Biz Vs Noel

[KembaWalker]

Even past that, I don't see anything that Biyombo does better than Noel. I'm sure Noel at 18 could've done 4pts/7reb/1.8blks with 27mpg as a starter in the NBA last season.

He couldn't because his knee couldn't handle 25 games without snapping. Bismack played a lockout year with no actual coaching and a year of getting coached up by a D3 hall of famer. His is way more gifted than Noel genetically. Its up to the staff to make it work.

except to see a lot of this with an 82 game schedule



meanwhile lets see whats going on in Bismacks world...last tweet

@bismackbiyombo0 24 Jun
Got the best of Gym,love what i do every single day and I enjoy it! #mind #body #spirit #biznation pic.twitter.com/sbqGxCFa00

[Red Larrivee]

He couldn't because his knee couldn't handle 25 games without snapping. Bismack played a lockout year with no actual coaching and a year of getting coached up by a D3 hall of famer. His is way more gifted than Noel genetically. Its up to the staff to make it work.

except to see a lot of this with an 82 game schedule

I don't understand, so you're saying Biyombo is immune from injury because he's stronger than Noel? Because Biyombo sure isn't more talented than Noel, nor is he better at any particular skill.

Biyombo has a career PER of 10 in two seasons, with averages of 5.5pts, 6rebs, 1.8blks. He has 12 double doubles in 143 games. That means about every 12 games, you can count on Biyombo to double up on you, which is sad for a starting big man.

I hope Biyombo becomes a good player and a legitimate starting caliber center, but he isn't looking like it so far.

[Eoghan]

I didn't realize this was an either/or scenario. I still think Noel is a better player, especially if you compare 19 year old Noel with 19 year old Biz.

Realize that I'm saying this that has been on the Biz bandwagon from day one and would be super pissed if Biz got traded. Would love to play Noel at PF and Biz at C.

[Liver_Pooty]

I voted Biyombo, but not because I believe he is more talented or because I believe he is a better player.

I voted Biyombo because he never gets injured, and Noels bird legs could pull a Kevin Ware at any time.

[KembaWalker]

He couldn't because his knee couldn't handle 25 games without snapping. Bismack played a lockout year with no actual coaching and a year of getting coached up by a D3 hall of famer. His is way more gifted than Noel genetically. Its up to the staff to make it work.

except to see a lot of this with an 82 game schedule

I don't understand, so you're saying Biyombo is immune from injury because he's stronger than Noel? Because Biyombo sure isn't more talented than Noel, nor is he better at any particular skill.

Biyombo has a career PER of 10 in two seasons, with averages of 5.5pts, 6rebs, 1.8blks. He has 12 double doubles in 143 games. That means about every 12 games, you can count on Biyombo to double up on you, which is sad for a starting big man.

I hope Biyombo becomes a good player and a legitimate starting caliber center, but he isn't looking like it so far.

He simply has a better built body than Noel and its not even close. As far as ripping Bismacks NBA stats, don't really see why it matters. We're talking about who will be better going forward. As long as Bismack takes a big step forward it doesnt really matter what he did last year in terms of prospects. If Bismack develops like he can, the stats he put up at age 19-20 in the NBA will be completely meaningless. Stats can go up and down very quickly. Knees can't go from busted to healthy, ever. 2 stress related knee injuries to the same knee from a guy who weights sub 210 on extremely light high school and college game/practice schedules. and you think he will handle 82 game seasons playing 35+ minutes a night when he needs to gain about 30 pounds to really compete? lol...

[JDuaneWayne]

He couldn't because his knee couldn't handle 25 games without snapping. Bismack played a lockout year with no actual coaching and a year of getting coached up by a D3 hall of famer. His is way more gifted than Noel genetically. Its up to the staff to make it work.

except to see a lot of this with an 82 game schedule

I don't understand, so you're saying Biyombo is immune from injury because he's stronger than Noel? Because Biyombo sure isn't more talented than Noel, nor is he better at any particular skill.

