The Gordon Hayward Thread

[MasterIchiro]

Yeah...after seeing us offer Hayward $15M, I'm sure his first response is, "You know what, I should probably accept that Pacers offer. It's looking pretty reasonable!"

Props to sticking to your opinion that he's going to sign for under $10M. One track mind indeed.

The funny thing is, despite a market where the $$ to spend and the number of teams looking for top talent far exceeds the number of players available, he suggests Lance is somehow limited because he can only accept what teams are willing to pay. It's OBVIOUS they're all willing to overpay for talents right on par with Lance.

The tier is Lance + Parsons + Hayward.

Hayward got 16. Parsons got 15.

Yet magically, Lance keeps coming in around 8-10 (or Cho failed) aka Avery Bradley territory.

If Cho offers 8-10, he'll lose Lance to a team who gives him 14-16 and Mr. Know It All will be stuck with Gerald Henderson as his starting shooting guard for the second straight season.

The denial is just astonishing.

You'll see how much melanin come into play just as much as RFA overpay on this scenario my dear UConn friend. Stephenson isn't going to receive a deal over $10 million. I'm not in denial. I'm stubborn in my beliefs

Look, Hayward 16, Parsons 15.

You've got an awful lot of ground to cover to get down to 9.

The Pacers basically came in at 9 million with 44 million total guaranteed with them having the advantage of a 5 year offer and his agent says he's worth "much more". Even a match at 44 million total over 4 years earns him 11. Meanwhile his agent waited as the line of buyers has formed. In addition to the Hornets, it now includes the Celtics, Lakers, Mavericks, Bulls, Suns and potentially the Miami Heat. Heck it could even include the Cleveland Cavaliers or Atlanta Hawks.

[mrknowitall215]

The funny thing is, despite a market where the $$ to spend and the number of teams looking for top talent far exceeds the number of players available, he suggests Lance is somehow limited because he can only accept what teams are willing to pay. It's OBVIOUS they're all willing to overpay for talents right on par with Lance.

The tier is Lance + Parsons + Hayward.

Hayward got 16. Parsons got 15.

Yet magically, Lance keeps coming in around 8-10 (or Cho failed) aka Avery Bradley territory.

If Cho offers 8-10, he'll lose Lance to a team who gives him 14-16 and Mr. Know It All will be stuck with Gerald Henderson as his starting shooting guard for the second straight season.

The denial is just astonishing.

You'll see how much melanin come into play just as much as RFA overpay on this scenario my dear UConn friend. Stephenson isn't going to receive a deal over $10 million. I'm not in denial. I'm stubborn in my beliefs

Look, Hayward 16, Parsons 15.

You've got an awful lot of ground to cover to get down to 9.

The Pacers basically came in at 9 million with 44 million total guaranteed with them having the advantage of a 5 year offer and his agent says he's worth "much more". Even a match at 44 million total over 4 years earns him 11. Meanwhile his agent waited as the line of buyers has formed. In addition to the Hornets, it now includes the Celtics, Lakers, Mavericks, Bulls, Suns and potentially the Miami Heat. Heck it could even include the Cleveland Cavaliers or Atlanta Hawks.

You totally overlooked the stance of the tweeted pic I posted. Anyway, any smart GM would know that they have leverage considering the Pacers' offered deal not to give him anything over-excessively above that. Right about now though, I question how smart Cho really is though. There's street smarts and there's book smarts. There's quality over quantity, and there's supply over demand. Charlotte shouldn't offer Stephenson but maybe $1 million annually more than what Indiana offered. As of now, I'm currently leaning towards Stephenson returning to Indiana for that very offer since Charlotte hasn't made Stephenson a priority. Every player want to go where they're wanted, and the Hornets put a inferior to equal player in Hayward over him to no avail

[LofJ]

You'll see how much melanin come into play just as much as RFA overpay on this scenario my dear UConn friend. Stephenson isn't going to receive a deal over $10 million. I'm not in denial. I'm stubborn in my beliefs

Look, Hayward 16, Parsons 15.

You've got an awful lot of ground to cover to get down to 9.

The Pacers basically came in at 9 million with 44 million total guaranteed with them having the advantage of a 5 year offer and his agent says he's worth "much more". Even a match at 44 million total over 4 years earns him 11. Meanwhile his agent waited as the line of buyers has formed. In addition to the Hornets, it now includes the Celtics, Lakers, Mavericks, Bulls, Suns and potentially the Miami Heat. Heck it could even include the Cleveland Cavaliers or Atlanta Hawks.

