GT: Charlotte vs. Hawks Monday 7 PM est

[yosemiteben]

God forbid our team believe they could make the playoffs and advance once they get there. They need to accept that they are incapable of winning and stop believing in themselves.

[Braggins]

God forbid our team believe they could make the playoffs and advance once they get there. They need to accept that they are incapable of winning and stop believing in themselves.

Believing that we can beat Cleveland counts for literally nothing. We can't jedi mind trick our team into being better than it is capable of being with the talent we have.

[yosemiteben]

God forbid our team believe they could make the playoffs and advance once they get there. They need to accept that they are incapable of winning and stop believing in themselves.

Believing that we can beat Cleveland counts for literally nothing. We can't jedi mind trick our team into being better than it is capable of being with the talent we have.

Does not change my point at all. You want the coaching staff and players to quit because you don't think they are capable of winning (notwithstanding our top 10 net rating), and you are calling them stupid because they aren't showing that they agree with that perspective.

All that for a maybe 1% chance of moving up in the draft.

[Braggins]

God forbid our team believe they could make the playoffs and advance once they get there. They need to accept that they are incapable of winning and stop believing in themselves.

Believing that we can beat Cleveland counts for literally nothing. We can't jedi mind trick our team into being better than it is capable of being with the talent we have.

Does not change my point at all. You want the coaching staff and players to quit because you don't think they are capable of winning (notwithstanding our top 10 net rating), and you are calling them stupid because they aren't showing that they agree with that perspective.

Ive reiterated multiple times that I don't want the players to quit or believe they can't win. I don't know why you keep repeating that. I want our management to recognize that we have virtually nothing tangible to gain by getting wrecked by Cleveland and that we would be better off using these last games experimenting and giving experience to guys like Wood/JOB/Weber/Graham while maximizing our potential to add talent in the draft. The only thing about the approach that changes is minute allocation and experimenting with lineups and players skillsets. Doing that for 15 games isn't going to ruin our culture or instill bad habits in our players. Of course Clifford should believe we can win, but that doesn't mean he can't understand that it shouldn't be our priority at this moment in time. There is simply very little chance we make the playoffs and no chance we beat Cleveland unless Lebron gets injured and misses most of the series. These moral victories we are getting right now aren't actually going to make any difference in our ability to win a playoff series in the future. Picking higher in the draft, even just a couple spots, actually could make a difference.

[CatgutStitches]

The odds of us hitting a superstar in the draft (whether we get an extra spot or 2 or not) are pretty damn low too...If I have a low chance of doing that or a low chance of beating CLE, Ill take the "try to win" option any day. Its all a crap-shoot anyway. What if LeBron gets hurt and whoever gets 8th seed beats them...how would you feel then? What if we pick 9th instead of 11th do to our fantastic tanking and pick a guy that gets hurts in training camp and never plays in the NBA?

Its all a roll of the dice, I would just prefer to root for my favorite team to win. This is why I could never be a fan of these teams that think tanking is the way to go. TBH at this point in the season I really dont care if we win or lose the games, but Im certainly not going to be upset that the team is showing some grit and fight and winning these games

[Mystical Apples]

Not to be a stickler but why does tanking (or not) rest on the shoulders of the Head Coach? His role is putting CHA in a position to win based upon player availability, not calculating the draft/playoff probabilities and then acting unilaterally.

The FO will restrict players when they've decided to tank. But based on Frank running around with a shoulder harness, Batum's return, and starters without a minutes restriction that hasn't happened yet.

Besides, Clifford *has* played developmental guys. Briante jumped Roberts + JOB until his injury + Christian even though he's clearly not ready.

[yosemiteben]

Ive reiterated multiple times that I don't want the players to quit or believe they can't win. I don't know why you keep repeating that.

Because you can't have it both ways. If the coach alters the rotation specifically to lose games, you can't reasonably expect the players to not notice or give the same degree of effort. Why would they? Their own coach is trying to make sure they lose.

There is simply very little chance we make the playoffs and no chance we beat Cleveland unless Lebron gets injured and misses most of the series. These moral victories we are getting right now aren't actually going to make any difference in our ability to win a playoff series in the future. Picking higher in the draft, even just a couple spots, actually could make a difference.

So you are willing to roll the dice on future upside despite poor odds of meaningful improvement but unwilling to do so for current potential. We COULD help our draft status, but the likelihood of that happening is no better than us either avoiding CLE altogether in the playoffs (there is only .5 game separating 8 and 7) or having a meaningful series against CLE that allows us an opportunity to gain more playoff experience, which by the way would be MKG's first playoff appearance since 2014.

I agree with MA's point, it's obviously not just Clifford that is invested in winning, but the more fundamental point for me is there are justifiable reasons to want to continue to build the team and put a winning product on the floor.

To be clear, I don't think it's totally unreasonable to want to tank if you've just completely given up on this team and are ready to call it a season. I just get bothered by the take that you have to be stupid or shortsighted to see value in continuing to invest in this team and trying to maximize their performance.

[316Hornets]

Ive reiterated multiple times that I don't want the players to quit or believe they can't win. I don't know why you keep repeating that.

Because you can't have it both ways. If the coach alters the rotation specifically to lose games, you can't reasonably expect the players to not notice or give the same degree of effort. Why would they? Their own coach is trying to make sure they lose.

There is simply very little chance we make the playoffs and no chance we beat Cleveland unless Lebron gets injured and misses most of the series. These moral victories we are getting right now aren't actually going to make any difference in our ability to win a playoff series in the future. Picking higher in the draft, even just a couple spots, actually could make a difference.

