Positional Value

[JMAC3]

In today’s NBA there is a lot of talk about how the league is heading towards a direction where there are no positions. While I think the lines are more blurred then ever about what a player can and is asked to do, positions are still a thing.

Most teams are still using a point guard who handles the ball and runs majority of pick and rolls. Point guards are relied on to score a lot more in todays NBA.

Most teams are starting a center to protect the rim and rebound. The great teams have a center who can even shoot and space the floor on top of this.

Most teams have moved to a stretch 4 rather than a traditional power 4, who can space floor and switch some on defense.

The wings are really close and the lines are muddled. Out of the 2 guys you need at least one guy who can shoot, one can initiate offense, one who can play defense. The great teams are the ones where both players can do at least 2 of these things.

(Hornets struggle because this.. Batum initiates offense but struggles to shoot or defend, MKG plays good defense, but doesn’t shoot or make plays well). Warriors have Klay who shoots and defends, KD who does all 3. Cavs have LeBron who does all three although defense is iffy now, Jr who shoots and defends. Houston has Harden who shoots and playmaker, Ariza who defends and shoots. Celtics have Brown and Tatum who both do somewhat of all 3.

What positions do you place the most value on if you were building a team from scratch? What position do you feel like you can wait on and get away with a cheaper or worse player at?

I think as a team who is looking to rebuild we need to place some value on skillsets and positional value.


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[fatlever]

I guess the idea is to get as many guys who are long for their position, can shoot, defend, and initiate plays for themselves and others on the perimeter. The more of those boxes you check the better the players going to be in the more valuable the player will be in today's NBA. Like you said our problem is we don't have any players who check more than one box at a time.

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[JMAC3]

You don’t value any one position more?


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[yosemiteben]

Good question, interested to read discussion on this.

[fatlever]

You don’t value any one position more?


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i guess a wing who can pass, initiate pnr, shoot 3s and defend, while also having length (or as many as possible of that list). That would be my priority over PG and bigs. basically, i'd go giannis/harden/simmons/durant types over AD, KAT, cousins, porzingis, jokics types or westbrook, paul, lillard, kemba types.

left curry and lebron out because they are freaks of nature.

[LofJ]

I'm with fatlever here. I prefer players with wing size that can do it all (pass, shoot, attack the basket, and defend multiple positions) to smaller guards that can do the same. That said I don't think there has ever been a big that can do all of the above things at an elite level. Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, and Anthony Davis come the closest, so they are incredibly rare. If someone like them was available I'd strongly consider taking them over a wing with similar abilities because of how hard they are to find.

The best thing about do it all wings is that they don't need anyone to maximize their potential. Even transcendent bigs like Duncan, Davis, and Garnett weren't able to maximize their impact without playing with a good primary playmaker. If you can make thing happen with or without the ball and have an impact on defense at the same time you will make everyone on the team look better.

[HornetJail]

I think you have to have a star ball-handler to succeed right now, possibly even two. Warriors have Curry and Durant and even Draymond as a big time playmaker. Rockets have Harden and CP3 surrounded by shooters and a PnR big, Cavs have LeBron, Cs will have Kyrie back.

That is why we will never go anywhere without Kemba unless we draft one better than him. Unless you have a coaching wizard like Stevens or Popovich, you will never be a contender without a star ball-handler. In most cases this era, two star ball-handlers are needed.

If I was building a team from the ground up, I'd model it just like the Rockets have. You do whatever it takes to get your star ball-handler/star (spend years and years playing the asset game and pounce on the opportunity when it comes), and then put another ball-handler on the court with him, who can play half the game with him, and the other half with the second unit so that you always have a guy on the ball who can put major pressure on the defense. Pair them with an athletic big who doesn't need to be very skilled, but just scores off lobs, screens, rebounds, and plays decent defense. Fill out the rest of the roster with shooters and defenders, prioritizing those who can do both.

