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Scarence Terrence: The Terry Rozier Thread

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Re: Scarence Terrence: The Terry Rozier Thread 

Post#381 » by amcoolio » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:25 am

BigRedDog wrote:Hey guys off the jump I'll just say I'm a big Terry Rozier fan(hence the username). But that doesnt affect what im about to say this is just honest:

1) The Big Red Dog can play man. Stud on the ball defender. Offensively he's not the pretzel flavored M&M's or anything but he's not just some bland overrated manufactured sugar like Mike & Ikes either. This is a guy who plays defense with the Intensity of Ten Cities.

2) I saw someone mention theyd rather have guys who are practically out of the league like Emanuela Mudiay and Elfrid Payton.... okay man... that reminded me of this kid growing up who said Joe Kleine was better than Rony Seikaly. Don't be afraid of the man just because he's good looking.

3) Did anyone miss the Eastern Conference playoffs the year before last? The guy put the team on his back on multiple occasions. When the playoffs start you need a guy who can defend his position, get tough like nuggets when you overcook 'em, rebound, play in the halfcourt, and won't get rattled by a purple shirt guy, Drake, or Malcolm X in the front row. Some guys are in the Dawg Pound and other Dogs get buried in the Ground. There's a bunch of movies about Dogs. K-9 Cop, Milo & Otis, and All Dawgs go to Heaven. But this isn't a movie. This ain't that fellas. When the tide goes out you see who aint got no swimming trunks on. When the postseason rolls up Terrry ain't gonna run 'n hide Terry will be there baby. Terry aint Scared.

4) Last but not least. Down the stretch of big games I need you to chant. Whether its at the game, uptown, or at home watching the game. I wanna hear you. Let me hear the cannons.

BIG RED DOG. BIG RED DOG. BIG RED DOG.

Let's get it.



Hey Terry, welcome to the board. So cool of a player to post. Anyway, I think you are on the right track, just shoot 3's non-stop for the next three months, you need to be able to shoot efficiently
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Re: Scarence Terrence: The Terry Rozier Thread 

Post#382 » by MasterIchiro » Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:44 pm

Yeah, so nice of Terry to join us. Kemba never posted in here. You're off to a good start, Terry.
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Re: Scarence Terrence: The Terry Rozier Thread 

Post#383 » by Vanderbilt_Grad » Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:33 am

BigRedDog wrote:BIG RED DOG. BIG RED DOG. BIG RED DOG.

I find it somewhat ironic that we used to call Clifford Big Red Dog on this board.
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Re: Scarence Terrence: The Terry Rozier Thread 

Post#384 » by BigRedDog » Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:40 am

Vanderbilt_Grad wrote:
BigRedDog wrote:BIG RED DOG. BIG RED DOG. BIG RED DOG.

I find it somewhat ironic that we used to call Clifford Big Red Dog on this board.



That's how Terry got the nickname. He was nicknamed after Clifford, the greatest player in Louisville history. Everyone used to just assume he was his father so they started calling him the Big Red Dog.
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Re: Scarence Terrence: The Terry Rozier Thread 

Post#385 » by Snidely FC » Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:12 pm

Well, here's what bothers me: the team finally evidenced some fiscal logic by not paying Kemba Walker a contract the team would later regret...but instead of continuing with newfound monetary restraint, the team splashed 19 large on an essentially unproven player

You tell us Rozier is da bomb (I hope you are right by the way) but you're talking about a four year vet who as a bench point guard has a field goal average below 40%

Rozier boosters point to the 2018 playoffs as proof of how great he will be with starter's minutes. That was a 16 game run two seasons ago. Bismack Biyombo got his contract based on one playoff run with Toronto.

So, color me wait and see.

The opportunity costs for this move are significant. You argue Rozier is better than any one other free agent we could have signed. I counter with, we could have signed 2 free agents instead. Not just Emmanuel Mudiay or Delon Wright, but both. Build via depth, rather than turn again to hero ball and expect one player to be the answer.