You totally overlooked the stance of the tweeted pic I posted. Anyway, any smart GM would know that they have leverage considering the Pacers' offered deal not to give him anything over-excessively above that. Right about now though, I question how smart Cho really is though. There's street smarts and there's book smarts. There's quality over quantity, and there's supply over demand. Charlotte shouldn't offer Stephenson but maybe $1 million annually more than what Indiana offered. As of now, I'm currently leaning towards Stephenson returning to Indiana for that very offer since Charlotte hasn't made Stephenson a priority. Every player want to go where they're wanted, and the Hornets put a inferior to equal player in Hayward over him to no avail

Stephenson has been charged with sexual assault and was also charged with assault and battery for throwing his girlfried down a flight of stairs and then grabbing her head and slamming it down on the stairs. Suffice to say even at the max Hayward is far less risky a signing than Lance would be. If we do sign him I really hope he's put his past behind him, for his sake and ours.

[mrknowitall215]

Stephenson has been charged with sexual assault and was also charged with assault and battery for throwing his girlfried down a flight of stairs and then grabbing her head and slamming it down on the stairs. Suffice to say even at the max Hayward is far less risky a signing than Lance would be. If we do sign him I really hope he's put his past behind him, for his sake and ours.

Indeed, I would use all of that against him at the negotiating table despite the fact he's been on a clean slate 'off the court' over the past 4 years afterwards. No sarcasm, none at all

[amcoolio]

Can't we offer Lance an incentives laden contract? Like the initial contract is 3 years 37.5 million. But all star appearance bumps it up to 14M for the season. ECF appearance another 1M bonus. I think if we sign Lance and make it to the ECF he will be well worth 15 million a year, even if It wasn't solely on lance (maybe Vonleh has a Tim Duncan rookie year season out of nowhere for example)

[LofJ]

Can't we offer Lance an incentives laden contract? Like the initial contract is 3 years 37.5 million. But all star appearance bumps it up to 14M for the season. ECF appearance another 1M bonus. I think if we sign Lance and make it to the ECF he will be well worth 15 million a year, even if It wasn't solely on lance (maybe Vonleh has a Tim Duncan rookie year season out of nowhere for example)

Sounds like a good idea to me, incentive bonuses are almost always a good thing. I'm wary of Stephenson's past but I'm extremely excited about the defensive juggernaut our team would be with him in the lineup.

[Snidely FC]

Who's the biggest winner in free agency so far?
Thorpe: Gordon Hayward. And all the teams that have not overpaid for anyone (not yet, anyway). Winning the title means managing salaries up and down the roster; the teams that hold true to that philosophy will look smarter and better as the seasons unfold.

Who's the biggest loser in free agency so far?
Thorpe: Whoever pays Hayward's salary. He is a nice player. I'm a fan. But the odds of him playing into that kind of value are very small. His team will struggle to recover down the road from this mistake.

[yosemiteben]

Stephenson has been charged with sexual assault and was also charged with assault and battery for throwing his girlfried down a flight of stairs and then grabbing her head and slamming it down on the stairs. Suffice to say even at the max Hayward is far less risky a signing than Lance would be. If we do sign him I really hope he's put his past behind him, for his sake and ours.

Again, that was five years ago. He has not gotten into any off the court trouble since he entered the NBA, and he is five years in.

[LofJ]

Stephenson has been charged with sexual assault and was also charged with assault and battery for throwing his girlfried down a flight of stairs and then grabbing her head and slamming it down on the stairs. Suffice to say even at the max Hayward is far less risky a signing than Lance would be. If we do sign him I really hope he's put his past behind him, for his sake and ours.

Again, that was five years ago. He has not gotten into any off the court trouble since he entered the NBA, and he is five years in.

That's true, and for what it's worth the Bulls board is pretty convinced that we're going to offer him a huge deal.

[mrknowitall215]

Who's the biggest winner in free agency so far?
Thorpe: Gordon Hayward. And all the teams that have not overpaid for anyone (not yet, anyway). Winning the title means managing salaries up and down the roster; the teams that hold true to that philosophy will look smarter and better as the seasons unfold.

Who's the biggest loser in free agency so far?
Thorpe: Whoever pays Hayward's salary. He is a nice player. I'm a fan. But the odds of him playing into that kind of value are very small. His team will struggle to recover down the road from this mistake.

[Maneesh]

He definately prefers Charlotte because it is a better team and fit for him. You low balled him and we offered him closer to what he deserved. Nice try to screw your player over but he had the ability to avoid such BS. A player is worth what he knows he can get and you admitted you knew he could get it so you did try to screw him over but lost.

Can tell you don't watch much of us because we really haven't wasted any top 10 picks since Jordan took over and the only pick he was said to have pushed for was Kemba who was our best so far. MKG is a great defender which is very much overlooked and Biz was always a project. How is Kanter working out for you guys?

