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Lowe Piece on the Hornets

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DY_nasty
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Re: Lowe Piece on the Hornets 

Post#261 » by DY_nasty » Wed Aug 5, 2015 9:28 pm

Braggins wrote:
DY_nasty wrote:
Braggins wrote:I think a dominate low-post player could really exploit todays game, but it would have to be more with passing than just being a pure scorer. Someone who could force doubles, especially against smaller players and small ball lineups, and also exploit a rotating defense with his passing could really do some work today. They'd also have to be mobile and play good defense to not get exploited on the other end. Basically, if we had more legit centers like from the 90s era the post game would still have a place. However, fat, slow, defensively useless ball hogs who refuse to pass (Albus) are basically the worst kind of player you can have in todays game, which is why I've been trying as hard as I can to drill home the point that not only is Al bad, but he is literally one of the least effective players on our roster. He may seem good at times because he has an elite skill, but his actual overall game is terribly ineffective. Psycho T is honestly the only big on our team I would want on the court less than Al (yes, id rather even see Messy Marv on the floor).

Defenses are too fast and smart for that now. Team defense has evolved. If you're not forcing a team to guard the opposite corner, then you'll always be at a disadvantage in this league.

Why would initiating the offense through a forced double in the post preclude also threatening the opposite corner? I agree about defenses being too fast for anything other than a transcendent post player from dominating as a pure scorer, but a smart post passer who can draw doubles should theoretically work. I dont see a huge difference between getting the defense scrambling that way as opposed to guard penetration.

Its a lot easier to crash the paint and stay relevant in relation to the ball than it is to sprint away to the 3pt line then change direction from there for starters. The paint is only so big. The defense is already there. They have to be.

I mean... I understand what you're saying and all but you don't have to double team the paint at all anymore. Guys on the bottom of the bench are just too good these days. The average player is faster and longer than ever. Even getting the ball into the paint is task greater than what it was just 8 years ago.
Mystical Apples wrote:The most clinical example of spacing and shooting was SAS in the 2014 finals. With that ball movement Miami was chasing ghosts. And for Miami's part, they were considerably better when Wade was replaced with an extra shooter even though he was "the better player."

Offensively: space the floor, make the right pass, shoot as defense scrambles.

Defensively: prevent above. Score more.

That's actually a horrible example. Miami got shredded because their entire defense is pretty much predicated on disrupting the offense before it even starts by blitzing the ball handler and making the offenses second pass uncomfortable as hell. Their defense was never conventional because they had no interior to speak of AND they couldn't rebound reliably to end possessions. The lack of interior versatility meant that their bigs jumping out to help attack guards would be at a disadvantage IF that was the offense's deliberate goal - SA might've been the only team in the league that was so adamant about attacking in that way AND its why Dallas gave them the biggest trouble of the playoffs (Mavs don't like to switch or help hard on the perimeter while Miami is the complete opposite).

SA's shooting wasn't particularly amazing, their shot quality was. And Miami wasn't chasing anyone, they were trying to get back to where they were supposed to be. Miami's entire defensive philosophy would've had to change in order to deal with SA and it was simply impossible.

Also, Miami's offense was always crap. Powerful crap. But crap.
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Re: Lowe Piece on the Hornets 

Post#262 » by Mystical Apples » Wed Aug 5, 2015 11:50 pm

DY_nasty wrote:SA's shooting wasn't particularly amazing, their shot quality was. And Miami wasn't chasing anyone, they were trying to get back to where they were supposed to be. Miami's entire defensive philosophy would've had to change in order to deal with SA and it was simply impossible.


Yes, the Spurs shooting was exceptionally amazing. Since your memory is a little hazy about the 2014 Finals:

- Finals record for 3's made per game (11)
- 47% on three pointers - third best ever
- Most assists/game in Finals last 20 years
- Finals Record eFG% .604
- Finals Record for highest % 3PA to total shots (33%)
- Danny Green Finals Record for most 3's in Finals series (in only 5 games)
- Finals Record for Off Rating at 120
- Finals record for 3's made in 1 game (16)

Miami was chasing and lost because of the Spurs historically great passing and shooting from 3.
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DY_nasty
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Re: Lowe Piece on the Hornets 

Post#263 » by DY_nasty » Thu Aug 6, 2015 2:31 am

Mystical Apples wrote:
DY_nasty wrote:SA's shooting wasn't particularly amazing, their shot quality was. And Miami wasn't chasing anyone, they were trying to get back to where they were supposed to be. Miami's entire defensive philosophy would've had to change in order to deal with SA and it was simply impossible.


Yes, the Spurs shooting was exceptionally amazing. Since your memory is a little hazy about the 2014 Finals:

- Finals record for 3's made per game (11)
- 47% on three pointers - third best ever
- Most assists/game in Finals last 20 years
- Finals Record eFG% .604
- Finals Record for highest % 3PA to total shots (33%)
- Danny Green Finals Record for most 3's in Finals series (in only 5 games)
- Finals Record for Off Rating at 120
- Finals record for 3's made in 1 game (16)

Miami was chasing and lost because of the Spurs historically great passing and shooting from 3.

Re-read what I wrote... ffs. Like you couldn't even finish reading the entire sentence lmao

The quality of their shots were amazing.

