GT: Hornets vs Spurs Sat Nov7 8:30PM EST

[Appwrangler]

Hawes's gotta go.

And the Hawes you rode in on.

I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about

I thought I was being clever but I am probably alone in that assessment. Just basically saying I agree, he has to go.

[steady]

Spurs defense has ranked among the top in league for many years for a reason and they are particularly good at shutting down passing lanes.

2-4 record with only one blowout given the schedule is great

Hornets still have a lot to work on but they are heading in the righ direction

[ChokeFasncists]

And the Hawes you rode in on.

I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about

I thought I was being clever but I am probably alone in that assessment. Just basically saying I agree, he has to go.

Cool.

[TTNN]

My thoughts:

1. It's only 6 games. A 2-4 record is good given the teams we faced.
2. The 2nd unit lacks talent. We complain about Zeller, Hawes, Lin, Lamb but I'm not sure what else they could do. Any one of those four, if put in the starting lineup with better talent, would probably be fine (except for Hawes). But put all four of them together, and it doesn't work.
3. Batum is overhyped. He "looks" smooth but he makes way too many turnovers to be considered a secondary playmaker or scorer. If Batum is your 4th best player as part of a Golden State type team, he'd be fantastic. If he's supposed to be the second playmaker, not so good.
4. Similarly, Lin works best as a 4th best player in a run-and-gun team as well as PNRing with strong finishers (MKG, what could have been...). If he had Ginobili or Mills's role on the Spurs, he'd be thriving. When he's trying to PNR with Hawes, not so good.
5. Is there a lower percentage shot than Hawes doing a running left-handed hook shot?

Agree with you. But that second team lack Chemistry, and none of them were elite defensive player, can not afford when Hawes just decided not to bring his game everyday.

Batum, if played right, could work as a glue guy in that second team, unfortunately, in the past two games, he tried to take over when he was playing with the second team, which is not helping he now plays the full quarter in 1st and 3rd, and the time he tried to take over are at the tail end of it. He become sloppy and also less interested in play defense. Majority of his miss and TO happened when he was playing with the second team.

[steady]

the tale of the 3rd quarter Spurs game

11:27 Aldridge sat with four fouls; West replaced him
7:12 Parker sat for Mills

5:39 Hornets had achieved a 10 point swing from being 4 behind to going 6 ahead

At that point Clifford inexplicably subbed in both Zeller and Lin. (Secondary question: why is Zeller always the first off the bench ?). Usually only Zeller subs in at this point

So we had Walker-Lin-Batum-Zeller-Jefferson on the floor (they have had little PT together)
From 5:39 to 2:23 we had a 13 point lead change - we went from 6 ahead to 7 behind

Clifford took a timeout at 4:21 and again at 2:23
At 4:21 the Spurs had tied it (on two Duncan jumpers and one Leonard jumper), Clifford did not make any personnel changes but Pop replaced West with Diaw and Green with Ginobli making the Spurs lineup more fast, ball movement oriented

At 2:23 the Spurs had gone 7 ahead on a Leonard And-1 and two 3-pointers in a row by Ginobli Clifford called time and replaced Jefferson with Hawes, and Walker with Lamb
Pop responded by replacing Leonard with Green and Duncan with West.

So now the Batum/ Lin/Zeller combination has gone through 2 changes in Spurs lineup and one change in its own line up

-
The bench plus Batum then plays through end of quarter falling behind 10 points more to end the quarter with the Hornets behind by 17 - that stretch starts with Mills hitting a three and Ginobli hitting another three to complete the Spurs barrage of four made 3 pointers in a row.

1:25 Clifford takes another timeout but no substitutions are made

Clifford never plays the lineup that got us back from 20 behind to 5 behind in the Heat game.

The conclusions I draw from all this are spurs have better players, they have played together longer, and Popovich is a mad genius.


And . . . Clifford is playing it a little bit too safe and needs to wing it a little bit more in terms of figuring out player combinations, he is playing it a little bit too much by the numbers and not trusting his gut. And he maybe also needs to be a little more situation specific in making substitutions

[Diop]

Clifford always plays safe. He's actually a lot more flexible compared to last season where he rarely changed his sub plans at all unless someone got into foul trouble

[TTNN]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN2yX43ptow[/youtube]

Our defense is not as good as their offense.

Look at 0:25 play, and 0:48, very similar play. Hornets had different line up, but played the same defense, and in both case, our wing was asked to help very deep, in the mean while, they were anticipated to cover the perimeter as well. So basically they need to be at both places at the same time. In both cases, Lin and Batum were a bit late in close out. Lin actually made it in time, but forgot Manu is a lefty. Both play were in that end of 3Q stretch. We changed line up, but they ran the same play and end up with the same result. I'd think that's something coach need to clean it up.