He "definately" prefers Charlotte. -- SOURCE??
How can you or me say we low balled him? We don't even know what the Jazz offered. I think 12 million would have been fair to pay him. 15 is over paying so I wouldn't say closer to what he is worth but yes he was smart to wait as was his agent.

DJ Augustin? Adam Morrison? Biyombo?

If you think MKG is so good look at this:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... 01&y2=2013

compare their per 36 minutes

Also Kanter is pretty good on Offense but I admit he isn't very good defensively and for a #3 pick in the draft he really isn't living up to my expectations.

Biz was a project from the start and a Cho pick.

You want to know which team he would prefer just look at the teams. Our team is a better fit and we are young and have a good chance to grow. We are a better team than you guys right now and he is a winner and wants to win.

Look at the real plus minus stats on MKG vs Kanter. MKG is best at the side of the ball that is least analyzed. Also compare that MKG has a positive PER vs his opponents vs Kanter who has a negative according to 82games.com.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_ ... position/9

http://www.82games.com/1314/13UTA15.HTM vs http://www.82games.com/1314/13CHA11.HTM

Look at the PER vs opponents per 48 towards the bottom. I am not doing this to attack the Jazz we are just in a better place right now and would be more attractive to someone looking to win. Have MKG to defend the other teams best perimeter wing would also be a bonus for Hayward. Ease his job on that end and let him concentrate on scoring.

Ummm you keep say over and over CHA better. You make playoff one time in how many year? Jazz have better young heros, many more than CHA. Just as Jazz fan does not know much about you you no nothing about Jazz. I think most scouts take our roster for future power ranks any day. I look it up.

[HornetJail]

He "definately" prefers Charlotte. -- SOURCE??
How can you or me say we low balled him? We don't even know what the Jazz offered. I think 12 million would have been fair to pay him. 15 is over paying so I wouldn't say closer to what he is worth but yes he was smart to wait as was his agent.

DJ Augustin? Adam Morrison? Biyombo?

If you think MKG is so good look at this:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... 01&y2=2013

compare their per 36 minutes

Also Kanter is pretty good on Offense but I admit he isn't very good defensively and for a #3 pick in the draft he really isn't living up to my expectations.

Biz was a project from the start and a Cho pick.

You want to know which team he would prefer just look at the teams. Our team is a better fit and we are young and have a good chance to grow. We are a better team than you guys right now and he is a winner and wants to win.

Look at the real plus minus stats on MKG vs Kanter. MKG is best at the side of the ball that is least analyzed. Also compare that MKG has a positive PER vs his opponents vs Kanter who has a negative according to 82games.com.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_ ... position/9

http://www.82games.com/1314/13UTA15.HTM vs http://www.82games.com/1314/13CHA11.HTM

Look at the PER vs opponents per 48 towards the bottom. I am not doing this to attack the Jazz we are just in a better place right now and would be more attractive to someone looking to win. Have MKG to defend the other teams best perimeter wing would also be a bonus for Hayward. Ease his job on that end and let him concentrate on scoring.

Ummm you keep say over and over CHA better. You make playoff one time in how many year? Jazz have better young heros, many more than CHA. Just as Jazz fan does not know much about you you no nothing about Jazz. I think most scouts take our roster for future power ranks any day. I look it up.

You realize that our entire core short of Al Jefferson is 24 and below with a ton of upside, right?

Kemba is 24
MKG is 20
Biz is 21
Zeller is 21
Vonleh is 18
Hairston is 21
if we get Lance, he's 23

This isn't even a win-now core. It's a build-for-the-future group that happens to be good enough to make the playoffs before they've even broken out.

[JDR720]

Charlotte fans are gonna say Charlotte is better and Utah fans are gonna say Utah is better, so its pretty pointless to argue about it.

[Hornet Mania]

Can't we offer Lance an incentives laden contract? Like the initial contract is 3 years 37.5 million. But all star appearance bumps it up to 14M for the season. ECF appearance another 1M bonus. I think if we sign Lance and make it to the ECF he will be well worth 15 million a year, even if It wasn't solely on lance (maybe Vonleh has a Tim Duncan rookie year season out of nowhere for example)

I like incentive-based contracts in the NFL, where the coaches basically dictate every play that is run and the players simply execute them. I'm not sure how well they would work in the NBA, where players have a lot more freedom and can chuck away with the only repercussion being a potential benching.