There wasn't a Peja in both corners and they weren't drilling shots in defenders' faces. Miami's philosophy of attacking the ballhandler above all else put their defense in constant recovery mode. They weren't even ball chasing. They were further behind than that. Miami's defense had guys running back to their responsibilities while SA had guys running to where the third rotation was. That's not ball chasing. That's getting shredded. Miami's team defense literally worked against itself. Its greatest strengths became its biggest negative. Hell, Tony Parker put up no numbers himself but to anyone who knows Xs and Os it was clear that he was the largest driving factor in SA's performance lol
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Re: Lowe Piece on the Hornets 

Post#264 » by Mystical Apples » Thu Aug 6, 2015 5:31 am

DY_nasty wrote:
Mystical Apples wrote:
DY_nasty wrote:SA's shooting wasn't particularly amazing, their shot quality was. And Miami wasn't chasing anyone, they were trying to get back to where they were supposed to be. Miami's entire defensive philosophy would've had to change in order to deal with SA and it was simply impossible.


Yes, the Spurs shooting was exceptionally amazing. Since your memory is a little hazy about the 2014 Finals:

- Finals record for 3's made per game (11)
- 47% on three pointers - third best ever
- Most assists/game in Finals last 20 years
- Finals Record eFG% .604
- Finals Record for highest % 3PA to total shots (33%)
- Danny Green Finals Record for most 3's in Finals series (in only 5 games)
- Finals Record for Off Rating at 120
- Finals record for 3's made in 1 game (16)

Miami was chasing and lost because of the Spurs historically great passing and shooting from 3.

Re-read what I wrote... ffs. Like you couldn't even finish reading the entire sentence lmao

The quality of their shots were amazing.

There wasn't a Peja in both corners and they weren't drilling shots in defenders' faces. Miami's philosophy of attacking the ballhandler above all else put their defense in constant recovery mode. They weren't even ball chasing. They were further behind than that. Miami's defense had guys running back to their responsibilities while SA had guys running to where the third rotation was. That's not ball chasing. That's getting shredded. Miami's team defense literally worked against itself. Its greatest strengths became its biggest negative. Hell, Tony Parker put up no numbers himself but to anyone who knows Xs and Os it was clear that he was the largest driving factor in SA's performance lol


Such an odd take the 2014 SAS are a "horrible" example of passing and shooting. Semantics aside - recovering, chasing, rotating, scrambling, cartwheeling, whatever - Miami couldn't get to the spots fast enough and they couldn't get there because of ball movement. And the open shots created by the historically great passing were knocked down at an historically great rate.

Of note, Parker had the worst Off Rating of all the rotation guys not named Diaw.
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Re: Lowe Piece on the Hornets 

Post#265 » by DY_nasty » Thu Aug 6, 2015 9:38 am

Mystical Apples wrote:
DY_nasty wrote:
Mystical Apples wrote:
Yes, the Spurs shooting was exceptionally amazing. Since your memory is a little hazy about the 2014 Finals:

- Finals record for 3's made per game (11)
- 47% on three pointers - third best ever
- Most assists/game in Finals last 20 years
- Finals Record eFG% .604
- Finals Record for highest % 3PA to total shots (33%)
- Danny Green Finals Record for most 3's in Finals series (in only 5 games)
- Finals Record for Off Rating at 120
- Finals record for 3's made in 1 game (16)

Miami was chasing and lost because of the Spurs historically great passing and shooting from 3.

Re-read what I wrote... ffs. Like you couldn't even finish reading the entire sentence lmao

The quality of their shots were amazing.

There wasn't a Peja in both corners and they weren't drilling shots in defenders' faces. Miami's philosophy of attacking the ballhandler above all else put their defense in constant recovery mode. They weren't even ball chasing. They were further behind than that. Miami's defense had guys running back to their responsibilities while SA had guys running to where the third rotation was. That's not ball chasing. That's getting shredded. Miami's team defense literally worked against itself. Its greatest strengths became its biggest negative. Hell, Tony Parker put up no numbers himself but to anyone who knows Xs and Os it was clear that he was the largest driving factor in SA's performance lol


Such an odd take the 2014 SAS are a "horrible" example of passing and shooting. Semantics aside - recovering, chasing, rotating, scrambling, cartwheeling, whatever - Miami couldn't get to the spots fast enough and they couldn't get there because of ball movement. And the open shots created by the historically great passing were knocked down at an historically great rate.

Of note, Parker had the worst Off Rating of all the rotation guys not named Diaw.
You need to chill and read entire sentences. I said -horrible example- in regard of your statement. It wasn't your typical spacing because their offense manipulates space instead of conventionally creating it. They don't have guys that are masters of losing defenders on screens. They don't have guys that are gonna routinely pull up from 30+ ft out. They don't have guys that are gonna pull up off the dribble and hit with any kind of consistency. Hell, they were actually somewhat streaky lol. Their shooters < Their shot quality, and based on the finals, its hard to compare them to any other team because no other team in recent memory was so offensively tailored to destroy another team's defense. The only near-equivalent would be on defense - how the Pistons destroyed LA.

But whatever you aren't really trying to get into that kind of discussion I think... 'spacing' is a really, really loose term and there's a hell of a lot more to it than just putting guys with good eFG%s out there.
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Re: Lowe Piece on the Hornets 

Post#266 » by Mystical Apples » Thu Aug 6, 2015 1:42 pm

You're right I'm not trying to get into a nuanced discussion about their offense. I know how they play and how Miami defended for those 4 years - I watched 300+ Heat games during that period. SA masterfully took about their defense with initial penetration and then 2-3 passes to a final spot Miami couldn't get to. They played small the entire series and even bosh, who is an excellent show and recover PnR defender, couldn't closeout - or chase and contest - fast enough after several rotations. Miami was always great with the initial pass. It's the 2nd or third that got them. It's just that so few teams had the PG, passers, spacing, and enough shooters to make them pay.

For what it's worth I've read all of your posts and understand your points. I do credit Parker in that series playing a huge role. It's not a zero sum discussion to credit Parker vs Passing/Shooting. It's a given the best modern offenses are great at PnR and spacing/shooting and both are predicated on the other
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