GT: Cats vs Spurs Sat Feb 8 7PM

[Eoghan]

biz and MKG in the starting lineup means teams have two players they dont have to guard. thats not going to help our offense.

Teams don't guard McBob neither. I'm not in full agreement of a starting lineup turnover but we play 3-on-5 already unless you want to include the occasional one or two 3 pointers McBob make a game.

You're exaggerating.

He's got a point. Teams would have to guard those players if we actually put them in positions where they'd be threats like fastbreaks or rolls to the basket.

I don't think such drastic changes are necessary in February to a starting five that is playing great together.

I guess they're playing great together. It seems more like one guy is playing out of his mind (Al) and the rest are bought in to going to that well as much as possible. We're 8-11 since January and a team with arguably more talent just fired their coach even though our overall records are nearly identical.

[JDR720]

McBob scores 9.5 points per 36mins
Zeller scores 10.9 points per 36mins

so you could say other teams don't have to guard McBob, he is a worse scorer than Zeller

[catch20two]

biz and MKG in the starting lineup means teams have two players they dont have to guard. thats not going to help our offense.

Teams don't guard McBob neither. I'm not in full agreement of a starting lineup turnover but we play 3-on-5 already unless you want to include the occasional one or two 3 pointers McBob make a game.

You're exaggerating.

When do opposing defenses worry about McBob (until he make a couple 3s which is every here and there far between)? He average less points than MKG in more minutes.

[LamarMatic7]

Teams don't guard McBob neither. I'm not in full agreement of a starting lineup turnover but we play 3-on-5 already unless you want to include the occasional one or two 3 pointers McBob make a game.

You're exaggerating.

When do opposing defenses worry about McBob (until he make a couple 3s which is every here and there far between)? He average less points than MKG in more minutes.

Yet we're the worst on offense whenever McBob hits the bench. A sample size of 50 games, including stints with every other starter, besides Hendo, injured, means something.

He's hitting 37% of his threes at a respectable rate for a power forward. I don't see how you can keep criticising him for those three pointers.

Making entry passes to Al, creating off the dribble from the elbow and handing off the ball for a pick-n-roll are all things McBob is good at, but Tolliver wouldn't be capable of doing. Remember that our offense still is in the 80s and most of the time Kemba, Hendo or McBob have to create something out of nothing with the clock running down. Tolliver doesn't have any of this creativity that we are desperate for and get from Josh. It's not like Hendo frequently drives to the basket or will/can create for others. MKG won't do that. We are very predictable with our lack of spacing and creators, hence we need some of that McBob on-the-fly playing.

Claiming that McBob is leaving us 3-on-5 on offense is bogus. There are many way more limited bigs in this league who defenses are ignoring to a larger degree. So what's your argument? Defenses pressure Kemba and let McBob be on the three point line? Yes, NBA teams will do that. What more is he supposed to do than knock down 37% of his threes? That's damn good for a power forward. It's hard to be a bigger threat popping out from the pick-n-roll at the 4 spot in this league.

And also remember that pick-n-roll defense is a whole team assignment. It's not like McBob is the sole player responsible for this. Opponents can do this to us since they can play help D off our starters with no conscience. Watch some of the better teams play to compare our PnR game to theirs. It's so much easier for them to get in the paint off the dribble or swing the ball around with capable shooters of the wing. We have Hendo and MKG on the wing...

His ceiling is a semi-competitive Boris Diaw but damn he is definitely helping us by reaching that ceiling during this season. He shouldn't be as high on the pecking order as he is for us, but the criticism for his play is unwarranted.

[catch20two]

You're exaggerating.

When do opposing defenses worry about McBob (until he make a couple 3s which is every here and there far between)? He average less points than MKG in more minutes.

Yet we're the worst on offense whenever McBob hits the bench. A sample size of 50 games, including stints with every other starter, besides Hendo, injured, means something.

He's hitting 37% of his threes at a respectable rate for a power forward. I don't see how you can keep criticising him for those three pointers.