We can differ on a guy like Emmanuel Mudiay, for instance. He looked an improved player to me last year. He had a 45 FG% last year. At 6'5 adds a different dimension (size) to our PG depth, being bigger and younger than Rozier...but the main thing is he signed at UTA for the veteran minimum. You can say Rozier will look better as a starter. Well so did Mudiay last year, and so will Delon Wright, also 6'5, in DAL, who will be getting less than half of Rozier. Low risk high reward in other words. The type of cheap gamble the team should be taking right now.

There are other risks with Rozier. By paying him like the team's best player, they didn't just sign for Rozier they gave him the keys to the team...and the green light to play hero ball. That wasn't going to happen if you, say, signed Mudiay + Delon Wright. There is a much higher chance that Rozier's usage impacts the development of Miles, PJ, Bacon, etc. Our young guys were the silver lining with Kemba's exit. Is Rozier the one to unlock their talent or will he be a ball hog to their detriment? Lastly, going forward, this team ought to have top 5 picks, maybe even Top 3 picks, the next few years. If bpa is a stud PG - one whose upside is Conference Championship not limping into the 8 spot - do we pass him over because we have Rozier?

I'm not saying all of the above will happen, but how do we know it won't? Kupchak said adding Rozier is like adding a lottery pick. In a way he is right. He has flashed talent. There are all the same risks you get with Rozier that you get with a lottery pick, but as others have already noted lottery picks don't get paid $19M.

I mean, I hope Rozier works out, I really do. You seem to know him as a player @bigreddog, and hearing you tell how great he is gives me more optimism. But despite all the above opportunity costs, the real crux of the problem to me is that the team asked its fans to be cool with not paying the franchise's goat, FINALLY evidencing good fiscal and roster management, but instead of continuing to show caution, they immediately turned around and asked us to swallow giving Terry Rozier the biggest contract on the roster ($58M v $52M remaining on Batum contract). Its like, they get it!...no, wait, they don't get it! And I'm so sick of that. It's head snapping, and disappointing because it feels like more of the same.
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Re: Scarence Terrence: The Terry Rozier Thread 

Post#386 » by MasterIchiro » Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:45 pm

Snidely FC wrote:Well, here's what bothers me: the team finally evidenced some fiscal logic by not paying Kemba Walker a contract the team would later regret...but instead of continuing with newfound monetary restraint, the team splashed 19 large on an essentially unproven player

You tell us Rozier is da bomb (I hope you are right by the way) but you're talking about a four year vet who as a bench point guard has a field goal average below 40%

Rozier boosters point to the 2018 playoffs as proof of how great he will be with starter's minutes. That was a 16 game run two seasons ago. Bismack Biyombo got his contract based on one playoff run with Toronto.

So, color me wait and see.

The opportunity costs for this move are significant. You argue Rozier is better than any one other free agent we could have signed. I counter with, we could have signed 2 free agents instead. Not just Emmanuel Mudiay or Delon Wright, but both. Build via depth, rather than turn again to hero ball and expect one player to be the answer.

We can differ on a guy like Emmanuel Mudiay, for instance. He looked an improved player to me last year. He had a 45 FG% last year. At 6'5 adds a different dimension (size) to our PG depth, being bigger and younger than Rozier...but the main thing is he signed at UTA for the veteran minimum. You can say Rozier will look better as a starter. Well so did Mudiay last year, and so will Delon Wright, also 6'5, in DAL, who will be getting less than half of Rozier. Low risk high reward in other words. The type of cheap gamble the team should be taking right now.

There are other risks with Rozier. By paying him like the team's best player, they didn't just sign for Rozier they gave him the keys to the team...and the green light to play hero ball. That wasn't going to happen if you, say, signed Mudiay + Delon Wright. There is a much higher chance that Rozier's usage impacts the development of Miles, PJ, Bacon, etc. Our young guys were the silver lining with Kemba's exit. Is Rozier the one to unlock their talent or will he be a ball hog to their detriment? Lastly, going forward, this team ought to have top 5 picks, maybe even Top 3 picks, the next few years. If bpa is a stud PG - one whose upside is Conference Championship not limping into the 8 spot - do we pass him over because we have Rozier?

I'm not saying all of the above will happen, but how do we know it won't? Kupchak said adding Rozier is like adding a lottery pick. In a way he is right. He has flashed talent. There are all the same risks you get with Rozier that you get with a lottery pick, but as others have already noted lottery picks don't get paid $19M.

