Frank Kaminsky #2 - Not Extended (UFA)

[yosemiteben]

What skill does Frank have that is not incorporated into our offense or defense? What weakness does he have that he is being forced to expose?

He is supposed to have range. He is supposed to be a primary playmaker. He is supposed to have ball skills.

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

Ben did you really read Snidely's post? I understand that this is the Frank thread, but you keep trying to laser focus on Frank when that's not really the primary focus of what everyone else is talking about. When we say ABCDE and you keep asking about the curve on the B ... it's not really the same conversation.

And I'm really really trying to not attack you, but your post is a perfect example of what I find frustrating about some of the things you put here. Snidely gave some great examples. Here you didn't just state that you disagree, or give counterexamples to support your opinion, or build out your own argument ... instead you instead ask people who have already spoken to give you yet more justification for what they have stated. It feels like you are constantly demanding more ... and the subtext to that is that what we've posted is not sufficient / valid / etc. It's a putdown. It feels like an attack, not an attempt at conversation.

[yosemiteben]

We're in the Frank thread.

I said I agree with the gist of the post, but disagree as applied to Frank.

I said we build our second unit around Frank's skill set. I mentioned specific skills he is supposed to have that we incorporate.

What do you want from me?

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

IDK. I almost came back in to delete that post. I'm just tired. I come here frustrated and get more frustrated after interacting here.

[yosemiteben]

I just think that Frank currently is a major disappointment, and I don't think that's Cliff's fault.

Frank has seen crunch time minutes since his rookie season. Feels inconsistent to say Cliff's not flexible, doesn't give young guys an opportunity to grow, and doesn't play guys to their strengths, when we've been trying to do that with Frank since he was drafted.

When Frank looks good there's no doubt about how he can impact a game and no one says he's being used the wrong way. His problem is consistency, not a system that misapplies his skillset.

[bravor]

The main problem with Frank starts with defense and ends with defense. You can say "he should be played at C" then after a few games, you will read "hell, why they don't just play him as a pf, he is not strong enough in the post". Sometimes, he has good attitude and focus, but he gets lost way too easily on the pnr and even his post defense is really weak.
Frank might be above average on his fundamentals (and that is the case), he is just too unconsistent offensively to hide his liabilities.

And it's even worst when you think about the whole bench. Basically you have to hide the pf and the sg spot with the roster material the Hornets have : Batum/Lamb and Frank/Marvin (who is better than Frank but not that great in the post too).
This team was legit when they could run the bench with at least one good defensive guard (Lin) and one above average center (Cody). Losing Lin was the first blow (not saying he could have stayed, he wanted to be a starter and rightfully but i would really enjoy his come back if he recovered his mobility/motor) and losing Cody for extended time was each time the final blow (since there is NO legit third option at C, even with Frank).

Frank had his chance, he was one of the bright side in the play offs two years ago (mostly for his agressive plays, dribble drive against Miami) and last year for the post all star period (in a losing effort..). This season he has been horrible for the beginning of the season, arguably worst than Monk at pg. And since mid december approx., he is having average to good games with some really poor ones in between. Worst, he never stepped up during Cody's rehab.
i don't like losing assets for nothing, but the problem right now is that there are more chances he remains the same player than finally figuring out how to hide his weaknesses and find his groove offensively. And he might still have value in the league (that remains to be seen).

Frank is likable, i won't question his personnality. But it's not what this team needs, especially in terms of toughness. Unless you decide to move on from Batum or Lamb (one has to go, this is just obvious) and get a good two way combo or sg that make it much easier to hide Frank in defense.
This team really needs another (or a true) 3D that can play from the bench too.

[Lwcasu]

The main problem with Frank starts with defense and ends with defense. You can say "he should be played at C" then after a few games, you will read "hell, why they don't just play him as a pf, he is not strong enough in the post". Sometimes, he has good attitude and focus, but he gets lost way too easily on the pnr and even his post defense is really weak.
Frank might be above average on his fundamentals (and that is the case), he is just too unconsistent offensively to hide his liabilities.

And it's even worst when you think about the whole bench. Basically you have to hide the pf and the sg spot with the roster material the Hornets have : Batum/Lamb and Frank/Marvin (who is better than Frank but not that great in the post too).
This team was legit when they could run the bench with at least one good defensive guard (Lin) and one above average center (Cody). Losing Lin was the first blow (not saying he could have stayed, he wanted to be a starter and rightfully but i would really enjoy his come back if he recovered his mobility/motor) and losing Cody for extended time was each time the final blow (since there is NO legit third option at C, even with Frank).

Frank had his chance, he was one of the bright side in the play offs two years ago (mostly for his agressive plays, dribble drive against Miami) and last year for the post all star period (in a losing effort..). This season he has been horrible for the beginning of the season, arguably worst than Monk at pg. And since mid december approx., he is having average to good games with some really poor ones in between. Worst, he never stepped up during Cody's rehab.
i don't like losing assets for nothing, but the problem right now is that there are more chances he remains the same player than finally figuring out how to hide his weaknesses and find his groove offensively. And he might still have value in the league (that remains to be seen).

Frank is likable, i won't question his personnality. But it's not what this team needs, especially in terms of toughness. Unless you decide to move on from Batum or Lamb (one has to go, this is just obvious) and get a good two way combo or sg that make it much easier to hide Frank in defense.
This team really needs another (or a true) 3D that can play from the bench too.

I have to disagree. I believe his main problem is consistency. And, being a stretch "something" he needs to hit the 3 at a more consistent rate. If he did that no-one would be too negative on him.