This is why I'm not as pessimistic about our future as some of you are. Can Kemba and Monk be our own diet CP3/Harden? Is Zeller good enough to be our diet Capela if he stays healthy? Can we fill out the rest of the roster with better fitting role players to suit that style of play? Are our new coach and front office aware that this is the way the league is trending and willing to build a team and gameplan that plays that way?

The answers to all of those questions are not solid yes's, but they are closer to yes than no. I don't expect this team to ever become Houston as currently constructed, but a poor man's version is within reach with smart GMing and coaching, and that's far more appetizing than watching this team wallow in mediocrity or tank for the next 5 years only to become the Magic, Kings, or Suns.

tl;dr version: two ball handlers, and athletic big who screens and plays defense, surrounded by players who shoot 3s and play defense. Positions aren't important, as long as you check all the boxes

[JMAC3]

Seems like wings are in lead right now, what position do you not value?


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[LofJ]

Seems like wings are in lead right now, what position do you not value?


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Scoring bigs that can't defend like Kanter have a place on a roster, but in a reserve role being paid around $8 million a year. I don't value players like him, Jefferson, and Okafor anymore than that. And even then I'd prefer to have a guard that can score without help like Lou Williams or Eric Gordon as opposed to the above guys.

And on the flip side point guards that can't shoot like Elfrid Payton, Kris Dunn, Mudiay, MCW, and (if Philly's worst nightmare comes true) Fultz are in a similar category for me.

Dunn improved a fair bit shooting wise in his 2nd season, so there's still hope for him. And it's way too early to write off Fultz, but if they can't improve their shooting and they aren't bringing elite playmaking and good defense to the table like Wall and to a lesser extent Rubio they will eventually become NBA journeymen and be out of the league. Dunn is in the perfect environment to develop (much like Kemba was with us), he's likely going to get the time he needs to become a serviceable shooter. I don't know if I can say the same for Fultz, if he can't rapidly improve his shooting he and his agent need to push for a trade as soon as possible.

[fatlever]

If you are a big man you better be able to defend the three-point line, shoot threes, or set pics for those that can shoot threes and have a minimum level of Rim protection. If you can't do these things I don't want you on the roster.

Other than that I just prefer to stay away from any one-dimensional players except for guys who excel at catch and shoot threes because you can always stick those dudes in the corner to space the floor.

Problem is we have a ton of one-dimensional guys and we also have a big that doesn't fit the things I'm looking for who's also making 20 + million.

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[LofJ]

I actually think this team is fairly well constructed for the modern NBA with the exception of the frontcourt.

MKG has some mental hang ups, but he isn't one dimensional. He can grab rebounds and initiate the break, he can slash to the rim, and he can hit midrange shots. The players I would categorize as one dimensional are Marvin, Frank, and Dwight. If they aren't shooting well (Marvin and Frank) or dominating the boards (Dwight) they aren't contributing much to winning basketball. Marvin is a passable defender, so he isn't a complete minus when he's not shooting well, but I'd be lying if I said he was a dynamic player. Frank has the potential to be a dynamic player but his shooting and playmaking (the thing I was most excited about with him) have been too inconsistent. And he isn't a good enough defender to make up for it.

The team needs to find an upgrade over Marvin/Frank and get another unselfish big like Cody to unlock the full potential of the rest of the roster.

[JMAC3]

How would you guys rank this player type in terms of most important to you to least.

Point guard who can score and run pick and roll.

Wing who can shoot and initiate offense.

Wing who can shoot and play defense.

Wing who can play defense and playmake.

Stretch 4 who can catch and shoot and switch on defense.

Center who can rebound and protect rim.



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[JMAC3]

Assuming one decision does not build onto next... just in terms of starting a team.