I mean, I hope Rozier works out, I really do. You seem to know him as a player @bigreddog, and hearing you tell how great he is gives me more optimism. But despite all the above opportunity costs, the real crux of the problem to me is that the team asked its fans to be cool with not paying the franchise's goat, FINALLY evidencing good fiscal judgement, but instead of continuing to show financial caution, they immediately turned around and asked us to swallow giving Terry Rozier the biggest contract on the roster ($58M v $52M remaining on Batum contract). Its like, they get it!...no, wait, they don't get it! And I'm so sick of that. It's head snapping, and disappointing because it feels like more of the same.


+1 for the civil, compelling post here.

I would hope Mitch Kupchak would think to select the stud PG, groom for one year, don't overload with minutes as a rookie. Then shop Rozier as an expiring contract.

Rozier still has upside like a rookie just coming into the league. It's not based on college but on those 16 games. It's the equivalent of a conference tourney and NCAA Championship run. That will suggest upside for a rookie. Rozier is inexperienced as a full time starter thus we don't know what we have. Compare to say MKG who is the same age as Terry but has started and played consistently 6-7 years. We know what he is.

While Mudiay may involve his teammates, will he keep a team in games and tough out wins and if he can't do that will losing and losing big do more to crush morale and stifle development? He's a backup right now.

Furthermore, Rozier works overtime in the gym. He strikes me as someone committed to doing what it takes to win. I can't envision a nightmare scenario where he defies JB, hogs the ball and sabotages the whole team system. He comes across coachable.

As for 4th quarter close games, it will be nice to cheat and sneak Monk out there while Rozier guards the shooting guard. We didn't have that luxury last year, thus Kemba hero ball. I don't think teams will be able to suffocate Rozier and I anticipate some plays for Monk, also Bacon in closing minutes.
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Re: Scarence Terrence: The Terry Rozier Thread 

Post#387 » by BigRedDog » Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:09 pm

Snidely FC wrote:Well, here's what bothers me: the team finally evidenced some fiscal logic by not paying Kemba Walker a contract the team would later regret...but instead of continuing with newfound monetary restraint, the team splashed 19 large on an essentially unproven player

You tell us Rozier is da bomb (I hope you are right by the way) but you're talking about a four year vet who as a bench point guard has a field goal average below 40%

Rozier boosters point to the 2018 playoffs as proof of how great he will be with starter's minutes. That was a 16 game run two seasons ago. Bismack Biyombo got his contract based on one playoff run with Toronto.

So, color me wait and see.

The opportunity costs for this move are significant. You argue Rozier is better than any one other free agent we could have signed. I counter with, we could have signed 2 free agents instead. Not just Emmanuel Mudiay or Delon Wright, but both. Build via depth, rather than turn again to hero ball and expect one player to be the answer.

We can differ on a guy like Emmanuel Mudiay, for instance. He looked an improved player to me last year. He had a 45 FG% last year. At 6'5 adds a different dimension (size) to our PG depth, being bigger and younger than Rozier...but the main thing is he signed at UTA for the veteran minimum. You can say Rozier will look better as a starter. Well so did Mudiay last year, and so will Delon Wright, also 6'5, in DAL, who will be getting less than half of Rozier. Low risk high reward in other words. The type of cheap gamble the team should be taking right now.

There are other risks with Rozier. By paying him like the team's best player, they didn't just sign for Rozier they gave him the keys to the team...and the green light to play hero ball. That wasn't going to happen if you, say, signed Mudiay + Delon Wright. There is a much higher chance that Rozier's usage impacts the development of Miles, PJ, Bacon, etc. Our young guys were the silver lining with Kemba's exit. Is Rozier the one to unlock their talent or will he be a ball hog to their detriment? Lastly, going forward, this team ought to have top 5 picks, maybe even Top 3 picks, the next few years. If bpa is a stud PG - one whose upside is Conference Championship not limping into the 8 spot - do we pass him over because we have Rozier?