Hornets defensively switched a lot, and rely on a lot of team defense, and rotations, and Spurs were great on ball movement, and Hornets just could not follow with that pace, and got mixed up with their rotations and assignment.

Offensively, our second team was not "organized", in this game, there is not enough ball movement, and players are not on the same page.

From 3Q 5:39 till the end of the quarter, Hornets were 2-10 shooting, with Lin got FT opportunity. Yet Spurs were 11-12, they simply can not miss.

[steady]

Clifford always plays safe. He's actually a lot more flexible compared to last season where he rarely changed his sub plans at all unless someone got into foul trouble

Really?
That must have been really frustrating.

[yosemiteben]

Clifford always plays safe. He's actually a lot more flexible compared to last season where he rarely changed his sub plans at all unless someone got into foul trouble

Really?
That must have been really frustrating.

Last year is pretty much the season we don't speak of. Anything that could go wrong did and it was incredibly frustrating. It's literally a miracle that we were ever even in the playoffs picture.

[catch20two]

So funny how fickle posters can be.

After last game people were celebrating our bench and suggesting it was one of the strongest in the league.

They were rejoicing Cliff's rotations and for maximizing the rosters strengths.

Batum was announced as the saviour and the vital ingredient we had been missing.

So many aye so happy when things are going so well but are so quick to flip and turn on the team when things go bad.

Bunch of front runners with a "what have you done for me lately" attitude.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

No fickle here. Been complaining about Cliff's rotations before the season even started when he thought it was a bright idea to start Batum at SG. Been saying Batum is 4th fiddle and not gonna score much. Been saying Clifford and Cho must not be on the same accord. Been there done that. Now it's finally coming to fruition for some of y'all that were naive.

[predators]

This is EXACTLY what im talking about. YES I absolutely think hes a bust. He was drafted 4th over and has never once taken a game over in any way shape or form. Dont think hes ever grabbed 15 boards or scored over 20 points. I dont care who else was drafted before or after him that doesnt make him any better. I think he is a decent NBA player. If he was selected 10-15th overall I wouldnt call him a bust but at 4 that is exactly what he is. Its not his fault he was drafted so high im sure he was just as surprised as everyone else was.

Can only say someone is a bust based on the draft he is in. He was in a piss poor draft. Solid pick overall in an absolutely horrific draft

Trey Buerk, KCP, Schroder, The greek freak. All good players drafted after Zeller I can think of off my head. Now your just making excuses for him proving my point even more. He grabbed over 5 rebounds and scored over 10 points ONCE this season. ONCE! let that sink in for a while.

I'm not a huge Zeller fan but Burke\KCP over Cody is a pretty debatable. Cody spent his whole life playing a style that he wouldn't be able play in the NBA, but he is still a 7 footer that runs like he is 6'6".

[Joest2003]

LP likes Cody. Joest doesn't. Let's move on.

Yeah, but LP's logic is way more sound.

Logic is having certain expectations for a #4 overall draft pick not making excuses for him. Just because your girl is in a room full of 3s and 4s doesn't make her any hotter. Funny how that same "logic" doesn't apply for PJ who wasent even a first rounder yet alone #4 overall.

[yosemiteben]

I think there is a fair debate about Zeller to be had, why don't you folks take it to the Cody thread so it's not buried in a random post-game thread?

[steady]

Clifford always plays safe. He's actually a lot more flexible compared to last season where he rarely changed his sub plans at all unless someone got into foul trouble

Really?
That must have been really frustrating.

Last year is pretty much the season we don't speak of. Anything that could go wrong did and it was incredibly frustrating. It's literally a miracle that we were ever even in the playoffs picture.

I'm really glad for you guys that you get to turn the page on last season.
whatever the result I think this will probably be a fun team to follow this year.

[Joest2003]

I think there is a fair debate about Zeller to be had, why don't you folks take it to the Cody thread so it's not buried in a random post-game thread?

I just don't care enough to want to debate it. I simply pointed out how Cody has been immune to criticism and everyone came crying to his defense (proving my point more). But there is no way someone can call Biz a bust but not call Cody one.

[LamarMatic7]

I think there is a fair debate about Zeller to be had, why don't you folks take it to the Cody thread so it's not buried in a random post-game thread?

I just don't care enough to want to debate it. I simply pointed out how Cody has been immune to criticism and everyone came crying to his defense (proving my point more). But there is no way someone can call Biz a bust but not call Cody one.

with every mid-range jumper he misses (currently 0-for-10 from outside 10 feet and further), I see him more and more as a back-up center.

