the reason why our offense is stagnant in 3rd quarters.Doris,Jax and Wallace do too much with the ball for average ball handlers, because LB allows them to.I'd like to see where DJ would be after this season is done.
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Re: accountability for turnovers 

Post#42 » by BigSlam » Sat Nov 6, 2010 12:48 pm

Just checked on some numbers. Before LB became our head coach we were always around the middle of the pack in turn overs per game.

Since he took over we have been the 5th worst, 2nd worst and now the worst.

Funny that for a guy who hates turn overs so much, we are much more guilty of them with him at the helm.
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Re: accountability for turnovers 

Post#43 » by fatlever » Sat Nov 6, 2010 3:15 pm

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Re: accountability for turnovers 

Post#44 » by fatlever » Sat Nov 6, 2010 3:27 pm

i am still waiting on LB to actually prove to me that he does in fact hate turnovers. he seems to casually discus the problem after games talking about good turnovers and bad turnovers etc... at what point does he say enough is enough.

STOP ASKING JAX, CRASH AND DIAW TO CREATE OFFENSE FROM THE 3PT LINE

those 3 are way too careless with the ball away from the basket. jax walks every time he goes into the triple threat position and tries to drive. diaw and jax attempt far too many risky cross count passes (something i remember LB always talking about - swinging the ball from side to side), wallace tries to make something out of nothing by driving through a team of defender.

simplify the game. pick and roll, post up jax and diaw more to get them closer to the basket, let dj handle the ball more.

we also need more speed and better ballhandlers on the team. jax, crash and diaw are all 6'8" and they all like to handle the ball away from the basket, but none of them are particularly good ballhandlers and being so tall the ball has a long way to travel to the floor and back. lots of room for errors. jax just seems too slow to effectively play shooting guard at this point in his career. our lack of speed seems to lead to us forcing the ball into tight spaces.

we need more shooters to spread the defense. all of our offense has to come from drives into the paint or passes into the paint and every defense knows it. they crowd the paint picking off our lazy passes through traffic and take charges or force turnovers as we try to drive into a crowd.

we have to develop a low post threat and we need more shooters to spread the defense.
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Re: accountability for turnovers 

Post#45 » by Marvel » Sat Nov 6, 2010 8:56 pm

Well put fat,LB might have a distaste for shooting and 3 pointers but you NEED both of those assets to run an effective offense,hence why "our' offense is so predictable teams probably take the scotuing report and throw it in the rubbbish the night before they play us,a la Orlando in the 1st round of the playoffs.
This old dog needs to go,his defensive system worked but Crash and Jax can't continue to play at this level for 40 minutes a night.Crash is burning out and Jax is too at his age,yet LB insists our offense should be based around them.
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Re: accountability for turnovers 

Post#46 » by fatlever » Mon Nov 8, 2010 8:37 pm

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Re: accountability for turnovers 

Post#47 » by fatlever » Tue Nov 9, 2010 3:02 am

6 more awful turnovers for jax vs the spurs. ho hum.
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Re: accountability for turnovers 

Post#48 » by Battery » Tue Nov 9, 2010 3:26 am

fatlever wrote:6 more awful turnovers for jax vs the spurs. ho hum.



Players who are averaging more turnovers than Jax...

Nash
Rose
Lebron
Durant
Deron
Amar'e
Wade
Rondo
Parker
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Re: accountability for turnovers 

Post#49 » by Diop » Tue Nov 9, 2010 4:09 am

Battery wrote:
fatlever wrote:6 more awful turnovers for jax vs the spurs. ho hum.



Players who are hurting their team less than Jax...

Nash
Rose
Lebron
Durant
Deron
Amar'e
Wade
Rondo
Parker


fixed

or players I wish we could trade Jax for but could never happen.

either way, Jax can't be compared to that group at the moment. Not in a positive way anyhow
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Re: accountability for turnovers 

Post#50 » by Marvel » Tue Nov 9, 2010 4:19 am

LOL all those players are helping their team and their record speaks for themselves.Jackson's team ahhh 1-7.
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Re: accountability for turnovers 

Post#51 » by e4Nf6 » Tue Nov 9, 2010 5:57 pm

TOV% of these players according to basketball-reference.com as of right now:

Battery wrote:

Players who are averaging more turnovers than Jax(20.0)...