I'm not saying all of the above will happen, but how do we know it won't? Kupchak said adding Rozier is like adding a lottery pick. In a way he is right. He has flashed talent. There are all the same risks you get with Rozier that you get with a lottery pick, but as others have already noted lottery picks don't get paid $19M.

I mean, I hope Rozier works out, I really do. You seem to know him as a player @bigreddog, and hearing you tell how great he is gives me more optimism. But despite all the above opportunity costs, the real crux of the problem to me is that the team asked its fans to be cool with not paying the franchise's goat, FINALLY evidencing good fiscal and roster management, but instead of continuing to show caution, they immediately turned around and asked us to swallow giving Terry Rozier the biggest contract on the roster ($58M v $52M remaining on Batum contract). Its like, they get it!...no, wait, they don't get it! And I'm so sick of that. It's head snapping, and disappointing because it feels like more of the same.


I don't have a strong take on your post. I mostly agree with the sentiment, though i prob disagree with a few things like the idea of turning it over to a failed project like Mudiay or a scoring guard like Delon Wright (a player i like, but isnt a true point guard at all).

Is $19m a slight overpay, perhaps.. I think we all agree we'd be happier with more like 4yr/$60-$64m... but the money isnt all that important here as we aren't going to contend during this 3 year window anyway... and we did structure it declining which will make him relatively movable after 1.5 or 2 years and very movable after 2.5 years if we decide to go that route.

With all our expiring contracts we are probably going to look to flip them into NBA players... or alternatively we may try to chase free agency... or we may try to develop young talent through the draft...or most likely some combination of all three...

In order to do that we're going to need real NBA players, particularly at the PG position. You can't even run a system and promote healthy offensive habits for other young players if you don't have a real live NBA PG...

So now we have a coach from a successful franchise and a Point Guard from a successful franchise...that doesn't necessarily mean either will succeed here... but it does mean we've created an environment where at least some people have a clue how successful teams operate.

Thats a lot different then just Drafting the next Andrew Wiggins or hiring the next Sam Vincent or whatever the heck our other plans were.

ANd i think if you really think about it, Terry Rozier nearly led his team to the NBA Finals about 14 months ago. So we've already seen that you can win fairly big in this league with a guy like him at the helm. What was his supporting cast? Jaylen Brown/Jason Tatum/Al Horford? So two solid, but not spectacular lottery picks, and a ~2nd tier free agent? With rotation guys like Aaron Baynes, Semi Ojeheyele, Marcus Morris and Marcus Smart?

This is a guy who played some big-time winning basketball. No, he's not gonna light up the league like Kyrie Irving or Kemba Walker in the regular season... but you could ARGUE that he's better equipped for postseason style basketball than either of those guys...and that his strengths and style of play somewhat offsets some of that talent disparity...and that by paying him HALF as much as those two guys you can afford to put talent around him on the wings and find a crafty veteran like Horford to help run the offense and anchor the defense.

Like would anyone be SHOCKED if we were able to parlay some of the expiring (or soon to be expiring) contracts of Marvin, Zeller, MKG, Biyombo, and Batum for a few decent players from teams looking to rebuild? Would anyone be shocked if we landed one decent free agent on par with Al Horford (Im not talking about kevin durant/lebron type pipe dreams)? Would anyone be shocked if guys like Bridges/Washington develop into useful rotation players? Would anyone be shocked if we draft in the top 5 during the next season or two and land someone as good as Tatum or Brown?

I dont understand why we have to tear it down to the baseboards and win 8 games next season to "rebuild" especially now that they've changed the lottery odds. It's okay to take a chance on a young, promising player.... In fact i think its a much better risk than maxing out guys like Andrew Wiggins or Devin Booker.... or trading for trash like Brandon Ingram....

The truth of the matter is that not all good teams got there by tearing it down Sam Hinkie style... im okay with that strategy, but it does make basketball completely unwatchable for 3-5 years..... there are a LOT of teams who have taken on reclamation projects like Chauncey Billups and Ben Wallace...paired them with a decent lottery pick like Tayshaun Prince, traded for Rip Hamilton and Rasheed Wallace and then filled in the gaps with solid rotation vets like corliss williamson and young foreigners like mehmet okur....