Making entry passes to Al, creating off the dribble from the elbow and handing off the ball for a pick-n-roll are all things McBob is good at, but Tolliver wouldn't be capable of doing. Remember that our offense still is in the 80s and most of the time Kemba, Hendo or McBob have to create something out of nothing with the clock running down. Tolliver doesn't have any of this creativity that we are desperate for and get from Josh. It's not like Hendo frequently drives to the basket or will/can create for others. MKG won't do that. We are very predictable with our lack of spacing and creators, hence we need some of that McBob on-the-fly playing.

Claiming that McBob is leaving us 3-on-5 on offense is bogus. There are many way more limited bigs in this league who defenses are ignoring to a larger degree. So what's your argument? Defenses pressure Kemba and let McBob be on the three point line? Yes, NBA teams will do that. What more is he supposed to do than knock down 37% of his threes? That's damn good for a power forward. It's hard to be a bigger threat popping out from the pick-n-roll at the 4 spot in this league.

And also remember that pick-n-roll defense is a whole team assignment. It's not like McBob is the sole player responsible for this. Opponents can do this to us since they can play help D off our starters with no conscience. Watch some of the better teams play to compare our PnR game to theirs. It's so much easier for them to get in the paint off the dribble or swing the ball around with capable shooters of the wing. We have Hendo and MKG on the wing...

His ceiling is a semi-competitive Boris Diaw but damn he is definitely helping us by reaching that ceiling during this season. He shouldn't be as high on the pecking order as he is for us, but the criticism for his play is unwarranted.

We're worse offensively when McBob is off the floor because his replacement is Zeller. It's that simple. No advanced stats needed.

[catch20two]

I'm not anti-McBob neither if that's what you want to twist out of my post. He's the best PF we have but he's not really starting material.

[catch20two]

McBob scores 9.5 points per 36mins
Zeller scores 10.9 points per 36mins

so you could say other teams don't have to guard McBob, he is a worse scorer than Zeller

This. And McBob is better than Zeller but he's not really a threat offensively. That's all I was tryna say.

[thruthefire]

Same here. We're in danger of falling out of the playoff race if we won't make a move to bolster our roster.

Heck, I would settle for giving most of Zeller's minutes to Tolliver, and increasing MKG's minutes at small forward. The 4 is Tolliver's natural position anyway.

If it was me, I'd have thrown Zeller into the D-League or into the weight room and told him to bulk up enough so that he wouldn't be knocked sideways every time he entered the paint and until then he wouldn't play again. I would proceed to give Tolliver the starting job from McRoberts, give Biz the starting job from Gerald Henderson and roll out a starting five of Biz/Al/Tolliver/MKG/Kemba with a nice bench involving McBob, Hendo, Sessions, CDR and Adrien.

Well, not only do I want Zeller off the court, but I want Tolliver guarding perimeter players less. He's an awful defender out there. I would keep the same starting lineup, use Biz and Tolliver more off the bench, and use Zeller a lot less.

[Diop]

Beyond the X's & O's, that's what make Gregg Popovich one of the greatest coaches of all-times, because he's not afraid nor too stubborn to make adjustments, even if it mean demoting his best player(s). Tom Thibodeau is the same way with the Bulls. I hope Clifford begin to take notes from their prowess in this area, the ability to adapt is a attribute that could make a good coach great

Not only did he switch Hall of Fame-bound Tim Duncan off Al Jefferson, opting to use Boris Diaw instead, but he also took Tony Parker out of the game in favor of Patty Mills, who went on to be the biggest difference-maker of the game

I was thinking about this last night.

Patty Mills normally plays more shooting guard off the bench, but because he was hot Pop's kept him in and let him run the point.

You know that Parker wouldn't have pouted, its team first and go with what wins.

I just love that organisation, professional, no individual ego's its all about winning and team first.