There were rumblings toward the end of last year that Lance was a little bit selfish after the all-star break, trying desperately to prove he was snubbed and that it irked some members of the team in the process. That Pacer collapse was a total mystery, so I'm not certain that rumor has any factual basis. But assuming it's true, putting escalator clauses like "make the all-star game" in Lance's deal would be a major incentive to chuck like crazy. Incentives based on team accomplishment? Now that's something I can definitely get behind. I think putting incentives grounded in All-NBA teams is also a nice option, that honor is much more selective than the ASG and if he were an egregious chucker he'd never sniff an All-NBA spot.

[Liver_Pooty]

He "definately" prefers Charlotte. -- SOURCE??
How can you or me say we low balled him? We don't even know what the Jazz offered. I think 12 million would have been fair to pay him. 15 is over paying so I wouldn't say closer to what he is worth but yes he was smart to wait as was his agent.

DJ Augustin? Adam Morrison? Biyombo?

If you think MKG is so good look at this:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... 01&y2=2013

compare their per 36 minutes

Also Kanter is pretty good on Offense but I admit he isn't very good defensively and for a #3 pick in the draft he really isn't living up to my expectations.

Biz was a project from the start and a Cho pick.

You want to know which team he would prefer just look at the teams. Our team is a better fit and we are young and have a good chance to grow. We are a better team than you guys right now and he is a winner and wants to win.

Look at the real plus minus stats on MKG vs Kanter. MKG is best at the side of the ball that is least analyzed. Also compare that MKG has a positive PER vs his opponents vs Kanter who has a negative according to 82games.com.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_ ... position/9

http://www.82games.com/1314/13UTA15.HTM vs http://www.82games.com/1314/13CHA11.HTM

Look at the PER vs opponents per 48 towards the bottom. I am not doing this to attack the Jazz we are just in a better place right now and would be more attractive to someone looking to win. Have MKG to defend the other teams best perimeter wing would also be a bonus for Hayward. Ease his job on that end and let him concentrate on scoring.

Ummm you keep say over and over CHA better. You make playoff one time in how many year? Jazz have better young heros, many more than CHA. Just as Jazz fan does not know much about you you no nothing about Jazz. I think most scouts take our roster for future power ranks any day. I look it up.

What

[BeesWax]

Ummm you keep say over and over CHA better. You make playoff one time in how many year? Jazz have better young heros, many more than CHA. Just as Jazz fan does not know much about you you no nothing about Jazz. I think most scouts take our roster for future power ranks any day. I look it up.

I am talking about the rosters as they are right now. If you take Hayward out of it and just look at which team is better and has more potential it is Charlotte. That is quite easy to see since the two best players other than Haywrd are both on Charlotte, Kemba and Jefferson. I know all about your team and I watch all the teams play over the year. You have two young bigs who are best at center and have fits playing together in Favors and Kanter. Burks and Burke are solid young guards but have a ways to go before they are on Kemba's level. You added two wings in Exum and Hood. Exum may play either SG or PG over time and is very young so lots of potential. Without Williams you have no PF on your roster that is ready to play heavy minutes right now. Jefferson plays a decent bit of your SF minutes and is just kind of finishing a career at the point. Again like I said earlier and the other Jazz fan agreed right now we are the better team. Our players are more proven and prepared to win now. If all your talent grows you will be solid in a couple of years but we are young and talented and in the easier East so we are more prepared to make the playoffs regularly that you.

[Fred Williamson]

Ummm you keep say over and over CHA better. You make playoff one time in how many year? Jazz have better young heros, many more than CHA. Just as Jazz fan does not know much about you you no nothing about Jazz. I think most scouts take our roster for future power ranks any day. I look it up.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPeDzRW9NIQ[/youtube]

[MalonesElbows]

Charlotte fans are gonna say Charlotte is better and Utah fans are gonna say Utah is better, so its pretty pointless to argue about it.

Trust me the Jazz won't be trying to poach MKG, Zeller, or even Walker. While Charlotte is desperate to poach Hayward and will probably try again next year with Burks if he is not extended. Actions speak louder than words, we have the better young players.

[KembaWalker]

Charlotte fans are gonna say Charlotte is better and Utah fans are gonna say Utah is better, so its pretty pointless to argue about it.

Trust me the Jazz won't be trying to poach MKG, Zeller, or even Walker. While Charlotte is desperate to poach Hayward and will probably try again next year with Burks if he is not extended. Actions speak louder than words, we have the better young players.

they won't be because nobody wants to sign there. Poor Gordon

[ARHornet]

Charlotte fans are gonna say Charlotte is better and Utah fans are gonna say Utah is better, so its pretty pointless to argue about it.

Trust me the Jazz won't be trying to poach MKG, Zeller, or even Walker. While Charlotte is desperate to poach Hayward and will probably try again next year with Burks if he is not extended. Actions speak louder than words, we have the better young players.

And you can trust me, we won't be giving Alec Burks the time of day.