I could absolutely envision Rozier running the point on a winning team. Because I've seen it.

I can't see that with Emanuel Mudiay. I can see him putting up stats (and not even particularly good ones) on 17 win Knicks basement dwellers. Already Seen that too.
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Re: Scarence Terrence: The Terry Rozier Thread 

Post#388 » by Bassman » Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:31 pm

Lots of good discussion and points here guys. I knew Kemba was gone and wanted us to trade him at the deadline. I have no idea if the offers were garbage, or if MJ said no due to the stupid all-star game. Either way I think Mitch made some lemonade from a bad lemon with the sign and trade. I’m looking forward to seeing what Rozier can do, knowing this team is going to be a relative hot mess at times. Like some others I prefer putting out best young players out on the floor with Terry and seeing what they can develop together. Eventually get a high pick and perhaps a good vet or two for our expiring trash. We will know a lot more NEXT season, not after this season.
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Re: Scarence Terrence: The Terry Rozier Thread 

Post#389 » by catch20two » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:13 pm

I think it was a very bad signing. Losing Kemba for nothing would’ve been better than putting another bad contract on the books for the sake of it just because you didn’t want to lose Kemba for nothing.

I think Rozier is a solid player but I’d predict his career peak in the same category as recently retired Darren Collison and maybe slightly less than George Hill. I don’t see no all-star appearances in Rozier’s future but he can be an above average PG. So far he’s been solid but nothing above average and that’s why giving him $19M annually is a bit wild.
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Re: Scarence Terrence: The Terry Rozier Thread 

Post#390 » by KEMBAtheMETEOR » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:38 pm

catch20two wrote:I think it was a very bad signing. Losing Kemba for nothing would’ve been better than putting another bad contract on the books for the sake of it just because you didn’t want to lose Kemba for nothing.

I think Rozier is a solid player but I’d predict his career peak in the same category as recently retired Darren Collison and maybe slightly less than George Hill. I don’t see no all-star appearances in Rozier’s future but he can be an above average PG. So far he’s been solid but nothing above average and that’s why giving him $19M annually is a bit wild.

the second half of this is incredibly optimstic. I think we get a Reggie Jackson/Brandon Knight and that's it
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Re: Scarence Terrence: The Terry Rozier Thread 

Post#391 » by BigRedDog » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:43 pm

catch20two wrote:I think it was a very bad signing. Losing Kemba for nothing would’ve been better than putting another bad contract on the books for the sake of it just because you didn’t want to lose Kemba for nothing.

I think Rozier is a solid player but I’d predict his career peak in the same category as recently retired Darren Collison and maybe slightly less than George Hill. I don’t see no all-star appearances in Rozier’s future but he can be an above average PG. So far he’s been solid but nothing above average and that’s why giving him $19M annually is a bit wild.



In my opinion the best way to evaluate a player is by asking one question:

Would this guy be a guy you'd want to have on the court in an NBA Finals series?

Aka is there a role he could fulfill and do it well. To the point where you'd consider him a true asset in his role in that series... Whether that's as a starter, bench player, role player, whatever.... there are a lot of guys who had "successful" careers like Baron Davis, Stephon Marbury, Wally Sczerbiak, or Steve Francis that might individually be considered "better" players than say Terry Rozier... but would be extremely likely to fall flat on their face in their role at the highest level of competition... Rozier is a guy who could probably start for a title team... i mean we've seen him start for a legitimate contender already... i definitely do not think Boston does as well that year with a prime Baron Davis at the helm. Much like I don't think the Raptors would have traded Fred Van Vleet's contributions for any of those players I listed above. FVV is wired more like Rozier... tough defender... gritty... heady... meaty... okay enough... but you get the point he's not Matt Carroll or Eddie House or Cuttino Mobley... those are regular season guys not guys you want to have on the floor when you're playing to win Mama's Pajamas. Rozier is wired like a Stephen Jackson, Robert Horry, or Mario Chalmers... these are guys who play hard, play the right way, and make real live contributions that can be the difference in a series.