[JDR720]

I think most people thought he would be a bad defender/rebounder, but also thought he should be a good enough shooter to at least somewhat make up for it. maybe a poor mans ryan anderson, but he isn't close to that if he shoots threes at 33%.

If he can average 12 pts on 45/38/75 while playing center i would be fine with him.

[HoopsMalone]

Frank for Thon Maker.

Well he's Australian too, so that's ok, can't see the Bucks doing it though.
Thon is a stretch 5 who can block shots and probably a better fit than Frank

I think they would. I don't think thon will be in the league in a few years. He showed some promise last year but he's one of the worst players ever this year

[Diop]

yeah my opinion has changed a fair bit since that was first posted.

[Rich4114]

I am definitely done with Frank. I want him to be good for us but his weakness is highlighted on this team in this system. On a good team that can spread it out, he would probably be a much better player. But he can’t defend and he is so anti clutch it’s ridiculous. He’s a very mental player meaning he gets in his own head and it affects his performance. If he were more confident he would be much better for us. Apparently that only happens if he’s playing in WI. Then he can dunk over Gianis apparently.

[MasterIchiro]

Just out of curiosity I wanted to see how Frank stacks up against Ryan Anderson. I think that's his ceiling. It's disappointing but not a total loss.

Anyways, Frank has shot 37% on 3-pt shots this year. Anderson is at 38% for his career. Certainly he can become a role player on a contender.

[HoopsMalone]

Frank is becoming a VERY good offensive player. His regression on defense is so disappointing though. If he ever gets it together on that end he'd be a real nice player because i think he's only going to improve offensively.

[HoopsMalone]

I get Snidely's point and can get with the sentiment, but I also think there is no reasonable argument to be made that Frank hasn't been given an opportunity to succeed. He is completely catered to with that second unit. I also don't understand the argument about Dwight as relates to Frank, since they pretty much never share the floor.

I strongly disagree that Cliff is to blame for Frank's poor play.

I also can't believe we're still taking about Biz. He is currently an end of rotation big for a tanking team and a complete non-factor. I would say we were spot on in moving on.

I don't know what the heck happened to Biz. He was DECENT for us his last season, and solid in Toronto. He's been a nightmare in Orlando. Defense isn't something that just disappears overnight for a guy with his measurements. He's an absolutely crippling contract now that he's not even a good defender.

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

Honestly don't think Biz changed ... just his situation.

Frank as a two way player would be amazing.

[catch20two]

Just out of curiosity I wanted to see how Frank stacks up against Ryan Anderson. I think that's his ceiling. It's disappointing but not a total loss.

Anyways, Frank has shot 37% on 3-pt shots this year. Anderson is at 38% for his career. Certainly he can become a role player on a contender.

Frank has actually had a better individual statistical season than Ryan Anderson this year. Of course that’s without mentioning that it’s been a down year for Anderson in terms of usage.

Frank has the skill sets to be a very useful player and that’s why I was cool with drafting him where we did but his downfall is cerebral. He’s miscast as a high BBIQ player that can pass but some of that may be coaching. I’d imagine if he played for a coach like Kerr or Stevens that preach ball movement he’d be better in that aspect. Too often to me do Frank fall victim to tunnel vision once he put the ball on the floor and it usually ends in a bad shot when he’s had teammates open.

[HoopsMalone]

Honestly don't think Biz changed ... just his situation.

Frank as a two way player would be amazing.

You probably havent seen many Magic games. He isn't even good at defense anymore

[catch20two]

Honestly don't think Biz changed ... just his situation.

Frank as a two way player would be amazing.

You probably havent seen many Magic games. He isn't even good at defense anymore

Is anybody on the Magic considered a good defender? Jonathon Simmons went from a defensive staple on the Spurs last year to one of the worst defensive wings in the league this year on the Magic.

I gotta agree with Vanderbilt on this one. The situation is what changed for Biz. I don’t know if it’s coaching scheme or Vucevic as the common denominator but Orlando has tried to load up on defensive players to no avail over the past few years.

[HoopsMalone]

Honestly don't think Biz changed ... just his situation.

Frank as a two way player would be amazing.

You probably havent seen many Magic games. He isn't even good at defense anymore

Is anybody on the Magic considered a good defender? Jonathon Simmons went from a defensive staple on the Spurs last year to one of the worst defensive wings in the league this year on the Magic.

I gotta agree with Vanderbilt on this one. The situation is what changed for Biz. I don’t know if it’s coaching scheme or Vucevic as the common denominator but Orlando has tried to load up on defensive players to no avail over the past few years.

Just trust me. Vucevic surpisingly broke out on defense this year. When he went down I made a lot of money on draftkings for a few days before everyone caught on to how bad they were defensively with biyombo instead.

Orlando does have a lot of bad defensive players but Biyombo is one of them

[catch20two]

You probably havent seen many Magic games. He isn't even good at defense anymore

Is anybody on the Magic considered a good defender? Jonathon Simmons went from a defensive staple on the Spurs last year to one of the worst defensive wings in the league this year on the Magic.

I gotta agree with Vanderbilt on this one. The situation is what changed for Biz. I don’t know if it’s coaching scheme or Vucevic as the common denominator but Orlando has tried to load up on defensive players to no avail over the past few years.

Just trust me. Vucevic surpisingly broke out on defense this year. When he went down I made a lot of money on draftkings for a few days before everyone caught on to how bad they were defensively with biyombo instead.

Orlando does have a lot of bad defensive players but Biyombo is one of them

I’m sure Serge Ibaka would agree with me that going from Orlando to Toronto was a case of the situation changing lol.