So you are willing to roll the dice on future upside despite poor odds of meaningful improvement but unwilling to do so for current potential. We COULD help our draft status, but the likelihood of that happening is no better than us either avoiding CLE altogether in the playoffs (there is only .5 game separating 8 and 7) or having a meaningful series against CLE that allows us an opportunity to gain more playoff experience, which by the way would be MKG's first playoff appearance since 2014.

I agree with MA's point, it's obviously not just Clifford that is invested in winning, but the more fundamental point for me is there are justifiable reasons to want to continue to build the team and put a winning product on the floor.

To be clear, I don't think it's totally unreasonable to want to tank if you've just completely given up on this team and are ready to call it a season. I just get bothered by the take that you have to be stupid or shortsighted to see value in continuing to invest in this team and trying to maximize their performance.

There's pros and cons to everything. The tanking angle adds in the fact that a top 8 draft positions also comes along with a 10% chance at a top 3 pick(while not probable, it's more of a chance then the Hornets have at making the playoffs this year). So, the question comes down to, do you take the 5% chance on making the playoffs or the 10% chance on getting a top 3 superstar? Which one is going to have more of an impact on the franchise for the long term? And, if neither of the two occur, then at least with the tanking angle you've managed to move up spots in the draft to grab a more likely better player while with shooting for the 'moon', there's only so much these players are going to gain.

Once you're an NBA professional, you don't just decide to quit because you 'think' the coach or front office is trying to lose games. There's millions being thrown at you to play your best at every opportunity and just about every guy on this team is looking at the very least, 1 more sizable contract.

If anything, you could make a case that Clifford has been tanking this whole time by playing Roberts over Weber. The world may never know.

[amcoolio]

I get not wanting to tank and not seeing why the tankers want to tank. I am just sick of this organization selling the fanbase moral victories and excuses. We keep being had, year after year. I don't know how you can't see why longtime fans like myself are frustrated.

[CatgutStitches]

I get not wanting to tank and not seeing why the tankers want to tank. I am just sick of this organization selling the fanbase moral victories and excuses. We keep being had, year after year. I don't know how you can't see why longtime fans like myself are frustrated.

I get why youre frustrated, I just think its misplaced. I have been a fan of the Hornets since 1988 and we have never been consistently good in that time period...but how many teams have? If you really think about it, apart from the hallowed teams that can rebuild based on legacy and teams that get lucky and get a game-changer or 2 in the draft, how many teams have been consistently good? I never freak out because its simply a crap-shoot as to whether you get good or not...assuming of course your front office and coaching isnt completely inept (like many of the teams some of you want us to emulate).

We arent the Spurs, so Ill take what I can get...I enjoy cheering for my teams to win games, and while a young prospect can certainly be exciting this isnt NBA2k and they are more likely to wash out than become a superstar. As Ive said in other threads, at this point in the season I am fine with them losing games, because the playoffs are pretty unlikely, but I will NEVER be upset when we win a game. If Ive learned something in MANY years of being a hardcore sports fan its that teams/players need to learn how to win, it doesnt just come with talent...the more wins the merrier as far as Im concerned.

[amcoolio]

I get not wanting to tank and not seeing why the tankers want to tank. I am just sick of this organization selling the fanbase moral victories and excuses. We keep being had, year after year. I don't know how you can't see why longtime fans like myself are frustrated.

I get why youre frustrated, I just think its misplaced. I have been a fan of the Hornets since 1988 and we have never been consistently good in that time period...but how many teams have? If you really think about it, apart from the hallowed teams that can rebuild based on legacy and teams that get lucky and get a game-changer or 2 in the draft, how many teams have been consistently good? I never freak out because its simply a crap-shoot as to whether you get good or not...assuming of course your front office and coaching isnt completely inept (like many of the teams some of you want us to emulate).

We arent the Spurs, so Ill take what I can get...I enjoy cheering for my teams to win games, and while a young prospect can certainly be exciting this isnt NBA2k and they are more likely to wash out than become a superstar. As Ive said in other threads, at this point in the season I am fine with them losing games, because the playoffs are pretty unlikely, but I will NEVER be upset when we win a game. If Ive learned something in MANY years of being a hardcore sports fan its that teams/players need to learn how to win, it doesnt just come with talent...the more wins the merrier as far as Im concerned.

We came in the league with Miami, and since then Orlando, Minnesota, Toronto, and Vancouver/Memphis... and all of those teams have had much greater success than the Hornets. They've all had superstars. Actually I think every single team in the NBA has made the conference finals (besides Memphis and New Orleans maybe? but they have had several years of 50 wins in a row)...the Hornets haven't been to the 2nd round since 2001, so over 15 years ago. Every team in the division has had a period of top 2 in the east and Finals contender over the past 10 years, even the freaking Hawks.

We are talking decades here, not years. I get that its hard to build a great NBA team, but surely at some point in 15 years you can have a team that can compete with the rest in your conference. We haven't even won a playoff series!

And the future is just as bleak as the past....we are capped out, with little room to do anything major via trades or free agency, and we are on the tail end of the lottery where talent drops off just enough, plus we suck at drafting with this current regime and certainly don't have any faith to pull out diamonds in the rough.

Am I a jaded, cynical fan? Yes. I hate that too, because I am generally an optimist. I still think Frank can become the superstar we need and I'll keep hoping that will be the case. But I'm tired with the bull****. The same excuses fed by the front office and coaching staff. Its really hard to watch the games nowadays.


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I will say I wish we won that 2001 playoff series against the Bucks. I think Baron would have handled Iverson and we would've been in the finals, and who knows what would have happened with the future of that franchise.

[fatlever]

Clippers have never made conference finals, but yeah, point remains the same.