[HornetJail]

Beyond the X's & O's, that's what make Gregg Popovich one of the greatest coaches of all-times, because he's not afraid nor too stubborn to make adjustments, even if it mean demoting his best player(s). Tom Thibodeau is the same way with the Bulls. I hope Clifford begin to take notes from their prowess in this area, the ability to adapt is a attribute that could make a good coach great

Not only did he switch Hall of Fame-bound Tim Duncan off Al Jefferson, opting to use Boris Diaw instead, but he also took Tony Parker out of the game in favor of Patty Mills, who went on to be the biggest difference-maker of the game

I was thinking about this last night.

Patty Mills normally plays more shooting guard off the bench, but because he was hot Pop's kept him in and let him run the point.

You know that Parker wouldn't have pouted, its team first and go with what wins.

I just love that organisation, professional, no individual ego's its all about winning and team first.

The pacers are like that to an extent. If we can become the kind of team the Pacers are, I'll be thrilled, even if it's a lesser version that is just a tough out in the second round or something.

[LamarMatic7]

I'm not anti-McBob neither if that's what you want to twist out of my post. He's the best PF we have but he's not really starting material.

Of course, once again you go there. Me supposedly twisting things out of your post.

[LamarMatic7]

We're worse offensively when McBob is off the floor because his replacement is Zeller. It's that simple. No advanced stats needed.

It's not like the rest of our bench are world-beaters and thus it discredits the other starters. Having the biggest positive effect on our offense can't be dismissed that easily.

[LamarMatic7]

moreover, the "Zeller is his replacement" argument loses credibility when you acknowledge the fact that McBob is mostly the first (on some occasions second) player of the starters to be subbed out of the game so he could play more minutes with the bench unit. Then he gets his second rest before the half-time when Zeller comes in around the three or four-minute mark in the second quarter to play with the starters. Off the top of my head I can't say that it has been the same deal during the second halves of games, but it definitely happened against the Spurs. So there are some "Zeller with the starters, McBob with the bench" minutes, to boot, in second halves.

even if you want to say that the numbers are skewed because they take the whole season into account (thus the days of MKG being subbed out at the 6-minute mark for JT and McBob staying in for longer), no they are not. I've checked them for the last 18 games (or since December 30th, I don't really have the time now to go back and check play-by-plays to see for how long this has been going on... probably since the time JT got injured) and the difference is even bigger for that stretch. With McBob on the floor we score 103.8 points per possession, with him off it's 96.4. I don't think that it would be the case, if he was the reason for us supposedly playing 3-on-5 as you claim him to be.

(I have to add that Kemba's net rating has been better over that stretch, so McBob is in the 2nd place)

[catch20two]

Thank you for your math and it all make sense but I feel like McBob's rating is skewed because he's the only player with rotational minutes that don't have to play with our worst rotational player in Zeller because that's his replacement. The premise of the 3-on-5 comment was somebody saying that we play 4-on-5 with MKG out there and I disagreed to the point that I said if that's the case then we're playing 3-on-5 because MKG is more likely to score than McBob based on points per minute and averages.

[LamarMatic7]

Thank you for your math and it all make sense but I feel like McBob's rating is skewed because he's the only player with rotational minutes that don't have to play with our worst rotational player in Zeller because that's his replacement. The premise of the 3-on-5 comment was somebody saying that we play 4-on-5 with MKG out there and I disagreed to the point that I said if that's the case then we're playing 3-on-5 because MKG is more likely to score than McBob based on points per minute and averages.

That's a very superficial way to look at it. Points per game shouldn't be in consideration in this discussion at all. MKG is being mightily ignored on the court because of his lack of a jumpshot. Teams are okay with leaving a 6'0 point guard on him. That's the facts that you should look at not him averaging more points than Josh.

As for Zeller being his replacement, I would say that Al has a worse offensive replacement in Bismack. The drop-off from his offensive abilities to Bismack's is way larger than the comparison between McBob and Zeller (as evidenced by the fact that at one point some people on this board wanted Cody to get Josh's starting position, be it a foolish idea or not).