We gave him some money... but we didnt give 36 year old Chris Paiul money, or 34 year old Kyle lowry money, heck we didnt even give him cj mccollum money and we aren't even sure he's a good player and he plays SG for goodness sake...
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Re: Scarence Terrence: The Terry Rozier Thread 

Post#392 » by LofJ » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:50 pm

Playoff starter Rozier deserves the contract Mitch gave him. The question is if he can be that good during the long regular season when the games don't mean as much.
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Re: Scarence Terrence: The Terry Rozier Thread 

Post#393 » by Liver_Pooty » Thu Aug 1, 2019 3:04 am

CJ Mccollum is undoubtedly a good player.
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Re: Scarence Terrence: The Terry Rozier Thread 

Post#394 » by BigSlam » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:17 pm

He landed one of the most divisive contracts of the NBA offseason, but Terry Rozier also managed to escape the violence of Youngstown, Ohio, while watching his dad serve 21 years in prison. So don't talk to the Hornets' new PG about pressure.


https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2849414-you-dont-know-terrys-scary

Snippets:

The evening before NBA teams spent more than $3 billion in free-agent contracts in just over 24 hours, Rozier found himself with friends celebrating an impending move to the Knicks. He had decided to bet on himself on a one-year deal. We're about to turn New York up, his friends cheered. "A night before free agency, I was a Knick," Rozier said.


He woke up to a call at around 4 a.m. Phoenix had offered a contract. A bigger, better one. We gonna have to take that one, he thought.

The Charlotte Hornets beckoned later that day. Rozier remained inclined to accept Phoenix's bid. That was when, Rozier said, Michael Jordan, the Hornets' principal owner, intervened. "Mike was overseas, and I can just picture him probably having a cigar in his mouth and the words he told Mitch [Kupchak], the GM, was like: 'Get him over here. Do what you need to do to get him over here.'"
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Re: Scarence Terrence: The Terry Rozier Thread 

Post#395 » by fatlever » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:00 pm

So if this Rozier singing turns out to be a massive overpay we know where to put the blame.

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Re: Scarence Terrence: The Terry Rozier Thread 

Post#396 » by LofJ » Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:24 pm

Michael Jordan competed against the best organizations in the NBA in the Knicks and the Suns and came out on top.
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Re: Scarence Terrence: The Terry Rozier Thread 

Post#397 » by hotrod » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:18 pm

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Re: Scarence Terrence: The Terry Rozier Thread 

Post#398 » by catch20two » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:54 pm

BigSlam wrote:
He landed one of the most divisive contracts of the NBA offseason, but Terry Rozier also managed to escape the violence of Youngstown, Ohio, while watching his dad serve 21 years in prison. So don't talk to the Hornets' new PG about pressure.


https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2849414-you-dont-know-terrys-scary

Snippets:

The evening before NBA teams spent more than $3 billion in free-agent contracts in just over 24 hours, Rozier found himself with friends celebrating an impending move to the Knicks. He had decided to bet on himself on a one-year deal. We're about to turn New York up, his friends cheered. "A night before free agency, I was a Knick," Rozier said.


He woke up to a call at around 4 a.m. Phoenix had offered a contract. A bigger, better one. We gonna have to take that one, he thought.

The Charlotte Hornets beckoned later that day. Rozier remained inclined to accept Phoenix's bid. That was when, Rozier said, Michael Jordan, the Hornets' principal owner, intervened. "Mike was overseas, and I can just picture him probably having a cigar in his mouth and the words he told Mitch [Kupchak], the GM, was like: 'Get him over here. Do what you need to do to get him over here.'"

Reads like which team was dumb and desperate enough to overpay.

MJ said “hold my beer”.
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Re: Scarence Terrence: The Terry Rozier Thread 

Post#399 » by Radu_Hornets » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:55 pm

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Re: Scarence Terrence: The Terry Rozier Thread 

Post#400 » by BigSlam » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:05 pm

fatlever wrote:So if this Rozier singing turns out to be a massive overpay we know where to put the blame.

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Not sure about that. I read the piece as Rozier saying he could PICTURE Jordan saying that, not that Jordan DID say that.

If anything I think it just shows there was a market for Rozier and we didn't just arbitrarily throw money at him.

Would love to know what the 1 year Knicks deal was worth though.
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