Nash(23.3, Correct)
Rose(16.0, Incorrect)
Lebron(20.8, Correct)
Durant(14.8, Incorrect)
Deron(18.5, Incorrect)
Amar'e(19.1, Incorrect)
Wade(14.9 Incorrect)
Rondo(26.1 Correct)
Parker(17.3 Incorrect)

=/∞
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Re: accountability for turnovers 

Post#52 » by Paydro70 » Tue Nov 9, 2010 6:11 pm

Top turnover shooting guards (20mpg):
Evan Turner - 17%
James Harden - 16.7%
Stephen Jackson - 16.4%
John Salmons - 14.9%
Gerald Henderson - 14.8% (technically he doesn't qualify, just showing where he is)
...and so on

Top turnover small forwards:
Terrance Williams - 19.5
Andrei Kirilenko - 18.9
Reggie Williams - 16.8
Linas Kleiza - 16.8
Gerald Wallace - 16.0
LeBron James - 15.5

Even Tyrus ranks 7, the centers are near the top, and Livingston is #4 in PGs.

It's clearly a systemic problem. The only person who ISN'T turnover prone on the team right now is DJ, who's 7th-best among PGs (20mpg). Diaw and Brown are about average.
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Re: accountability for turnovers 

Post#53 » by Battery » Tue Nov 9, 2010 6:51 pm

Turnover pct is a flawed stat because it's based on 100 possessions.

TOV%
Turnover Percentage (available since the 1977-78 season in the NBA); the formula is 100 * TOV / (FGA + 0.44 * FTA + TOV). Turnover percentage is an estimate of turnovers per 100 plays.


A player doesn't make 100 plays in a game. And it has FGA + FTA, so then what about assists or an offensive rebound?????

Another flawed stat.
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Re: accountability for turnovers 

Post#54 » by Paydro70 » Tue Nov 9, 2010 7:06 pm

Battery, that may be your worst post ever. It's a percentage, like FG% or any other... you don't have to take 100 shots to get a FG%.

Hollinger's version includes assists. Offensive rebounds aren't "using" a possession, the stat doesn't attempt to count for how often a player touches the ball, but how often he tries to do something with it (by shooting or passing) it ends up a turnover.
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Re: accountability for turnovers 

Post#55 » by Battery » Tue Nov 9, 2010 7:08 pm

Paydro70 wrote:Battery, that may be your worst post ever. It's a percentage, like FG% or any other... you don't have to take 100 shots to get a FG%.

Hollinger's version includes assists. Offensive rebounds aren't "using" a possession, the stat doesn't attempt to count for how often a player touches the ball, but how often he tries to do something with it (by shooting or passing) it ends up a turnover.



Who gives a sh*t Paydro? 6 turnovers in ONE GAME is still 6 turnovers.
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Re: accountability for turnovers 

Post#56 » by e4Nf6 » Tue Nov 9, 2010 8:13 pm

Battery wrote:

Who gives a sh*t Paydro? 6 turnovers in ONE GAME is still 6 turnovers.



So If a guy comes in a game plays 5mins and turns it over 6 times before his coach yanks him that's the same as Lebron having 6 turnovers in 43 mins to go along with 25/10/8?

It's interesting...Previously your philosophy seemed to be "Stats mean nothing, Believe all of what you hear and all of what you see," I never thought I'd see you defending a statistic.
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Re: accountability for turnovers 

Post#57 » by fatlever » Tue Nov 9, 2010 8:26 pm

regardless, LB finally grew a pair and sat jax on the bench in the quarter, most likely due to his turnovers.
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Re: accountability for turnovers 

Post#58 » by Marvel » Tue Nov 9, 2010 8:42 pm

Both Crash and Jax look half the players they were last season.

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