Biyombo has a career PER of 10 in two seasons, with averages of 5.5pts, 6rebs, 1.8blks. He has 12 double doubles in 143 games. That means about every 12 games, you can count on Biyombo to double up on you, which is sad for a starting big man.

I hope Biyombo becomes a good player and a legitimate starting caliber center, but he isn't looking like it so far.

Talk about just picking out some stats and throwing them out there. How many of those games did he actually start? I'm not going to run the numbers but seeing how many games he would have had a double double IF he had played 36 minutes would have been a lot better.

I'll throw out a number that sums it all up for me... 206. I'm close to that and I'm a touch under 6'0"

Plus PER is a weak stat to throw out there for someone whose defense is lightyears ahead of their offense.

[SWedd523]

Went Bismack, not because I think he's a better prospect, but because I really don't want any part of a 206lb "big" man who already has two serious knee injuries before stepping on an NBA court.

[catch20two]

Might as well wrap it up and close this thread then. Biz wins, not because he's a better player, but because he's healthier.

[KembaWalker]

Might as well wrap it up and close this thread then. Biz wins, not because he's a better player, but because he's healthier.

He will also be the better player. Noel will be injured and lose all his time to develop. Bismacks hard work combined with good health will speed by whatever advantages Noel has had playing basketball for a longer period of time

[mrknowitall215]

Might as well wrap it up and close this thread then. Biz wins, not because he's a better player, but because he's healthier.

He will also be the better player. Noel will be injured and lose all his time to develop. Bismacks hard work combined with good health will speed by whatever advantages Noel has had playing basketball for a longer period of time

Well, you got approximately 5 voters that openly stated that they made their decision purely on the fact that Noel is injured. If you swayed those votes, it would be Biz's 7 to Noel's 15

[Red Larrivee]

Talk about just picking out some stats and throwing them out there. How many of those games did he actually start? I'm not going to run the numbers but seeing how many games he would have had a double double IF he had played 36 minutes would have been a lot better.

I'll throw out a number that sums it all up for me... 206. I'm close to that and I'm a touch under 6'0"

Kevin Garnett was 215 pounds when he was drafted. He weighs 260 now. Not every player comes into the league at a chiseled 255. Noel is 19 years old. I guarantee you he won't be 206 lbs by the time his rookie contract is up. Even then, he's still a better talent without Biyombo's strength.

Minutes don't prevent players from getting doubles. If you're productive per minute, you can get a double-double, or close to it in 25-28mpg.

Kevin Love played 25mpg his rookie season and averaged 11/9. In his sophomore season he played 28mpg and averaged 14/11.

Biyombo statistically isn't very productive, especially for a starting center.

Plus PER is a weak stat to throw out there for someone whose defense is lightyears ahead of their offense.

That's not a PER problem, that's a Biyombo problem. If he ever improves offensively and becomes a bigger factor on the boards, his PER will rise.

[KembaWalker]

Might as well wrap it up and close this thread then. Biz wins, not because he's a better player, but because he's healthier.

He will also be the better player. Noel will be injured and lose all his time to develop. Bismacks hard work combined with good health will speed by whatever advantages Noel has had playing basketball for a longer period of time

Well, you got approximately 5 voters that openly stated that they made their decision purely on the fact that Noel is injured. If you swayed those votes, it would be Biz's 7 to Noel's 15

not that he is injured. that he is injury prone to the same knee while already being way too light. somehow he is going to add the 20-30 pounds he needs, play a schedule 3-4 times longer than any in his life while playing more minutes in a far more demanding league and be fine?

i wouldnt mind drafting him and he's still top on my board but only because I don't really care about this draft. Noel having good potential while also sitting out 6 months is perfect for our situation and next years draft. Much rather have Bismack if I had to pick one going forward

[Red Larrivee]

He simply has a better built body than Noel and its not even close. As far as ripping Bismacks NBA stats, don't really see why it matters. We're talking about who will be better going forward.