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[fatlever]

A wing who can defend and make plays

A wing who can shoot and make plays

A point guard who can score and run pick-and-roll

A wing who can shoot and defend

A center who can protect the rim and rebound

A stretch for who can shoot and switch on defense

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[HornetJail]

A wing who can defend and make plays

A wing who can shoot and make plays

A point guard who can score and run pick-and-roll

A wing who can shoot and defend

A center who can protect the rim and rebound

A stretch for who can shoot and switch on defense

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Wing who can shoot and make plays

PG who can score and run PnR

Stretch 4 who can shoot and switch on D

Wing who can shoot and defend

Center rim protector and rebounder

Wing who can defend and make plays

[316Hornets]

Give me a guy that can play 3-5 that can shoot and defend

[SWedd523]

A dominant wing scorer.

Show me a great team who doesn't have a wing who can handle the ball and get buckets in volume on good efficiency. Most have two.

Based God Brad Stevens coached teams notwithstanding (and even they have Brown/Tatum who don't seem far from that designation).

Cavs LeBron (and Love)
Warriors Durant (on top of Curry and Klay)
Rockets Harden (and Paul)
Raptors DeRozan (and Lowry)
Celtics have like 4 dudes who could average 20ppg
Spurs with Kawhi (and Aldridge)
Sixers have what could be the best player of of the next decade in Simmons and Embiid is an all NBA talent
I guess Portland is the anomaly with two dominant guards with no wings, and you saw how they got whomped in the playoffs.

We will never be contenders with Batum and MKG showing no desire to score.

[BringBackMcBob]

Wing with length, shooting, and defense is definitely the most valuable in my opinion. Most of the elite players are anywhere from 6'4-6'9 and if you have a lengthy wing player to stick on a Westbrook or Butler that slows down the entire offense of the opposing team.

A quick stretch 4 type player is next for me to stick the big men that move around and can handle the ball, which we are seeing more of every year (Jokic, Towns, AD, Embiid). Plus, that guy will space the floor offensively to let the slashers and playmakers drive to the basket and have a bail out option as the defense collapses on them.

Rim protectors are still just as valuable today as they were in the past. Look at the difference Gobert makes to the Jazz when he plays. They make the paint an absolute nightmare for guards.

PG's are a dime a dozen these days but are still super valuable, it's just there not as rare as the 3-D wings and stretch 4's that truly make an impact.

[316Hornets]

Wing with length, shooting, and defense is definitely the most valuable in my opinion. Most of the elite players are anywhere from 6'4-6'9 and if you have a lengthy wing player to stick on a Westbrook or Butler that slows down the entire offense of the opposing team.

A quick stretch 4 type player is next for me to stick the big men that move around and can handle the ball, which we are seeing more of every year (Jokic, Towns, AD, Embiid). Plus, that guy will space the floor offensively to let the slashers and playmakers drive to the basket and have a bail out option as the defense collapses on them.

Rim protectors are still just as valuable today as they were in the past. Look at the difference Gobert makes to the Jazz when he plays. They make the paint an absolute nightmare for guards.

PG's are a dime a dozen these days but are still super valuable, it's just there not as rare as the 3-D wings and stretch 4's that truly make an impact.

Yes, the NBA is trending towards having lengthy players taking uncontested shots. The NBA has made it so soft that guys like Durant are able to put on a shooting showcase that would not have been possible in the past. All you need to be able to succeed in this league is be a good shooter, floor general, and guard multiple positions. Giannis and Durant are going to be the top of every team's scouting research. Michael Porter Jr. could be a guy that could handle a lot of responsibility I think.

[JMAC3]

Really hope JB plays Batum at the 3 going forward. In a league that is trying to fit more ball handlers and passers on the court, we seemed to do the opposite under Cliff.

Playing Batum at the 2 and Mkg at 3 along with Marvin at 4 is making it so we have 1 extra ball handler on court with Kemba. Cliff seemed more worried about size then skill.

Most teams are trying to have 3-4 ball handlers on court at once. Think golden state with steph, KD, Draymond, Livingston, Iggy...

By playing Batum at the 3 you open an extra ball handler spot at the 2 (monk, second pg, Lamb). Then Batum is relied on less and he doesn’t have to force it.


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