[yosemiteben]

I think there is a fair debate about Zeller to be had, why don't you folks take it to the Cody thread so it's not buried in a random post-game thread?

I just don't care enough to want to debate it. I simply pointed out how Cody has been immune to criticism and everyone came crying to his defense (proving my point more). But there is no way someone can call Biz a bust but not call Cody one.

You sure are putting in a lot of effort to validate your claim if you don't care enough to debate it.

I'm gonna move future posts about Cody's performance relative to his draft position to the thread we have created that is specifically devoted to discuss him, rather than the Spurs post-game thread.

[BlackOutBuzz]

"It doesn't matter who was drafted around Cody, HE WAS THE NUMBER 4 PICK!"

and...

"Look how these other guys are doing, both of whom were drafted after him and are 'better' (even if they aren't)."

Using both statements to defend the same point doesn't make sense, for obvious reasons.

And PJ was a first round pick. If not, he might be worth keeping around a la Jeff Taylor but instead he has the fully guaranteed salary that comes with being a first round pick.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[steady]

My thoughts:

1. It's only 6 games. A 2-4 record is good given the teams we faced.
2. The 2nd unit lacks talent. We complain about Zeller, Hawes, Lin, Lamb but I'm not sure what else they could do. Any one of those four, if put in the starting lineup with better talent, would probably be fine (except for Hawes). But put all four of them together, and it doesn't work.
3. Batum is overhyped. He "looks" smooth but he makes way too many turnovers to be considered a secondary playmaker or scorer. If Batum is your 4th best player as part of a Golden State type team, he'd be fantastic. If he's supposed to be the second playmaker, not so good.
4. Similarly, Lin works best as a 4th best player in a run-and-gun team as well as PNRing with strong finishers (MKG, what could have been...). If he had Ginobili or Mills's role on the Spurs, he'd be thriving. When he's trying to PNR with Hawes, not so good.
5. Is there a lower percentage shot than Hawes doing a running left-handed hook shot?

Agree with you. But that second team lack Chemistry, and none of them were elite defensive player, can not afford when Hawes just decided not to bring his game everyday.

Batum, if played right, could work as a glue guy in that second team, unfortunately, in the past two games, he tried to take over when he was playing with the second team, which is not helping he now plays the full quarter in 1st and 3rd, and the time he tried to take over are at the tail end of it. He become sloppy and also less interested in play defense. Majority of his miss and TO happened when he was playing with the second team.

I like Batum with the second unit but I agree it might be too much to play him through the end of both the first and third quarters. Maybe he should just do the first and Kemba could do the third

[TTNN]

My thoughts:

1. It's only 6 games. A 2-4 record is good given the teams we faced.
2. The 2nd unit lacks talent. We complain about Zeller, Hawes, Lin, Lamb but I'm not sure what else they could do. Any one of those four, if put in the starting lineup with better talent, would probably be fine (except for Hawes). But put all four of them together, and it doesn't work.
3. Batum is overhyped. He "looks" smooth but he makes way too many turnovers to be considered a secondary playmaker or scorer. If Batum is your 4th best player as part of a Golden State type team, he'd be fantastic. If he's supposed to be the second playmaker, not so good.
4. Similarly, Lin works best as a 4th best player in a run-and-gun team as well as PNRing with strong finishers (MKG, what could have been...). If he had Ginobili or Mills's role on the Spurs, he'd be thriving. When he's trying to PNR with Hawes, not so good.
5. Is there a lower percentage shot than Hawes doing a running left-handed hook shot?

Agree with you. But that second team lack Chemistry, and none of them were elite defensive player, can not afford when Hawes just decided not to bring his game everyday.

Batum, if played right, could work as a glue guy in that second team, unfortunately, in the past two games, he tried to take over when he was playing with the second team, which is not helping he now plays the full quarter in 1st and 3rd, and the time he tried to take over are at the tail end of it. He become sloppy and also less interested in play defense. Majority of his miss and TO happened when he was playing with the second team.

I like Batum with the second unit but I agree it might be too much to play him through the end of both the first and third quarters. Maybe he should just do the first and Kemba could do the third

yeah, I was hoping coach Clifford could stacking Batum/Lin/Kemba's time a better more balanced. But recent games, Clifford has been playing Batum/Kemba together all the time, and left the second team to Lin/Lamb, unfortuantely, Lin/Lamb somehow never had the chemistry like Lin/Batum, or Lin/Kemba.

I think coach Clifford was hoping Lamb could be that 4th playmaker so that he don't need to mix 1st team with 2nd team, but I think Lamb just not there. Lamb historically has pretty low pass%, that is, he pass less when he get touches, he was not as bad as Nick Young, but was at Lou Williams level. Hard to work together when ball movement is only one directional.