His numbers from the past two seasons play a key part in projecting who will be better going forward.

As long as Bismack takes a big step forward it doesnt really matter what he did last year in terms of prospects. If Bismack develops like he can, the stats he put up at age 19-20 in the NBA will be completely meaningless.

Sure, but until then, the stats aren't meaningless.

Stats can go up and down very quickly. Knees can't go from busted to healthy, ever. 2 stress related knee injuries to the same knee from a guy who weights sub 210 on extremely light high school and college game/practice schedules. and you think he will handle 82 game seasons playing 35+ minutes a night when he needs to gain about 30 pounds to really compete? lol...

Again, Kevin Garnett was 215 when he came out of high school and peaked at 260 during his career. Marcus Camby was 223, and grew peaked at 250 during his career. Tyson Chandler was 220, and is now 240.

Players build up size in the NBA. That's what happens when you're introduced to trainers, world class fitness equipment, top-flight training regiments, awesome dieticians, etc. You keep mentioning weight without realizing that you're not allowed to do heavy weight training while you're rehabbing from the injury. It takes a while to get back into that, and it's common to lose size because of it.

Noel's ACL tear was a freak injury and completely unrelated to the injury he had in high school as a sophomore. His health is surely a concern, but pretending like Biyombo is immune from injuries because of it is naive.

Talent/skill-set wise, Noel is a better prospect than Biyombo. If Noel is healthy, that gap will widen.

[KembaWalker]

Kevin Garnett was 215, Nerlens Noel is 206. Kevin Garnett didn't have multiple injures to the same knee. His injuries are directly linked. His knee is not built to handle the torque his body puts on it. At 206 pounds that is terrifying because torque increases exponentially in your knees with weight gain.

the only guy I've seen with legs like that recently was our own Hakim Warrick. its weird

also past stats have no real bearing on future stats especially when you're talking about raw project players. its called a break out. either you expect Bismack to have one, or you don't. either way its an opinion. some guys never break out. some do. in my opinion, work ethic is a big part of that. if you think Nerlens Noel is going to dominate out of the gate you're fooling yourself. He too will need to have a "break out" to be anything worthy of being a 1st overall pick and I'd rather bet on the guy who isn't fighting his own body

[Red Larrivee]

If Noel was 215, it would still not be an ideal weight to be a center right away. The point still remains that he can put on size in his NBA career like 99.9% of players have.

Noel's ACL tear is not related to his injury in high school. Doctors still haven't figured out what causes an ACL to tear. You don't have to have an established history of knee injuries to get it. You're not going to do heavy weightlifting while you're in the early stages of ACL rehab. Of course you're going to lose size temporarily.

I don't think Noel is going to dominate out the gate, but he has more talent and is better at anything Biyombo can do, to be a better basketball player going forward. He was projected to be the #1 pick in this draft for almost a year. Biyombo never would have been that. Previous stats have no bearing on your career when you've already broken out. Biyombo hasn't broken out. He had identical seasons statistically.

[BigSlam]

Biz.

I don't trust Noel.

Why is it exactly that you don't trust Noel?

I don't trust his knees.

I don't trust that he can ever bulk up enough to be a PF with oomph let alone a C.

I don't trust his ability to improve at all on offense.

Just wayyyyyyyyy too many things not to trust to take a player in the top 4 IMO.

[Eoghan]

Kevin Garnett was 215, Nerlens Noel is 206. Kevin Garnett didn't have multiple injures to the same knee. His injuries are directly linked. His knee is not built to handle the torque his body puts on it.

I don't think his injuries are directly linked. One was a growth plate fracture suffered his sophomore year in high school and the other was an ACL tear when his knee was forced to bend the wrong way when he landed. Two separate and unrelated injuries is hardly the definition of injury prone.

[BigSlam]

Biz wins.